We need a way to spend AP

Glory

As many long-term players have noticed, it is often easy to accumulate large quantities of gold, AP, and now Tel Var currencies due to the lack of things to spend "money" on. This problem has been mitigated in several ways: gold obviously being used to buy most items in the game (food, potions, player crafted gear, etc.), Tel Var used to buy top level materials and item sets, and AP used to purchased vendor bags, soul gems, siege, mid-level potions and now the incoming traveling merchant.

However, this patch there has not been an update to vendor bags (in fact, there aren't any V16 bags at all). In the most recent ESO Live (at 53:06 linked below), Eric Wrobel mentioned that they are hesitant to add vendor bags in addition to Rewards of the Worthy due to the aforementioned hoards of AP. I completely understand the hesitation, as he is right in mentioning that this would potentially shift the economy. However, I feel that this reluctance to add ways to spend AP will only further exacerbate the issue.

The reason that players have so much AP is because we have no reason to spend it. I buy siege for my group, I repair walls, I will likely use it to buy the occasional traveling merchant piece (even if it's BoP), but the only times my AP stores truly dwindled was when there was an opportunity to get good gear from vendor bags to either use myself or sell.

Even if ZOS decides that adding vendor bags is not the right option to spend AP, I strongly believe that there should be unique or valuable ways to spend AP (beyond a motif...), and recommend that these methods of spending AP provide some form of avenue of converting AP to gold.

Just my two (constructive but positive!) cents. I would love to hear other's thoughts on this, as my ideas obviously can be elaborated upon or argued against.

EDIT: Forgot to add link to the ESO Live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKu7GnANIO8

AlnilamE

Maybe they could add a vendor like the monster set vendor that shows up once a week or so and has one piece of a light set, a medium set and a heavy set (and maybe one of the weapon sets). So people who have a lot of AP wouldn't be able to get it right away, but they could be bought and resold to other players who don't have AP as well as used to supplement stuff that we get in the rewards of the worthy?

PriorityBalle

Jebus Christ they already added motifs you can buy for AP and re-sell, use or give to friends ( like me, send to @Ballehalle on EU server )

Zyle

They need to scale the damn bags already. We waited this long since VR16 was introduced but we're being punished because Wrobel didn't scale them from the beginning. This isn't much to ask for....customer service was able to give out a few VR16 items so it's definitely doable. ZOS will most likely just try and ignore this issue like they usually do .

Autolycus

@ebethke_ESO I like the idea of vr16 coffers, but I am curious as to why reselling motifs is not an acceptable means of converting AP to gold? It's quite lucrative in my experience, but I'm curious to hear your take on the matter.

Ourorboros

First, I agree with the premise of this thread. Zos has created a Catch-22 regarding AP: Zos doesn't want to sell v16 items for AP because players have saved so much AP, but since there is little to spend AP on, players have little choice but to save AP.

Zos needs to revamp the AP system. Even though it is used as a form of currency, unlike gold or Tel Var, it cannot be banked and used account wide. The one attempt at creating an AP sink, Akaviri motifs, is also problematic. The proposed price for Monster helms is 200k AP, yet single chapters of Akaviri cost as high as 500k AP. A full set of Akaviri is over 4,000k AP. The amount of time needed to save that much AP far outweighs the effort needed to get any other motif. According to zos, the average PVPers earns 10k AP/day (their number, right or wrong). It would take that average player 400 days of PVP to get a set of Akaviri, but only 20 days to get a Monster Helm. This just does not add up. I've worked hard for my AP, and I refused to spend it on the inflated AP cost of Akaviri chapters.

Zos needs to stop penalizing for saving AP when they created the problem by having nothing of value on which to spend AP.

AlnilamE wrote: »

Maybe they could add a vendor like the monster set vendor that shows up once a week or so and has one piece of a light set, a medium set and a heavy set (and maybe one of the weapon sets). So people who have a lot of AP wouldn't be able to get it right away, but they could be bought and resold to other players who don't have AP as well as used to supplement stuff that we get in the rewards of the worthy?

^^^This seems like a step in the right direction.

Recremen

Totally agree, we need options to utilize our AP and the current AP economy is just not doing it. Even after dozens of nerfs to AP generation, we're still being accused of "hoarding" AP. It's not hoarding, it's just that there's an upper limit on the useful things you can buy with AP. Want Akaviri motif? That's only like 5 million AP. I already bought it all once, I could buy it twice more if I really wanted to. Want Alliance War postions/food? No. No you don't. Want repair kits? Heck yeah! But you only need to carry around like 100 at a time, and by the time you've finished using them you can afford 10 times the original number because you've also been killing things the whole time. That's actually going to get even worse in the next patch, since repair kits will heal much more so you need to buy them less often. Want siege? Same issue. Unless you're spam dropping them and abandoning them, you're probably going to be able to afford 20x what you've already bought by the time you get back to the siege merchant.

I've heard that they're talking about adding AP spending caps, which is just ridonkulous, to be honest. That's not going to solve any issues, since the people earning lots of AP are going to keep earning lots of AP. If there are AP caps, these people will have greater and greater underutilized AP lying around, perpetually reminding them of how broken the PvP economy is. I know they only mentioned it in passing in ESO live, so let's not blow the idea out of proportion, but let's also make it clear that it won't solve any problems and will alienate good PvPers, of which there are a lot.

My proposition would be to add unrefined crafting materials to vendors. This would have a short-term effect of flooding the market with high level crafting materials, but it would eventually stabilize and it would also give hardcore PvPers a way to obtain gold tempers. Currently we have to wait until the end of the campaign rewards, deconstruct any of the undesired gold gear we get, and maybe come away with like, 2 gold tempers. Woo lad. A month of play for maybe 2 tempers. This change would provide parity between PvP-focused crafters and PvE-focused crafters, a parity that has been a long, long time coming.

cschwingeb14_ESO

10k AP for a bag that gives you the same exact reward as Rewards for the Worthy would go a long way towards reducing thise hoards of AP. So would a nice, direct way to turn AP into gold

Glory

PriorityBalle wrote: »

Jebus Christ they already added motifs you can buy for AP and re-sell, use or give to friends ( like me, send to @Ballehalle on EU server )

Autolycus wrote: »

@ebethke_ESO I like the idea of vr16 coffers, but I am curious as to why reselling motifs is not an acceptable means of converting AP to gold? It's quite lucrative in my experience, but I'm curious to hear your take on the matter.

I find that the AP motifs are a decent way to convert AP to gold. I personally am not a huge fan as those motifs have limited resale value (it is easier to find buyers for gear sets than it is for motifs, motifs do not have consistent demand).

I think that both PvP and PvE suffer from the lack of revenue options (Bind on Pickup for PvE, lack of PvP sellable gear options), but wanted to highlight the PvP AP concerns I have, as I am sure someone with more hardcore PvE experience could elaborate better on that.

Dagoth_Rac

I think we are overlooking the business side of this. You can earn AP, a lot of AP, through nothing but the base game. If people can get their gear without buying DLC, they will. If people do not buy DLC, ESO goes bankrupt. That is both the blessing and curse of Buy-2-Play. You no longer have to spend $15 a month to play game, but the business still needs roughly $15 a month per player to keep the servers running and continue development, etc. So if they are not forcing you to spend that $15/month and they are not forcing you to buy each DLC, they are going to strongly incentivize you to do so.

It is no coincidence that vendor bags kept getting upgrading when the game was subscription required and stopped as soon as the game became subscription optional. ZOS are not concerned about the in-game economy. They are concerned about the real economy. So while they are making some steps to give you real stuff (i.e., gear, not cosmetic items) to buy AP with, they will be limited steps. They cannot make AP too valuable to players because earning AP is not a money maker for ZOS.

Someone mentioned that Akaviri motif takes much more time to complete than other motifs like Xivkyn or Ancient Orc. Xivkyn and Ancient Orc require buying DLC to farm. Akaviri does not. Know what other motif takes forever to farm? Glass. Another motif that you can get from base game and do not need DLC.

PvE players are facing the same issue. Do you think the existing Trials and DSA did not scale to VR16 because that is too difficult a technological hurdle? Don't be naive. They are part of the base game and ZOS makes no continuing revenue from base game content. Starting with Thieves Guild, the weekly Trial reward will give a VR16 item in mail. But no VR16 gear will drop from actually running the old Trials and DSA. Similar to the new vendor in Cyrodiil, we are being given access to VR16 gear via old content, but in a very limited fashion.

ZOS is always thinking, "OK. We can't force people to subscribe or buy DLC. But what will make them really, really want to?" Many of ZOS' decisions will make more sense if you view it this way.

CP5

They could add minor locations to each factions section of cyrodiil, and players of that faction could invest AP into it to say, fortify these locations. 0 AP and you have a plot of land, throw some ap at it and you get a camp, then a watch tower, then say an encampment. These locations would shrink over time without ap and could work to give alternate pvp objectives and ap sinks at the same time.

Zyle

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I think we are overlooking the business side of this. You can earn AP, a lot of AP, through nothing but the base game. If people can get their gear without buying DLC, they will. If people do not buy DLC, ESO goes bankrupt. That is both the blessing and curse of Buy-2-Play. You no longer have to spend $15 a month to play game, but the business still needs roughly $15 a month per player to keep the servers running and continue development, etc. So if they are not forcing you to spend that $15/month and they are not forcing you to buy each DLC, they are going to strongly incentivize you to do so.

It is no coincidence that vendor bags kept getting upgrading when the game was subscription required and stopped as soon as the game became subscription optional. ZOS are not concerned about the in-game economy. They are concerned about the real economy. So while they are making some steps to give you real stuff (i.e., gear, not cosmetic items) to buy AP with, they will be limited steps. They cannot make AP too valuable to players because earning AP is not a money maker for ZOS.

Someone mentioned that Akaviri motif takes much more time to complete than other motifs like Xivkyn or Ancient Elf. Xivkyn and Ancient Elf require buying DLC to farm. Akaviri does not. Know what other motif takes forever to farm? Glass. Another motif that you can get from base game and do not need DLC.

PvE players are facing the same issue. Do you think the existing Trials and DSA did not scale to VR16 because that is too difficult a technological hurdle? Don't be naive. They are part of the base game and ZOS makes no continuing revenue from base game content. Starting with Thieves Guild, the weekly Trial reward will give a VR16 item in mail. But no VR16 gear will drop from actually running the old Trials and DSA. Similar to the new vendor in Cyrodiil, we are being given access to VR16 gear via old content, but in a very limited fashion.

ZOS is always thinking, "OK. We can't force people to subscribe or buy DLC. But what will make them really, really want to?" Many of ZOS' decisions will make more sense if you view it this way.

The sets we want them to scale already existed prior to any DLC. If ZOS can't figure out a genuine way to get people to buy DLC then it's on them. Gear shouldn't suffer to promote DLC sales. If that's truly the case then it's a sad sad day.

Autolycus

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I think we are overlooking the business side of this. You can earn AP, a lot of AP, through nothing but the base game. If people can get their gear without buying DLC, they will. If people do not buy DLC, ESO goes bankrupt. That is both the blessing and curse of Buy-2-Play. You no longer have to spend $15 a month to play game, but the business still needs roughly $15 a month per player to keep the servers running and continue development, etc. So if they are not forcing you to spend that $15/month and they are not forcing you to buy each DLC, they are going to strongly incentivize you to do so.

It is no coincidence that vendor bags kept getting upgrading when the game was subscription required and stopped as soon as the game became subscription optional. ZOS are not concerned about the in-game economy. They are concerned about the real economy. So while they are making some steps to give you real stuff (i.e., gear, not cosmetic items) to buy AP with, they will be limited steps. They cannot make AP too valuable to players because earning AP is not a money maker for ZOS.

Someone mentioned that Akaviri motif takes much more time to complete than other motifs like Xivkyn or Ancient Elf. Xivkyn and Ancient Elf require buying DLC to farm. Akaviri does not. Know what other motif takes forever to farm? Glass. Another motif that you can get from base game and do not need DLC.

PvE players are facing the same issue. Do you think the existing Trials and DSA did not scale to VR16 because that is too difficult a technological hurdle? Don't be naive. They are part of the base game and ZOS makes no continuing revenue from base game content. Starting with Thieves Guild, the weekly Trial reward will give a VR16 item in mail. But no VR16 gear will drop from actually running the old Trials and DSA. Similar to the new vendor in Cyrodiil, we are being given access to VR16 gear via old content, but in a very limited fashion.

ZOS is always thinking, "OK. We can't force people to subscribe or buy DLC. But what will make them really, really want to?" Many of ZOS' decisions will make more sense if you view it this way.

Thanks Rac, as always this was very insightful and worded well. You've given me a perspective that I believe is easily and often overlooked.

WalkingLegacy

They're hesitant to add ways to spend AP because of the mass amount of AP out there but mean while we amass more AP with nothing to spend it on.

I foresee a wipe of AP coming up.

dsalter

why not material purchases via AP as well so that thats a way for people without expansions to get them without doing pve.
burns AP, opens up another market, everyone wins

Yiko

When's the last time AP was relevant to the itemization process? Right before the game went B2P & DLC was released?
I think the lack of gear to spend AP on is indicative of a greater itemization issue or design choice. With the changes to the ease of access of top-end crafting mats, the number of crafting mats required to create a piece of gear increasing by 500-1000%, and the DLC RNG grind to acquire the most effective item pieces (Agility/Willpower Jewelry, Maelstrom Weapons), I think it's clear that ZOS intends for gear (especially DLC gear) to be a major entry-barrier to the highest level of competitive gameplay.

That said, we need to have a dialogue discussing alternative rewards for players who have participated and thrived in Cyrodiil PVP. The motifs aren't exactly ideal goods to facilitate AP --> gold conversions, as the motifs aren't high or consistent in demand. I'm really curious as to what the community proposes to properly and healthily incentivize spending AP.

ZOS needs to understand that their players want to feel rewarded for playing their game. You don't need or want to hit them with, "Yeah, we haven't given you anything substantial to spend AP on in the last 6 months, but let's talk about AP caps." That's just disgustingly out of touch.

Edit: Had this typed earlier, but my post has touched on & overlapped what a few others have already said. Whoooops.

bowmanz607

What gets me is they don't want people to get gear right away because of saving ap. However, is that not what a is for. Saving up for what you want? I have earned my gear via gaining ap. So now because I have more than others I should be penalized? Also, how else are we supposed to get rid of ap without having items to spend it on.

The solution seems simple to me. Put gear in vendor bags so people have to dump ap into rng. I spent 700k ap trying to get a single shadow walker ring back in the day and never even got it. Sure some people will get it sooner and some will have enough ap to get the set they want right away, but not without putting a large dent into their ap. Not only will this diminish the ap available significantly, but it will also increase the demand for ap allowing the market to get a kick start. Let's not Fogel how much ap will be spent on forward camps again. It's simple. Add new vendor bags in dark brotherhood and by the time the next dlc is out ap will be severely diminished. Zos always talks about the long term health if the game. Do this and not only will they signifiçtly deplete the ap in the market, but also not waste valuable resources implementing a new system for pvp gear.

Personofsecrets

monster helms

Jhunn

Nah. The problem is obviously us.

Bring the AP cap! NOW!

Contraptions

I don't really PVP much, but even I would like to see an expansion in terms of what AP is used for. ZOS has expressed that they are unwilling to sell V16 gear sets for AP (although they ironically introduce the monster head vendor in the same patch), Although I sort of see the logic here, since gear has uses in both PVE and PVP, my hope is that Alliance Points becomes much more useful in the Alliance War. The main reason why people have stockpiles of AP is the lack of sinks. Currently, what is AP used for? Namely:

- Siege weapons
- Siege repair/ wall repair
- Consumables
- Weapons and armour

Since the fourth one is out, I think the answer lies in consumable type items. For siege weapons/siege repair, perhaps things like new unique types of siege weapons available only by spending AP, the ability to boost wall/door health and defense temporarily (for example, a special repair kit that gives say, this section of wall 50% damage reduction for the next 30 seconds, thus delaying siegers or forcing them to relocate etc.) I would love to spend/donate AP to reinforce keeps or resources that our alliance owns, eg. spend AP to hire a guard to stand at this particular spot, spending AP to place more guards on the keep walls and in the keep interior, spending AP to give guard NPCs buffs, spending AP to upgrade keeps and resources, spending AP to hire stronger, unique guards (imagine hiring an IC sewers roamer flag-bearer boss type guard to stand on the flag, all decked out in AD/DC/EP style armour with the eagle/lion/dragon on his/her back. Oh man...) When town/POI/district capture comes out, this system of upgrading could become even bigger and more relevant

When I say donate AP, I mean that players can contribute to a "pool" of AP. For example, if the keep guard upgrade consts 100,000 AP, players can choose to contribute any amount of AP to that pool, and when it fills, the upgrade happens. The current Akaviri motif method fails as an AP sink, since you are subtracting 100, 250, 500k chunks of AP at a time from ONE PLAYER, so anyone with less than the minimum 100k will not be participating in the sink at all. Under the donation method, any amount can be subtracted at any time, thus you can potentially drain AP from everyone, not just the select few that happen to have hundreds of thousands of AP. And from a purely psychological perspective, I'm much more willing to make say a thousand dollar donation split into many small 10 dollar donations over time, as compared to one big 1000 dollar chunk. The "impact" is lessened in a way, which encourages people to contribute, which is exactly what a sink needs.

For consumables, I don't think the current crap food and drinks is the way to go, since if a clearly superior alternative is available from PVE, why would anyone buy these? No, add unique bonues to potions/consumables in Cyro that can't be found anywhere else, like unique combinations of bonuses. Or even some crazy idea like set potions. Something must be better than what can be found elsewhere, otherwise no one will EVER buy from the vendors.

I don't know, as I said I don't PVP much and if the "value" of AP never increases it doesn't affect me much. Still, PVP is a part of the game and players should be rewarded with PVP-related rewards. I'm not a dev like Wrobel or Rich or Wheeler but I think that this is something that needs to be improved. It is possible to create AP sinks that don't unbalance the game overall. You just need to be a bit more creative with it.