Do you think Battle Spirit should affect health/percentage based skills?

Soris

Since battle spirit isn't going anywhere, I wonder how the community thinks about this issue. Please be objective. Affected skills are Blazing Shield, Dragon Blood and Bone Shield.

(my original intention was to open this thread in pts subforum, but since polls aren't allowed in there, i opened this in here with a redirect link in the pts subforum. But this will be the main topic. Once there are enough votes, i'll tag devs.)

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel

Anhedonie

No, it should not affect them

Like they aren't bad enough.

laksikus

Anhedonie wrote: »

Like they aren't bad enough.

Dude, op wants to make them better.
25% would make them alot better

Soris

No, it should not affect them

laksikus wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

Like they aren't bad enough.

Dude, op wants to make them better.
25% would make them alot better

I think he got it right. He's just being sarcastic.

Just to make it clear, No = no more 50% nerf on them

jcasini222ub17_ESO

No, it should not affect them

Err I think battle spirit as it is now is totally flawed from a design perspective. We are trying to maniuplate outputs after they have already become outputs. Most people complain about spam right? Attack/heal skill spam so now we have a stupid battle spirit system and skills being redesigned. Screw all that.

Remove battle spirit as is, revert the idiotic changes to blocking and streak... replace with new battle spirit.

New battle spirit- 'while is cyro all skills/actions cost x percent more'.... im thinking x is 20 to 40 percent more, including stuff like ults, sprinting, rolling blocking. In effect this limits spam of all abilites, cant spam if resource pool is zero.

O I fully understand how much some skills will cost but I really dont care, I would really prefer higher skill costs than a bevy of skills rendered useless.

joleda4ub17_ESO

No, it should not affect them

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Err I think battle spirit as it is now is totally flawed from a design perspective. We are trying to maniuplate outputs after they have already become outputs. Most people complain about spam right? Attack/heal skill spam so now we have a stupid battle spirit system and skills being redesigned. Screw all that.

Remove battle spirit as is, revert the idiotic changes to blocking and streak... replace with new battle spirit.

New battle spirit- 'while is cyro all skills/actions cost x percent more'.... im thinking x is 20 to 40 percent more, including stuff like ults, sprinting, rolling blocking. In effect this limits spam of all abilites, cant spam if resource pool is zero.

O I fully understand how much some skills will cost but I really dont care, I would really prefer higher skill costs than a bevy of skills rendered useless.

^^^ This is a good idea.

My take on Battle Spirit (BS): I believe the intent of BS is to increase the time-to-kill so that people die slower. Time-to-kill is actually decreased (people die faster) because glass cannon builds are given free hit points, which allows those builds to place even a bigger focus on damage. BS rewards builds that put no points into Health more than those that do. BS also penalizes races with +Health bonuses while not touching races with +Stamina or +Magicka bonuses. Battle Spirit is BS.

A better system IMO would remove the bonus health and do one or both of the following:

1. Increase costs across the board by some scalar factor like X. For example, simply multiply each cost by 1.25, which would cause characters to empty their resource pool 25% faster. A change like this could force players to be a little more judicious with their ability usage instead of button-mashing spam. (Could it could lower lag?)
2. Decrease damage across the board by the same scalar factor. For example, divide all damage by 1.25, which would make all characters live 20% longer.

Soris

No, it should not affect them

At this point we know it's not going anywhere, at least until removal of veteran ranks i can think of. There are tons of other good options than this blanket nerf, and i think the most effective way is to re-introduce the softcaps.

But this is highly off topic though. Since we have to deal with it in the current version of game, it is crucial to fix some of its design flaws such as the health based skills issue. So i suggest we focus on this for now.

Niaver

Why the hell do people put everything in damage and get free hp i don' get it. You made your build with 4k dmg and 12k hp? Pls, play it like that. I want to kill you in 2 seconds.

IxskullzxI

No, it should not affect them

Niaver wrote: »

Why the hell do people put everything in damage and get free hp i don' get it. You made your build with 4k dmg and 12k hp? Pls, play it like that. I want to kill you in 2 seconds.

What are you getting at?

Soris

No, it should not affect them

Niaver wrote: »

Why the hell do people put everything in damage and get free hp i don' get it. You made your build with 4k dmg and 12k hp? Pls, play it like that. I want to kill you in 2 seconds.

Idk why did you bring this here but this has nothing to do with the thread. 5k more health from battle spirit wont make any difference either way.

Erondil

Yes, it should affect them

If it wouldnt affect them max hp templar and dk would be out of control. A templar could easily oneshot with blazing shield if he got 100 points into bastion and 100 into magic damages, with 50-60k hp (50k is relatively easily to reach, you have to give up a lot for 60k) and a max hp dk build would be OP in group as igneous shield would basically be a barrier without cooldown. Now I do think they're too weak in the current patch, but the problem mostly comes from the little interest to put anything into hp except for very niche build. The best way to adjust this would be to bring back the old 1.5:1 ratio for hp compared to magicka/stamina after what maybe buff a little bit the base value of those skills but do not change the battle spirit. I don't think only 25% reduction for certain skills is really feasible, nor would be fair.

RAGUNAnoOne

No, it should not affect them

@Sypher I think you will like this poll

Husan

No, it should not affect them

Erondil wrote: »

A templar could easily oneshot with blazing shield if he got 100 points into bastion and 100 into magic damages, with 50-60k hp (50k is relatively easily to reach, you have to give up a lot for 60k)

This is a common misconception. It's part of a greater problem, which is ZOS not commuting properly through skill tooltips and the fact there are no other practical ways of obtaining information, you either have to test everything or hope for a ZOS reply on an issue (for example Gina telling us about the hidden one second cooldown on burning light passive). But I'm going off topic!

Fact is, blazing shield would do the exact same damage than it currently does on live, even it its size was not reduced by battle spirit.

Let me explain. Currently battle spirit reduces the size of the shield by 50%. The damage it does is not reduced by battle spirit to avoid a double nerf (if it did, the damage would be reduced twice, because it depends on the size of the shield, which is already halved - resulting in a 75% damage nerf). Having the skill shield you for the full amount, and then reducing the resulting damage by 50% would result in the exact same damage output as currently on live.

Soris

No, it should not affect them

@Erondil I comment on blazing shield part since i mostly play templar. In addition to what @Husan said above, 50k with 100 into bastion = 9k shield. Means 4.5k magic dmg on a naked targets and before hardy passive taken into account. You will not enough penetrance nor crit rate. You will not have any heals other than healing bats, because your magicka is too low to cast worthy heals that is bigger than 4k bol. You probably have enough magicka regen to cast it repetedly but you will most likely lack stamina to break free CCs in a fight longer than 8 seconds.
So at this point you sacrifice a lot to have that kind of shield build that most likely be easily countered or ignored.

And more importantly you cant just make a smaller version of this for your dps build because it will not work. It was working before. Even it was working in 1.6 despite the nerfs. So at this point it needs a serious buff. Health ratio is another option. But even with it, it still needs to not affected by battle spirit at least partially due to its health based nature. I dont mind diminishing returns for health stacked builds to prevent it being a demigod skill. It just needs to work with regular dps builds as a reliable shield.

Artjuh90

No, it should not affect them

Erondil wrote: »

If it wouldnt affect them max hp templar and dk would be out of control. A templar could easily oneshot with blazing shield if he got 100 points into bastion and 100 into magic damages, with 50-60k hp (50k is relatively easily to reach, you have to give up a lot for 60k) and a max hp dk build would be OP in group as igneous shield would basically be a barrier without cooldown. Now I do think they're too weak in the current patch, but the problem mostly comes from the little interest to put anything into hp except for very niche build. The best way to adjust this would be to bring back the old 1.5:1 ratio for hp compared to magicka/stamina after what maybe buff a little bit the base value of those skills but do not change the battle spirit. I don't think only 25% reduction for certain skills is really feasible, nor would be fair.

you are aware that they can actually tank then. and the damage of them will be really low making them only good against the low health stam builds. sorc just shieldstack and can't be touched by a tank and thats fine but if a tank with low damage and high defense has this it's not?

ShadowDisciple

No, it should not affect them

lol.. percentages are good because they dont care about the number it affects..they are always exact and only fluctuate based on their requirements... thats why they are used in the first place...

they should absolutely not be touched in any way otherwise your done f'ed it up

WRX

No, it should not affect them

No.

Since when does 33% mean anything other than 33%? Thats what fu**ing percentages are there for.

hammayolettuce

No, it should not affect them

What I don't get is why a class with no purge, no mobility, with the only self heal, heals for less than a tick of vigor?

Soris

No, it should not affect them

WRX wrote: »

No.

Since when does 33% mean anything other than 33%? Thats what fu**ing percentages are there for.

It is 15% with the battle spirit. 15% of something is always lower than a fixed amout unless you stack like there is no tomorrow. It is exactly why you see 4k dragon blood at 5% health and 3k blazing shield with 25k health.

LegacyDM

No, it should not affect them

No, I don't want Cyrodil buffs at all. When I stare down at the corpse of my opponent I want him to know he was beat on an equal playing field. Not due to some ridiculous emperor or cyrodil buffs.

MrGigglypants

Yes, it should affect them

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Err I think battle spirit as it is now is totally flawed from a design perspective. We are trying to maniuplate outputs after they have already become outputs. Most people complain about spam right? Attack/heal skill spam so now we have a stupid battle spirit system and skills being redesigned. Screw all that.

Remove battle spirit as is, revert the idiotic changes to blocking and streak... replace with new battle spirit.

New battle spirit- 'while is cyro all skills/actions cost x percent more'.... im thinking x is 20 to 40 percent more, including stuff like ults, sprinting, rolling blocking. In effect this limits spam of all abilites, cant spam if resource pool is zero.

O I fully understand how much some skills will cost but I really dont care, I would really prefer higher skill costs than a bevy of skills rendered useless.

So basically you want sorcs streaking around 1 shotting ppl got it. How about no, you're arrogance is beyond understanding. You're basicly stating an opinion and in it implying that you have more sense in you're grand wisdom than a multimillion dollar company and all its developers.

Jura23

No, it should not affect them

Good poll. Look at that stupid Sun Shield. It's ridiculous and gets nerfed by Battle spirit by 50%. Haha.

But not only that. It also affects sets wich provide heals or shields, so they are completely useless.

xarguideb17_ESO

Yes, it should affect them

However, the heal should be bigger.

LoreRiley

Yes, it should affect them

I misinterpreted this but no

joleda4ub17_ESO

No, it should not affect them

MrGigglypants wrote: »

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Err I think battle spirit as it is now is totally flawed from a design perspective. We are trying to maniuplate outputs after they have already become outputs. Most people complain about spam right? Attack/heal skill spam so now we have a stupid battle spirit system and skills being redesigned. Screw all that.

Remove battle spirit as is, revert the idiotic changes to blocking and streak... replace with new battle spirit.

New battle spirit- 'while is cyro all skills/actions cost x percent more'.... im thinking x is 20 to 40 percent more, including stuff like ults, sprinting, rolling blocking. In effect this limits spam of all abilites, cant spam if resource pool is zero.

O I fully understand how much some skills will cost but I really dont care, I would really prefer higher skill costs than a bevy of skills rendered useless.

So basically you want sorcs streaking around 1 shotting ppl got it. How about no, you're arrogance is beyond understanding. You're basicly stating an opinion and in it implying that you have more sense in you're grand wisdom than a multimillion dollar company and all its developers.

How would sorcs one-shot people with Streak if Battle Spirit was removed?

eliisra

Yes, it should affect them

These skills needs to be re-balanced and buffed separately, not by lifting Battle Spirit in PvP.

I get more out of Harness Magicka in PvE than Sun Shield, on my templar actual tank lol. Why? Because health is a junk stat in any type of content, even for tanks these days. The more health you have the more you suck, useless meatblob gtfo.

ZoS remade the core of the game and now it mostly involves into jamming everything into spell dmg + magicka or weapon dmg + stamina and some recovery. But the forgot to update skills scaling of health, they're outdated in both PvE and PvP. Why no fix?

Meanwhile I'm afraid the devs have no clue how hard these skills sucks. No clue what builds are effective. They probably think there's a bunch of DK's and templars casually running around with 35k health and doing really well in both PvE and PvP

Yolokin_Swagonborn

No, it should not affect them

A change to health % heals and shields would be the final piece in the puzzle of fixing tankier Templar and DK builds. I like that when you are playing a DK or Templar you were rewarded for having a higher health pool. It reinforced the identity of both classes as tankier, "stand your ground" style classes.

Artjuh90

No, it should not affect them

eliisra wrote: »

These skills needs to be re-balanced and buffed separately, not by lifting Battle Spirit in PvP.

I get more out of Harness Magicka in PvE than Sun Shield, on my templar actual tank lol. Why? Because health is a junk stat in any type of content, even for tanks these days. The more health you have the more you suck, useless meatblob gtfo.

ZoS remade the core of the game and now it mostly involves into jamming everything into spell dmg + magicka or weapon dmg + stamina and some recovery. But the forgot to update skills scaling of health, they're outdated in both PvE and PvP. Why no fix?

Meanwhile I'm afraid the devs have no clue how hard these skills sucks. No clue what builds are effective. They probably think there's a bunch of DK's and templars casually running around with 35k health and doing really well in both PvE and PvP

my 40k tank is doing just fine in all endgame PvE. thing is i have no problem. getting all adds pulled on me while the DPS doing only aoe dps on all mobs increasing their dps. healer is can focus on more dps because i have decent sustain. sometimes it's not just about howmutch DPS you do. it's howmutch your group can do. but thats why i don't run PUGS on my tank

Essiaga

No, it should not affect them

Soris wrote: »

Since battle spirit isn't going anywhere, I wonder how the community thinks about this issue. Please be objective. Affected skills are Blazing Shield, Dragon Blood and Bone Shield.

(my original intention was to open this thread in pts subforum, but since polls aren't allowed in there, i opened this in here with a redirect link in the pts subforum. But this will be the main topic. Once there are enough votes, i'll tag devs.)

Templar is BOL. its all we got to keep us alive. We have to go vamp, stack non-class shields, use stam skills for defense ... We needed more mitigation. The least ZOS could do for the templar class is alleviate us of the Shield nerf.

Sorcs have larger shields, Mobility, viable PVP burst damage, major AND minor spell resist/armor buffs, and multiple CCs.
NB have cloak, mobility, Evasion, Maim, now protection (on cloak), major and minor spell resist armor buffs, multiple CCs.
DK even has reflect, spike armor, better CCs, etc.

Templar has BOL, channels, cast times, and to get major armor/spell resist buffs they have to stand still or recast every 8 seconds. I'm not going to get into the Passives but Templars < everyone else.

We NEED our shields back.

Stamplar suffers from this too. The other classes can uses magicka abilities for utility and mitigation. (Cloak/Double Take/Mass Hysteria) ... Stamplars get 4 offensive skills and are STILL dependent on 2 handed for gap closing, healing, buffs, burst damage and execute. By far most handicapped builds in the game. They get Repentance which requires they kill to stay alive.

Essiaga

No, it should not affect them

joleda4ub17_ESO wrote: »

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Err I think battle spirit as it is now is totally flawed from a design perspective. We are trying to maniuplate outputs after they have already become outputs. Most people complain about spam right? Attack/heal skill spam so now we have a stupid battle spirit system and skills being redesigned. Screw all that.

Remove battle spirit as is, revert the idiotic changes to blocking and streak... replace with new battle spirit.

New battle spirit- 'while is cyro all skills/actions cost x percent more'.... im thinking x is 20 to 40 percent more, including stuff like ults, sprinting, rolling blocking. In effect this limits spam of all abilites, cant spam if resource pool is zero.

O I fully understand how much some skills will cost but I really dont care, I would really prefer higher skill costs than a bevy of skills rendered useless.

^^^ This is a good idea.

My take on Battle Spirit (BS): I believe the intent of BS is to increase the time-to-kill so that people die slower. Time-to-kill is actually decreased (people die faster) because glass cannon builds are given free hit points, which allows those builds to place even a bigger focus on damage. BS rewards builds that put no points into Health more than those that do. BS also penalizes races with +Health bonuses while not touching races with +Stamina or +Magicka bonuses. Battle Spirit is BS.

A better system IMO would remove the bonus health and do one or both of the following:

1. Increase costs across the board by some scalar factor like X. For example, simply multiply each cost by 1.25, which would cause characters to empty their resource pool 25% faster. A change like this could force players to be a little more judicious with their ability usage instead of button-mashing spam. (Could it could lower lag?)
2. Decrease damage across the board by the same scalar factor. For example, divide all damage by 1.25, which would make all characters live 20% longer.

I believe at launch battle spirit was flat Armor and spell resistance buff so fights would last longer.

Buff health ... live longer
Nerf Healing ... die faster
Nerf Sheilds ... die faster
Nerf Damage ... live longer

I'm not sure what exacly ZOS is doing, but I am ABSOLUTELY sure it has something to do with poor design. Damage it takes to kill mobs should be based on the damage it takes to kill a player. Damage to kill mobs should not be adjusted to kill players slower ... that's an obvious sign that you did something wrong.

If shields are nerfed in pvp cause shields are to strong in PVE but only one class shield is left viable in pvp and its NOT used in PVE ... then adjust THAT skill and leave the rest alone.

Nerf Hardened Ward by 50% and remove shields from Battle Spirit. No one loses any thing.

Soris

No, it should not affect them

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel
It's growing, come take a look.