Adult women biggest demographic in gaming

tinythinker

http://www.dailydot.com/geek/adult-women-largest-gaming-demographic

Not surprising. Many women wanted to be nerdy and geeky growing up but faced hostility, mockery, and pressure to conform to what was deemed "girly stuff", not science, sci-fi, epic sword and sorcery type fantasy, etc. So comic books, action figures, video games, etc were geared to boys. Now those girls have grown up, pop culture has embraced geekiness, and these women don't give a #$%^ about stereotypes that get in the way of their fun and friendships.

There are clearly many adults on ESO, and quite a larger number of them women. I think some games are a better fit for a wider audience, and ESO has a lot of potential to be that kind of game. OK, back to playing. Anyone want to run the daily Undaunted? Type X in guild...

Voxicity

Actually it's just mobile gaming. Which isn't really gaming anyway.

vyrusb23

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJyMT4ZVQEc

KochDerDamonen

"Hey everyone, here's a clickbait title from two years ago"

fixed that for you


Nonsense aside, ESO actually does have a fairly large female playerbase, a number of officers in the two guilds that I pay most mind to are and here on the forums you can see a lot of folks who are. This is ancient news and those numbers don't mean anything, calm down a little.

Forestd16b14_ESO

People are still on about this junk ? You're a guy who plays games ? Ok. You're a girl who plays games ? Ok.

Not that big of deal if girls wanna play games who cares games are meant for every one and to bring every one together.

.... And to of course watch guys hit on girls while their playing games and get rejected.

Mivryna

I see this discussion getting messy really quickly, so as someone with a lot of experience quelling drama on this subject, I'd like to clarify some things.

These statistics have been used to say, "Look women belong in gaming too!" But this was never in question by the gaming community as a whole. The vast majority of the gaming community is quite accepting of diversity, yet there's been a narrative against the whole for the actions of a few. Bit of an 80-20 rule. 80% of the issues are caused by 20% of the population.

@Vox brings up the point that it's mostly mobile or "casual" gaming. Although this may be accurate, I think it's a bit of a moot point. This point comes from people who may find the associated message unpleasant or upsetting, but may not be able to articulate why.

The idea is that the entire gaming industry must change to suit one particular demographic/perspective rather than suiting many demographics and perspectives. You can imagine why this might be upsetting to some people; even those who do belong to those demographics.

(EDIT: Realized this might be a tad too ambiguous. I'm suggesting that the industry currently appeals to a diverse range of demographics, and has for some time, and there are some who intend to change this based on claims of sexism.)

It is important to recognize that the different perspectives of this meta-discussion are, for the most part, coming from a place of genuine concern and not malice.

Hand_Bacon

Umbranox wrote: »

Bit of an 80-20 rule. 80% of the issues are caused by 20% of the population.

The idea is that the entire gaming industry must change to suit one particular demographic/perspective rather than suiting many demographics and perspectives. You can imagine why this might be upsetting to some people; even those who do belong to those demographics.

These.

Its a non issue, but for those who want to make it one or don't know how to handle it. I do find it funny how men, in general, change their tone when they find out a woman is present. Some try the Rico Suave act, others act like they're starving people tossed a cracker.

It sort of reminds me of my time in the military. In my branch women were a bit more rare and as a result they became very uh..um...popular. The sort of sexist statement, "She's a 10 here, a 2 at home."

I've left guilds here that have seemed to condone such behaviors.

For what its worth, my wife is a gamer and a friend of mine met his wife via an mmo.

Julianos

My hostility only againts those women in twitch whos showing their boobies and trying to earn some quick money they actually stream anything but gameplay they are corrupted and degrading themselves. Otherwise i love women who play games with me for example my girl friend. Otherwise she would nagged a lot on my neck ahaha joking

Recremen

I'm glad ESO has such a diverse population of gamers and is made by a team who seeks to add a wide variety of perspectives to their narratives. I mean, when you're covering dozens of different cultures across all of Tamriel, how could you not wind up with an inclusive-feeling game?

Xendyn

Well...good /cheer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFhgupR565Q

tinythinker

Someone was apparently recycling an older story. Sorry for not checking the date. But I would be surprised if the trend hasn't continued.

I think it's cool that more people feel freer to do what they want with their spare time. Regardless of what you think of the link, there is more room for people today in nerdiness and geekdom. I knew girls growing up who were embarrassed to be seen with a comic book, let alone learning to speak Klingon. It's different now. To me, that's cool.

So when I saw the headline, it made me smile. So I shared. It's very simple. Why make more out of it than that if it is a "non-issue"? If on the other hand for some reason my happiness at women becoming more comfortable being themselves and becoming a growing part of the video game market somehow offends or bores you then *yaaaawn* Sorry, were you saying something?

On the lighter side, I got a good chuckle out of the video, a great spoof that is an apt reminder that being an anti-social fashion disaster with thick glasses doesn't make you any more of a nerd that watching a second week showing of The Avengers.

In any case, the point is that ESO is one of those games that seems like it is in a good place to make the most of this trend. That is good for everyone who enjoys this game. It is a positive thing.

Recremen

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It's usually a self-affirmation thing. If you're part of a demographic that's been abused, mistreated, demonized, or excluded from something, finding anything positive about people in your demographic participating in the thing they're excluded from is really a healing experience. So the people who like these kinds of articles have likely been mistreated at some (or many) points in their life, and find this empowering, putting them on the same level as everyone else. It can also go a long way towards deconstructing the trend of marginalization.

Acrolas

The core issue is post-mid 80's marketing, and how Nintendo chose to sell its consoles in the boys aisle instead of either girls or broad electronics. Everybody else just followed suit, because a console in the boys aisle would have exclusively boy titles.

Even integrated back into electronics, most titles still shadow the toy aisle. It's either for boys or for girls. Even Lego embraced gender marketing, when building toys should be one the most gender-neutral mediums around.

But ESO isn't part of that marketing issue, because their marketing is so flat and low energy that it's not really speaking to anybody. It's accurate though. The core game is kind of boring even on the first run through it. ZOS likes to use the misleading cinematic trailers that don't tell you anything about gameplay, because they have to scrape the barrel to find sales points when doing actual gameplay trailers. ESO can't even worry about gender marketing because they're still trying to figure out what exactly their game is besides just Elder Scrolls nostalgia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6cyMkAjeFM

Mivryna

Asmodean wrote: »

Why do people even feel the need to exclaim this kind of stuff? I'm honestly asking.

You see people going on about this 'equal rights, etc' stuff. Then see them making a big deal of out a particular gender doing X, or Y activities, or such.

sigh x sigh x sigh ³

It's a bit of a self-perpetuating circle where people infer too much from surface details without addressing the root ideas.

Storm_knight22

I smell an SJW.......

Mivryna

Recremen wrote: »

It's usually a self-affirmation thing. If you're part of a demographic that's been abused, mistreated, demonized, or excluded from something, finding anything positive about people in your demographic participating in the thing they're excluded from is really a healing experience. So the people who like these kinds of articles have likely been mistreated at some (or many) points in their life, and find this empowering, putting them on the same level as everyone else. It can also go a long way towards deconstructing the trend of marginalization.

To me, the question seems to be whether it's actually a trend, or if people are trying too hard to make it a trend when it really isn't. I'm sure many individuals have indeed felt marginalized, and it's probably a big deal for them when it happens. But in all my years as a gamer, I've witnessed far more acceptance than malice.

If true malice is a trend, it's among a tiny minority of gamers, and not the community as a whole. What creates more malice is when people are forced to pick sides. Particularly if the conversation is framed in terms of "gamers" versus "good people".

Fruitmass

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I agree very strongly with this. I play video games. I've played video games for most of my life. Never felt the need to advertise my gender. I want people's opinion about me to be based on how I conduct myself. I do not want to be coddled or handicapped because of age, gender or race.

Quoted content removed

Once again. Very strongly agree. Gender equality shouldn't be a "trend" it should be a normal part of life. You don't need to point out statistic to make that happen, you just have to be a decent human being. Far too many people take things like this and use them to promote a personal agenda, which only serves to hamper any real progress towards true gender equality.

Personofsecrets

video games must serve our needs

Recremen

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I'm sure it could be condescending if it were someone else bringing it up for social justice brownie points or something, but a community member bringing it up, highlighting their own experiences, etc., doesn't tend to have that effect, it tends to be more empowering. It's not going to be 100% that way for everyone, but it has to do with issues like agency and self-efficacy, and as such an intra-community celebration is generally not going to come across as condescending. After all, they're the ones who are having the negative experiences to begin with.

danno8

The article is strange because several times they downplay the whole "Social phone games" as not being the reason why it has jumped up so high for women, and yet goes on to say the following:

"So what games have women been playing all these years, now that we know they haven't just been wasting time trying to get their Facebook friends to give them free lives on Candy Crush?
Casual computer games, mostly. The report ranks online and mobile puzzle games, board games, trivia games, and card games as coming in second to the boom in social games, which more than doubled in popularity between 2012 and 2013."


Isn't Candy Crush an online mobile puzzle game??

So they seem to say that social games are the main reason, followed by mobile puzzle games. And yet they say this earlier in the article:

"All of that means that stereotypes are breaking fast in the gaming industry, particularly the longheld stereotype of the adult woman as an outlier who sticks to mobile games and "social" games on Facebook while the more hardcore gamer, the "serious" (male) gamer, goes for console games."

So color me confused. Personally I can't go anywhere where I don't see a group of ten teenage girls with their faces all buried in their phones. I assume they are not texting each other since they are right next to each other, so maybe they are playing mobile games?

Also, the link to the whole study is broken on that page so I can't even read it and come to my own conclusions. Given the seemingly conflicting statements in the article I am just going to assume the writer is confused or something.

All that said, I think men still outnumber women on PC games, but women far outnumber men on mobile/social games, and that is where the difference is made up.

Although, in the end who really cares who is playing what, except for advertisers?

Recremen

Umbranox wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

It's usually a self-affirmation thing. If you're part of a demographic that's been abused, mistreated, demonized, or excluded from something, finding anything positive about people in your demographic participating in the thing they're excluded from is really a healing experience. So the people who like these kinds of articles have likely been mistreated at some (or many) points in their life, and find this empowering, putting them on the same level as everyone else. It can also go a long way towards deconstructing the trend of marginalization.

To me, the question seems to be whether it's actually a trend, or if people are trying too hard to make it a trend when it really isn't. I'm sure many individuals have indeed felt marginalized, and it's probably a big deal for them when it happens. But in all my years as a gamer, I've witnessed far more acceptance than malice.

If true malice is a trend, it's among a tiny minority of gamers, and not the community as a whole. What creates more malice is when people are forced to pick sides. Particularly if the conversation is framed in terms of "gamers" versus "good people".

It's definitely difficult to find out if it's a trend or not, but if it's just people coming forward, talking about their experiences, asking for games that represent more diverse interests, etc., I don't much see the harm. You don't necessarily need a trend of uninteresting, objectified female characters to criticize a game for having them, for instance, any more than you need a trend in baby-eating games to point out that games featuring baby eating are not appreciated. I really think it's all just a normal part of the development feedback loop, nothing to really worry about. Like if someone developed a cupholder that didn't hold half the cups you'd want to put in it, except that in this case the cups are women and the cupholders are engaging video game narratives. Or something.

tinythinker

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Did you read what I wrote? The initial post and the follow-up comment? That answers your question. It does so very clearly, with examples.

If you did but don't get it, a long explanation about empathy, the nature of privilege, why perception matters, why proclaiming that we should ignore prejudice to make it go away doesn't work, etc, would be pointless. Because all of the academic jargon and thoroughness and detailed analysis can't replace a basic human to human understanding.

Here is the nutshell version: Things are not equal. People of color in many places still face discrimination. LGBT people do, too. And so do women. The list goes on. Sometimes it's small things, like how people are treated in video games. Sometimes it's big things, like not having the right to vote or being paid less for the same work. Because things are not equal and prejudice exists, some people cheer or smile when things move towards equality and fairness. Sometimes people are happy about the big things, sometimes they are happy about the really, really small things.

But saying that we shouldn't acknowledge when a group makes progress makes no sense. Sometimes people act as if doing so is putting one group over others, or making one group more important than another, or making a big deal about nothing. Men are not harmed if women feel more comfortable gaming, and being happy that more women are gaming isn't an act of prejudice or discrimination against men. Posting that you are happy to see progress doesn't pit men vs. women, nor does it lead to inequality. It is just acknowledging and being happy that something positive has happened, like someone who was unhappy having a good day, or someone who was sick getting better, or like someone who was being abused leaving a bad relationship and moving on. Nor does acknowledging progress by one group reinforce idea of dividing people and therefore set back equality. Ignoring the divisions that already exist and downplaying when the barriers promoting those divisions are weakened can, though, set equality back.

My post was not about ideology, or politics, or people trying to advance an agenda, or any of things people sometimes claim as the "real reason" for acknowledging such good things when they happen to a group of people rather than an individual. (As if promoting fairness or equality was something sinister.) I was very clear in the initial post and my follow-up comment that, whatever people make of the link, the reminder that more women are letting their geek-flag fly made me smile. It isn't complicated. It doesn't take a degree to understand or explain. It is about imagining that some of those girls who used to be embarrassed to want to be Darth Vader for Halloween when they were twelve may now in fact be adult women who are kicking my #$$ in PvP right here on ESO and thinking that this would be an awesome thing.

Honestly, people who have a problem with that, and want to talk instead about equality and fairness and being free to be yourself as "not a big deal" or some kind of needless provocation, are making this about their own issues and the baggage attached to those issues. That's fine. Everyone has their own views, and we all make assumptions. I'm not offended by people who don't understand what I'm saying. But again, it really isn't complicated, and I hope that for most people it isn't controversial. So, again:

1. I'm happy there are more women in gaming (nerding, geeking, etc) than there were when I first started gaming (nerding, geeking) myself. The linked article and other stories like it reminded me of this.

2. I think this is good for games like ESO.

I figure if I'm still not being clear, I will just have to be content with being misunderstood. But I've already spent 15 minutes writing this last comment that could have been spent bringing pain to my online enemies or playing fetch with the dogs, so it will have to do. Whatever your views are or what you think of mine, I wish you well and will see you in Tamriel

Yolokin_Swagonborn

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So how did you feel when you learned that it was originally Taimandred that killed you and not Graendal?

Mivryna

Recremen wrote: »

Umbranox wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

It's usually a self-affirmation thing. If you're part of a demographic that's been abused, mistreated, demonized, or excluded from something, finding anything positive about people in your demographic participating in the thing they're excluded from is really a healing experience. So the people who like these kinds of articles have likely been mistreated at some (or many) points in their life, and find this empowering, putting them on the same level as everyone else. It can also go a long way towards deconstructing the trend of marginalization.

To me, the question seems to be whether it's actually a trend, or if people are trying too hard to make it a trend when it really isn't. I'm sure many individuals have indeed felt marginalized, and it's probably a big deal for them when it happens. But in all my years as a gamer, I've witnessed far more acceptance than malice.

If true malice is a trend, it's among a tiny minority of gamers, and not the community as a whole. What creates more malice is when people are forced to pick sides. Particularly if the conversation is framed in terms of "gamers" versus "good people".

It's definitely difficult to find out if it's a trend or not, but if it's just people coming forward, talking about their experiences, asking for games that represent more diverse interests, etc., I don't much see the harm. You don't necessarily need a trend of uninteresting, objectified female characters to criticize a game for having them, for instance, any more than you need a trend in baby-eating games to point out that games featuring baby eating are not appreciated. I really think it's all just a normal part of the development feedback loop, nothing to really worry about. Like if someone developed a cupholder that didn't hold half the cups you'd want to put in it, except that in this case the cups are women and the cupholders are engaging video game narratives. Or something.

In that sense, then, is it right to criticize the existence of a particularly-shaped cupholder, simply because it doesn't suit all cups? I would think that the solution is already in-place; there is a diverse range of cupholders on the market, and people can buy the ones that suit them. If there's a particular type of cup that doesn't have a suitable cupholder, people are free (and welcome) to bring in new ideas and implement them.

To me, the important thing is that artists are free to design cupholders how they want to.

Hand_Bacon

One cup holder size to rule them all.

As long as it can fit in a rowboat without capsizing it.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

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It is just more fun to talk about Wheel of Time than the original topic in this post because that topic always turns sour on forums for some reason.

Asmodean was always my favorite forsaken because he really didn't care about the overarching battle between light and darkness, he just wanted to enjoy music for all eternity. That is the moral equivalent of selling your soul to molag bal for everlasting sweet rolls.

SemiD4rkness

Adult men pretending to be a woman biggest demographic in gaming

ParaNostram

Vox wrote: »

Actually it's just mobile gaming. Which isn't really gaming anyway.

Dat gatekeeper...

Genomic

ParaNostram wrote: »

Vox wrote: »

Actually it's just mobile gaming. Which isn't really gaming anyway.

Dat gatekeeper...

Fighting unfair stereotypes with another, unfair (and even more mean-spirited) stereotype. Nice hypocrisy.

EdmundTowers

Pfft. Biggest demographic if you include casual online card/puzzle/trivia games according to that article.

As for "real" PC games. The ones that immerse you in an alternate reality and challenge you with a competitive multiplayer experience, mostly a sausage fest as far as I can tell. Met more men pretending to be women. Few have the competitive desire to play these types of games.

Anyways, i doubt 50% of all those big boobed high elves running around vuhkel guard are females. Most likely dudes playing ESO one handed.

MornaBaine

As a long time "gamer chick" ESO has done a couple things that push my buttons (and not in the good way). Five Companions. ONE is female...and she's a very busty blond and it's intimated time and again by Abner that she's none too bright. Granted he makes sure to take shots at everybody but Lyris seems to get the worst of it. I get that we're supposed to realize he's a creep but c'mon already.

The other thing has been with the Crown Store costumes. Love the dancing girl outfits! But why are there no male outfits that are equally as revealing??? As far as I am concerned ALL costumes ought to come in both a male and female version. I'm not talking about your character being able to wear them and just end up weirdly distorted anyway but an actual COMPARABLE costume for each. ZOS needs to fix that ASAP. And they need to make sure it does NOT become a trend!

It even seems as if there are more Kings and higher level MALE nobles in DC than queens and female nobles. What's up with that ZOS?