Catalyst (NB passive) Feedback

ThatNeonZebraAgain

From the patch notes:

Catalyst: Increased the amount of Ultimate you gain when drinking a potion to 10/20 Ultimate at Ranks I/II from 6/12 Ultimate.

A buff to this passive was sorely needed. In fact, it was something I pointed out in my response to Wrobel's thread asking for feedback on class abilities. Despite this change, my main points in that comment still stand.

Of course, more ultimate is helpful for all NB builds so in one sense it is an improvement. However...

1. The value of the passive is now equivalent to 6-7 seconds of a Major Heroism buff, which is up from 2-3 seconds from Live. This is still quite weak compared to most other class passives that bring a lot more utility/value. In the comment linked above, I suggested that the least effective way to buff Catalyst was simply by increasing the Ult return. Why? Because it doesn't address the other issues below:
2. The 45-second potion cooldown still is the biggest factor negatively affecting the passive's usefulness and value.
3. Potion passives remain the only abilities in the game that have a hidden gold cost. Whether you use expensive crafted potions or dropped ones, it nonetheless is tied in some way to your coffer. While you would use potions anyways, and thus this passive allows you to get more for your money, so to speak, the passive's value is still too low to really make this kind of balancing mechanic balanced.
4. Most importantly, imho, Catalyst still does not fulfill a 'need' of the class as it did before Update 1.6 when Potion Effectiveness bonuses were removed from both NBs and Argonians. NBs don't need help generating ultimate, we are fine on that front. Before Update 1.6, the NB Catalyst passive, combined with the 30-second potion cooldown (which some players would get as low as 15 seconds if they used 3 potion speed jewelry glyphs) gave NBs their only reliable form of burst self-healing through more powerful and more frequent potions. It is true that NBs have several decent healing tools, however they are either HoTs or situational, requiring multiple enemies or killing your enemy first in order to get decent healing. These are not helpful against the high burst damage meta of PvP and endgame PvE, and thus the need for some kind of burst self-heal is still important. The potion cooldown and gold cost are balances to this.
5. It still doesn't stack or directly complement Argonians' Amphibious passive, meaning the undercutting of the one unique class/race synergy for Argonians still hasn't been rectified. To get a sense of this, imagine Dunmers losing their bonus to fire damage and thus their synergy with DK abilities.

There really are a ton of ways to improve Catalyst, but here are some suggestions for useful fixes that keep Catalyst tied to potion use since that seems to be important. Again, I'm not advocating for all of them, but individually or in some combination they would address the issues with the passive I bulletted above:

• Reduce potion cooldown by 10 seconds. This would help with making potions' burst heals and other shorter effects more available, as well as make potion speed enchants actually a possibility again for some builds. If a player used all 3 potion speed enchants, and thus sacrificing a large chunk of regen or damage (the most common and currently powerful jewelry enchants), they could get the potion cooldown to 20 seconds. It would also have the secondary effect of making Argonians' Amphibious passive more valuable. Combining this cooldown with one of the other changes below would bring back a lot of the utility lost in the changes from 1.6.
• Take the Nourishing constellation that was removed from the Champion System and swap it in, which would increase power of healing from potions. The downside of this is that it provides less utility than ult or potion cooldown because it would only affect potion heals. It would also be subject to the Cyrodiil debuffs.
• Replicate Argonians' Amphibious passive (stacking additively), but with a higher % of resources returned since it is a class passive, and not a racial passive (for reference, the Catalyst's old value was twice that of the same one Argonians had; however, I still think the values of the Argonian passive are slightly too low, especially given the current cooldown).
• Take a cue from the new Alchemist set and buff damage or some other equally valuable stat (eg regen or max stat) on potion use. However, this gets away from fulfilling a need of the class. NBs don't have a problem with burst damage so I don't really need for giving us more of that.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Ghost-Shot

You get 20 ultimate for drinking a potion, I will gladly trade my DK health regen passive for this. There is a NB in my guild who with the combination of combat frenzy 2/ catalyst and the night blade ult that gives ult on kills can damn near perma bats with more than 10 players around. This passive needs no buffs and those it already received were really not needed.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

You get 20 ultimate for drinking a potion, I will gladly trade my DK health regen passive for this. There is a NB in my guild who with the combination of combat frenzy 2/ catalyst and the night blade ult that gives ult on kills can damn near perma bats with more than 10 players around. This passive needs no buffs and those it already received were really not needed.

Poor passives for one class don't justify poor passives for another. In its current state, health regen is very underpowered so, yes, ultimate gain would almost always be preferable to health regen. Maybe you should push to get that passive improved?

Also, I said that the new version of Catalyst is better, but my post was about how it still misses the mark for what it replaced last year and this relates to the class and larger systems that affect the utility and gameplay value of the passive. I honestly don't expect anything to come of it, but this is what the PTS is for: feedback.

Helluin

I agree with you about Catalyst (but also about the tank issues topic you wrote).
It's since 1.6 PTS that we are giving feedbacks for something different for Catalyst or the previous version of it.
I wouldn't expect too much.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

@Wrobel

Any more feedback fellow NBs? I know we have bigger fish to fry with the nerfs to stealth/invisibility and Siphoning Attacks, but I just can't get over the bad taste that Update 1.6 left in my Argonian NB's mouth...

CP5

Catalyst isn't the NB's primary ultimate generation passive. That passive is transfer (per syphoning skill damage). Buffing catalyst, with soul harvest would leave nightblades with insane ultimate generation.

Master_Kas

I'd rather have the potion effictivness from pre 1.6 than it's current and PTS form.

Autolycus

I don't think we need any more ultimate gain as NBs, so I can agree with pretty much everyone here on that aspect. I do find the Catalyst passive to be a bit wanting, however. I do miss the cooldown reduction on potions, as I used those quite a bit back in the day to NB tank Hiath in vDSA, which was back when virtually everyone hated having a NB tank, preferring templars or DKs for their stronger burst heal capabilities. Very few NB tanks were capable of self-healing through Hiath's mechanic in that day, but it was possible. One method of accomplishing this was through the use of shortened potion cooldowns.

Darkonflare15

Autolycus wrote: »

I don't think we need any more ultimate gain as NBs, so I can agree with pretty much everyone here on that aspect. I do find the Catalyst passive to be a bit wanting, however. I do miss the cooldown reduction on potions, as I used those quite a bit back in the day to NB tank Hiath in vDSA, which was back when virtually everyone hated having a NB tank, preferring templars or DKs for their stronger burst heal capabilities. Very few NB tanks were capable of self-healing through Hiath's mechanic in that day, but it was possible. One method of accomplishing this was through the use of shortened potion cooldowns.

I think they added more ultimate gain for that passive so NB healers can use their healing ultimates faster.

Kartalin

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

You get 20 ultimate for drinking a potion, I will gladly trade my DK health regen passive for this. There is a NB in my guild who with the combination of combat frenzy 2/ catalyst and the night blade ult that gives ult on kills can damn near perma bats with more than 10 players around. This passive needs no buffs and those it already received were really not needed.

Yep, if I activate bats in a good sized melee and don't get wrecked immediately from prox/ulti dump or something then I usually have about 90% of the ult needed for more bats. The extra from the passive may put me over the top.

This assumes manageable weapon swaps of course.

Brrrofski

I honestly think that passive is pretty op.

I can just chug useless health potions so I prep an ultimate for every fight. Magica NBs get ultimate during compat from cripple, sap essence or Swallow soul too. Who isn't using one of them?

I'm obviously happy it got a buff (more frequent bat swarm, improved det and sap combos) but it definitely doesn't need any other buffs.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

Catalyst isn't the NB's primary ultimate generation passive. That passive is transfer (per syphoning skill damage). Buffing catalyst, with soul harvest would leave nightblades with insane ultimate generation.

Transfer is a Magic Nightblade passive no stamblade does Siphon damage out side of Soul Tether.

Soul Harvest is good but Incapacitating Strikes has a better secondary effect the Knockdown has saved me more time then I count. Light attack and Heroic Slash gives far better ultimate generation then anything else can.

Two ultimate generating attacks plus 15% damage reduction and a snare all of that with an attacks that's only 10% weaker then Surprise attack. Mark > medium attack > Heroic Slash is a super Ultimate generator and it you don't even need to kill to get that bonus unlike Soul Harvest.

PlagueMonk

Since you seem to be a NB champion of the cause there are 2 more issues I want to point out.....

1) Magicka Flood passive - would be nice if Stamblades had access to a stamina version of this because 8% more magicka does them little good. Wish I could reach 40k+ stamina like mag Sorc seem to be able to do easily.

2) Relentless Focus - The minor berserk does not change either weapon or spell damage in the info bar. How do I know it's even working if I can't see some visible buff?

Elijah_Crow

Was really hoping to see something better done with this passive.

davey1107

PlagueMonk - good analysis. As a stam NB, my take over the last year is that updates have hit, hit, hit resources, whether through potion cool down debuffs or changes to cloak or other changes. Maybe these are in response to internal data showing NBs performing better, or maybe it's in response to the class warfare we have in ESO.

As the changes stack up, put together they create a total resource crisis for a stamblade that I don't experience with any of my other toons. Perhaps others will disagree, but here's a reliable real world scenario (real digital world...whatever) I run. I level often in the Wrothgar public dungeons due to the mob numbers.

My stam NB is my worst resource performer, even using nonstop potions, all resource abilities available, etc. If I run hard through mobs with my buddy, I'll have to stop to "catch my breath" after 2-4 battles. By contrast, my Sorc has endless magicka, my magblade has endless magicka and my stam Templar fares fine.

This resource crisis comes at the same time they're seeking to downgrade the ability to sneak in for a quick kill. Sneak attacks continue to grow slower and less powerful, extending battles longer...often past the ability to regenerate enough resources to weather them.

The TG update doesn't look promising. ZOS has opted, as far as I can tell, to offer some very cheap, very powerful abilities that will further suck up a NBs resources. Assuming I hit the more powerful Magelight in PVP, I have now wasted the cost of the cloak (if applicable), as well as any cost to attempt to recloak as the timer expires.

I haven't felt that NBs are particularly OP or UP, but they are getting strangled with bad resource allotment. Generally, the long term plan I'd like to see for NBs is returning them more to the assassin class - either let them cloak forever and sneak in with medium powered hits, or if gimping cloak give them a route to getting health way, way down on an initial assault.

And not to stir up trouble, because I know class discussions can be contentious, but I still hold that what makes people upset about NBs isn't that we're overpowered - it's that others don't adapt well to NB fighting tactics. How many complaints about NBs in these forums involve a scenario where the complainer got killed while traveling alone out in the open? Everyone has sneak. And yet, there's this constant scream to nerf, nerf, nerf because people don't like being assassinated in a game that specifically features an assassin class.

Helluin

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Since you seem to be a NB champion of the cause there are 2 more issues I want to point out.....

1) Magicka Flood passive - would be nice if Stamblades had access to a stamina version of this because 8% more magicka does them little good. Wish I could reach 40k+ stamina like mag Sorc seem to be able to do easily.

2) Relentless Focus - The minor berserk does not change either weapon or spell damage in the info bar. How do I know it's even working if I can't see some visible buff?

1) I agree that it could be more beneficial, but that 8% magicka can be good for utilities (more in PvP or solo contents).
Even with a passive buff to stamina, the problem is that Siphoning Attacks and Soul Tether are the only skills good for a stamina build, but for rare occasional utilities.
Power Extraction is magic damage, so it can't be a valid alternative to other AoE skills, especially with the changement in Thaumaturge. It should be changed into physical damage and have something to make it competitive with Steel Tornado.
I still think that a stamina morph of Cripple would be really beneficial for some builds and more diversification.

2) Minor Berserk increases general damage, not Weapon or Spell Power. You see that in the tooltips of skills or while doing damage.


Catalyst: a weaker version of DK's Battle Roar or something similar to Amphibious for health, magicka and stamina would be fantastic.
It would be also really synergic for Argonian NBs but good for every race because of the lack of a proper healing and for resource management, something that is important for every role, especially with the changement to Siphoning Attacks.

RobboEU

I run a Magicka Nightblade and don't think this is needed with assault 10 I get 20 ultimate for a kill 20!! Drinking a potion gives me 12, soul harvest costs me 50.. 50 ultimate I get a kill with it and I literally have it back after the next light attack..

Autolycus

Eldruf wrote: »

I run a Magicka Nightblade and don't think this is needed with assault 10 I get 20 ultimate for a kill 20!! Drinking a potion gives me 12, soul harvest costs me 50.. 50 ultimate I get a kill with it and I literally have it back after the next light attack..

This is true, but you're talking specifically about PvP. In PvE, Assault passives don't do anything; however, Soul Harvest and Catalyst do still provide this benefit. I find that whether I'm dps, tank, or healer I do not have issues getting my ultimate frequently, even when not using Soul Harvest.

Alcast

buff nb and sorc tyvm. Nerf DK and templar

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Alcast wrote: »

buff nb and sorc tyvm. Nerf DK and templar

Na, just make everyone differently awesome by not having worthless abilities

PlagueMonk

Helluin wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Since you seem to be a NB champion of the cause there are 2 more issues I want to point out.....

1) Magicka Flood passive - would be nice if Stamblades had access to a stamina version of this because 8% more magicka does them little good. Wish I could reach 40k+ stamina like mag Sorc seem to be able to do easily.

2) Relentless Focus - The minor berserk does not change either weapon or spell damage in the info bar. How do I know it's even working if I can't see some visible buff?

1) I agree that it could be more beneficial, but that 8% magicka can be good for utilities (more in PvP or solo contents).
Even with a passive buff to stamina, the problem is that Siphoning Attacks and Soul Tether are the only skills good for a stamina build, but for rare occasional utilities.
Power Extraction is magic damage, so it can't be a valid alternative to other AoE skills, especially with the changement in Thaumaturge. It should be changed into physical damage and have something to make it competitive with Steel Tornado.
I still think that a stamina morph of Cripple would be really beneficial for some builds and more diversification.

2) Minor Berserk increases general damage, not Weapon or Spell Power. You see that in the tooltips of skills or while doing damage.


Catalyst: a weaker version of DK's Battle Roar or something similar to Amphibious for health, magicka and stamina would be fantastic.
It would be also really synergic for Argonian NBs but good for every race because of the lack of a proper healing and for resource management, something that is important for every role, especially with the changement to Siphoning Attacks.

Took me a min but it backends every ability that has a damage listing, changing every number on the fly. Guess my confusion comes with the fact it lists both weapon/spell as "damage". Didn't it they used to say power instead?

And while +8% magicka is better than nothing, for Stamina users I would MUCH prefer boosting my resource pool which also boosts my damage. Also +8% of 12k is not nearly as god as +8& of 30k (thats 960 magicka vs 2400 stamina)

Now I'm not suggesting REMOVING it, since there are plenty of magicka NBs out there but Stamina users should get a similar gain.

It should be relabeled "Resource Flood" and be tied to the powers you choose and split up that 8% between chosen skills. So if I pick nothing but NB stamina morphs then its 8% stamina buff. If all magicka, +8% magicka. And if you choose some of both it will split the % so running 1 magicka and 3 stamina means +2% magicka and +6% stamina.

And while we are on the subject, the passive "Executioner" should restore stamina for stamina users. I really don't need the pool I seldom use restored, I NEED the resource that is doing all the damage restored.