Balance Thoughts

Elevenstorm

What if we changed AoE's to completely remove Sorc's Ward's on hit, removed DK's wings on hit, and reduce a templars next heal by 50%. A couple thoughts to change current abilities.

Revealing Weakness Flare
Launch a flare to expose stealthed enemies in the target area for 5 seconds.
Exposed enemies cannot return to stealth for 8 seconds.
Removes Ward
Removes DK Wings
Reduces Templar Healing by 50%
Flare lingers and reveals enemies that enter it. Also, The abilities it removes can not be activated again. Templar Heals are reduced by 50% while in the area.

There could be a magicka based one in Support skill line and a stamina based one in the Assault skill line.

Thoughts?

(Yes, I main a NB)

Derra

Why remove every defense completely but let templars still selfheal?

Elevenstorm

Good point, because aoe's still allow the other classes to reactivate their defensive abilities cloak, wings, and ward, I felt the ability would be too strong if it locked out templars healing completely. For the flare, the ability could lock templars completely out of healing while in the area.

IxskullzxI

These forums are a joke.

Derra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icu1o0WWf54

Btw that´s how cyrodiil would look with your proposed changes implemented

Elevenstorm

In reality this is an attempt to bring up the point that this is how all aoe's work on NB's defensive ability. Cloak is completely removed with all aoe's. Why there is a cornucopia of counters to one class's defensive ability and not others is a mystery to me. Also, so much whine to one ability that has such counters. Do players not want to slot one skill to counter another as compared to crying about it? With the upcoming changes to cloak there will be even more powerful counters to cloak. Magelight i'm looking at you.

Derra

Elevenstorm wrote: »

In reality this is an attempt to bring up the point that this is how all aoe's work on NB's defensive ability. Cloak is completely removed with all aoe's. Why there is a cornucopia of counters to one class's defensive ability and not others is a mystery to me. Also, so much whine to one ability that has such counters. Do players not want to slot one skill to counter another as compared to crying about it? With the upcoming changes to cloak there will be even more powerful counters to cloak. Magelight i'm looking at you.

That might be because turning invisible to your opponent is ultimately more powerful than any other defensive ability.

Elevenstorm

Is that not the Nightblade way? This is how they were designed. If we make one classes defensive ability half as effective but leave all others untouched what does that do to balance?

Derra

Elevenstorm wrote: »

Is that not the Nightblade way? This is how they were designed. If we make one classes defensive ability half as effective but leave all others untouched what does that do to balance?

They were designed in a way that´s almost impossible to balance correctly. ZOS will probably never get that right bc invisibility is such a powerful tool

Stupid design decision if you ask me. It´s always gonna switch between too strong and too weak.

Elevenstorm

Maybe ZOS could implement more hard counters to the other classes defensive abilities. I'm fine with the change to cloak, even I will admit the removal of all dots was OP. I would sit under oils and remove all oil dots with one cloak. Now, as a stamblade, I will need to run with a templar/magicka user that has purifying ritual or purge. Promotes smart group play. But the fact that there are so many counters to cloak and not to others is still unbalanced.

Elevenstorm

Derra wrote: »

Elevenstorm wrote: »

Is that not the Nightblade way? This is how they were designed. If we make one classes defensive ability half as effective but leave all others untouched what does that do to balance?

They were designed in a way that´s almost impossible to balance correctly. ZOS will probably never get that right bc invisibility is such a powerful tool

Stupid design decision if you ask me. It´s always gonna switch between too strong and too weak.

This we can agree on, haha when it was broken it was extremely weak. Back when it was 7/7 LA and Resto staff or gtfo. The ability broke on dots even when you chose dark cloak.

xAPxZeez

I'm against this idea I play a magicka sorc and I do not stack damage shields. The problem is all the stacking. Remove the shield stacking and here is how. When you cast a damage shield if the new one has a bigger number than it replaces it.

Cast hardened ward get hit a few times let's say it's got 2000 left cast a different larger damage shield then it replaces it.

Each damage shield is physical, magical or both. Like damage shields no longer stack.

Hardened ward is both it would no longer stack with either.

Because of this proposed change I think all damage shields should get a 20% increase in strength.

bikerangelo

So you want a spammable ability to act as a Negate? Regardless of whether or not this is a joke, it's a little melodramatic.
Nightblades do not need cloak, and they're definitely not the only class that got a nerf to their defenses. All that's going to change is that ganking will actually have a risk component and nightblades will need to build more towards survivability and sustain rather than burst damage. I saw a nightblade running around Cyrodiil without any gear on, and when I asked them why, they said "because it makes this game hard."
ZOS already said they're reducing the radius of Radiant Magelight, so be grateful they're actually listening to your class' complaints.

Elevenstorm

A spammable ability that negates cloak, sounds like every aoe currently in the game. Why is there not one for other defenses? I agree that cloak is more powerful but that is also the reason there are so many counters. Potions, aoe's, and specific abilities (magelight, flare) to negate cloak. Healing is negated (partially) by major defile, and will be getting a 5 pc set to reduce it even further (if you attack said person wearing set). Shields have shieldbreaker as a counter as well as the new changes to CP and dots. But none of these negate/remove the buff from the user as it does to cloak. The new magelight change will PREVENT nightblades from utilizing their defensive ability for 5 seconds as long as they are within in range. All one will need to negate cloak indefinitely while fighting a nightblade is magelight and a gap closer.

Reveal the nightblade. He/she can't cloak for 5 seconds. If they start to retreat, no problem! Gap close and they can't use cloak for another 5 sec. Etc. Etc. This will push NB's into a burst and burst only style of fight causing more one shot builds and ganking. This is the type of pvp we can look forward to.

Elevenstorm

What about a compromise. Institute a cooldown on the removal. Once cloak/ward/wings/Healing has been removed and negated for 5 seconds a cooldown of 15 seconds in which the abilities can't be negated. This way one would have to choose offense or defense and when to attack or turtle up.

Spacemonkey

Elevenstorm wrote: »

In reality this is an attempt to bring up the point that this is how all aoe's work on NB's defensive ability. Cloak is completely removed with all aoe's. Why there is a cornucopia of counters to one class's defensive ability and not others is a mystery to me. Also, so much whine to one ability that has such counters. Do players not want to slot one skill to counter another as compared to crying about it? With the upcoming changes to cloak there will be even more powerful counters to cloak. Magelight i'm looking at you.

You need counters against Templars?

dodgehopper_ESO

Derra wrote: »

Elevenstorm wrote: »

Is that not the Nightblade way? This is how they were designed. If we make one classes defensive ability half as effective but leave all others untouched what does that do to balance?

They were designed in a way that´s almost impossible to balance correctly. ZOS will probably never get that right bc invisibility is such a powerful tool

Stupid design decision if you ask me. It´s always gonna switch between too strong and too weak.

Which is why I think it is a good idea for them to offer a 'poor mans' Cloak in a thieves guild skill line. They could then beef up bone shield to be a real shield, and voila, NB would have no cause to complain, and would still be easily the best cloaker. Not to mention bone shield actually looks really cool on an NB.

Elevenstorm

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Elevenstorm wrote: »

In reality this is an attempt to bring up the point that this is how all aoe's work on NB's defensive ability. Cloak is completely removed with all aoe's. Why there is a cornucopia of counters to one class's defensive ability and not others is a mystery to me. Also, so much whine to one ability that has such counters. Do players not want to slot one skill to counter another as compared to crying about it? With the upcoming changes to cloak there will be even more powerful counters to cloak. Magelight i'm looking at you.

You need counters against Templars?

I didn't want to leave them out of the equation.... ZOS is the counter to Templars.....

dodgehopper_ESO

Elevenstorm wrote: »

A spammable ability that negates cloak, sounds like every aoe currently in the game. Why is there not one for other defenses? I agree that cloak is more powerful but that is also the reason there are so many counters. Potions, aoe's, and specific abilities (magelight, flare) to negate cloak. Healing is negated (partially) by major defile, and will be getting a 5 pc set to reduce it even further (if you attack said person wearing set). Shields have shieldbreaker as a counter as well as the new changes to CP and dots. But none of these negate/remove the buff from the user as it does to cloak. The new magelight change will PREVENT nightblades from utilizing their defensive ability for 5 seconds as long as they are within in range. All one will need to negate cloak indefinitely while fighting a nightblade is magelight and a gap closer.

Reveal the nightblade. He/she can't cloak for 5 seconds. If they start to retreat, no problem! Gap close and they can't use cloak for another 5 sec. Etc. Etc. This will push NB's into a burst and burst only style of fight causing more one shot builds and ganking. This is the type of pvp we can look forward to.

This isn't the only skill in the NB toolset. Cloak is nice but my main nightblade uses it mostly for thieving, and somewhat for positioning. It can be a part of survivability but if you're in the mix you can't rely on it anyway. It depends a lot on how you're built honestly. If you're a SapTank or DPS build the nerfs to cloak really dont' effect you much. All that being said I think they should expand what Bone Shield does, and offer a poor man's cloak to everyone else. Problem solved.

Elevenstorm

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Elevenstorm wrote: »

A spammable ability that negates cloak, sounds like every aoe currently in the game. Why is there not one for other defenses? I agree that cloak is more powerful but that is also the reason there are so many counters. Potions, aoe's, and specific abilities (magelight, flare) to negate cloak. Healing is negated (partially) by major defile, and will be getting a 5 pc set to reduce it even further (if you attack said person wearing set). Shields have shieldbreaker as a counter as well as the new changes to CP and dots. But none of these negate/remove the buff from the user as it does to cloak. The new magelight change will PREVENT nightblades from utilizing their defensive ability for 5 seconds as long as they are within in range. All one will need to negate cloak indefinitely while fighting a nightblade is magelight and a gap closer.

Reveal the nightblade. He/she can't cloak for 5 seconds. If they start to retreat, no problem! Gap close and they can't use cloak for another 5 sec. Etc. Etc. This will push NB's into a burst and burst only style of fight causing more one shot builds and ganking. This is the type of pvp we can look forward to.

This isn't the only skill in the NB toolset. Cloak is nice but my main nightblade uses it mostly for thieving, and somewhat for positioning. It can be a part of survivability but if you're in the mix you can't rely on it anyway. It depends a lot on how you're built honestly. If you're a SapTank or DPS build the nerfs to cloak really dont' effect you much. All that being said I think they should expand what Bone Shield does, and offer a poor man's cloak to everyone else. Problem solved.

Saying this isn't the only skill in the NB toolset is like saying Hardened Ward isn't the only tool in the Sorcs toolset. While true, it still does not support the idea that it is ok to destroy that playstyle

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Elevenstorm wrote: »

What if we changed AoE's to completely remove Sorc's Ward's on hit, removed DK's wings on hit, and reduce a templars next heal by 50%. A couple thoughts to change current abilities.

Revealing Weakness Flare
Launch a flare to expose stealthed enemies in the target area for 5 seconds.
Exposed enemies cannot return to stealth for 8 seconds.
Removes Ward
Removes DK Wings
Reduces Templar Healing by 50%
Flare lingers and reveals enemies that enter it. Also, The abilities it removes can not be activated again. Templar Heals are reduced by 50% while in the area.

There could be a magicka based one in Support skill line and a stamina based one in the Assault skill line.

Thoughts?

(Yes, I main a NB)

while interesting in theory, having every inch of pvp covered in yet another ground aoe seems just terrible, visually and fps-wise

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Elevenstorm wrote: »

In reality this is an attempt to bring up the point that this is how all aoe's work on NB's defensive ability. Cloak is completely removed with all aoe's. Why there is a cornucopia of counters to one class's defensive ability and not others is a mystery to me. Also, so much whine to one ability that has such counters. Do players not want to slot one skill to counter another as compared to crying about it? With the upcoming changes to cloak there will be even more powerful counters to cloak. Magelight i'm looking at you.

because your still standing in the damage area takeing damage, its not exactly mind bending.

ps ill be laughing at all the magelight haters when they realize that peircing mark makes cloak COMPLETELY UNCASTABLE lolz

Elevenstorm

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

Elevenstorm wrote: »

In reality this is an attempt to bring up the point that this is how all aoe's work on NB's defensive ability. Cloak is completely removed with all aoe's. Why there is a cornucopia of counters to one class's defensive ability and not others is a mystery to me. Also, so much whine to one ability that has such counters. Do players not want to slot one skill to counter another as compared to crying about it? With the upcoming changes to cloak there will be even more powerful counters to cloak. Magelight i'm looking at you.

because your still standing in the damage area takeing damage, its not exactly mind bending.

ps ill be laughing at all the magelight haters when they realize that peircing mark makes cloak COMPLETELY UNCASTABLE lolz

No, not mind bending at all. Your comment fails to address the issue of other class defense counters. Why are there not equivalent counters to other class defensive abilities?

ps. We won't have to worry about vampires either as they'll be locked out of using their invisibility.