Serious Question: What happened to Flame Lash that makes it hit so low?

Vynist

In 1.6, DK whips hit approximately 5k to 8k in heavy armor (although could hit higher).
In 1.6, NB surprise attack hit approximately 8k (although could hit higher).

Roughly the same amount, although Surprise Attack tended to lead in terms of dmg.

NOTE: These are approximate values. So we can skip the whole "well MY whips hit THIS high bro!"

In 1.7+, DK whips hits approximately 2k to 3k in heavy armor (although can hit higher).
In 1.7+, NB surprise attack hits approximately 8k (although can hit higher).

What happened? I'm having trouble killing anything on my DK unless I meteor someone who isn't expecting it.

Angus

I'm not convinced those numbers are coming from comparable builds.

Vynist

Angus wrote: »

I'm not convinced those numbers are coming from comparable builds.

They are relative to each other.

Ask someone who ran NB before/after the change, then ask someone who ran DK before/after the change. It's the same relative.

Angus

I did, but my DK wasn't at all DPS optimized so can't compare my experience. Figured it was a mix of my build lacking, dropping molten, higher spell resistance on opponents w/more nirn around and flame resistance from CPs, etc.

Would be interesting to know how much base damage dropped if that's what happened. My magicka DKs feel like they're showing up for work hungover everyday, with whatever's going on with whip.

Jade1986

ZoS is determined to destroy the Magicka DK class it seems. BW and Commandos all over again. they touched one of the devs in their special spot and since then they are on a crusade to kill the class.

Just a guess.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Vynist wrote: »

In 1.6, DK whips hit approximately 5k to 8k in heavy armor (although could hit higher).
In 1.6, NB surprise attack hit approximately 8k (although could hit higher).

Roughly the same amount, although Surprise Attack tended to lead in terms of dmg.

NOTE: These are approximate values. So we can skip the whole "well MY whips hit THIS high bro!"

In 1.7+, DK whips hits approximately 2k to 3k in heavy armor (although can hit higher).
In 1.7+, NB surprise attack hits approximately 8k (although can hit higher).

What happened? I'm having trouble killing anything on my DK unless I meteor someone who isn't expecting it.

Most likely it got hit by the...

Hulk_VI

Vynist wrote: »

In 1.6, DK whips hit approximately 5k to 8k in heavy armor (although could hit higher).
In 1.6, NB surprise attack hit approximately 8k (although could hit higher).

Roughly the same amount, although Surprise Attack tended to lead in terms of dmg.

NOTE: These are approximate values. So we can skip the whole "well MY whips hit THIS high bro!"

In 1.7+, DK whips hits approximately 2k to 3k in heavy armor (although can hit higher).
In 1.7+, NB surprise attack hits approximately 8k (although can hit higher).

What happened? I'm having trouble killing anything on my DK unless I meteor someone who isn't expecting it.

It was the damage reduction and the fact everyone is mostly vamp now soo they have alot more points into elemental defender. U can achieve high damage with whips u just need to build right. For example my mag DK dueling build had a 6.7k whip tool tip and hitting on average 5k to people. If u want to know anything about a dueling build or open world build just msg me.

RoamingRiverElk

It's not possible to spec into damage properly as a magicka dk without sacrificing your survivability so much that you die very very easily. Nightblades can rely on cloak and shadow image, plus dodge rolling if they're stamina. Magicka sorcs have their damage shield scale from max magicka and they can streak. That's the difference. Magicka DKs defenses scale mostly from health and stamina (and, especially, blocking, which was nerfed to nothingness). Blessing of Restoration isn't strong enough of a heal, especially since it means you cannot block with a shield at the same time, and Healing Ward cannot be coupled with another strong damage shield that would protect it until it can heal - and you can't get away from the enemies while waiting for that heal either.

If magicka dks could have 39k max magicka and 2200 spell dmg or more and still survive well, yes, they'd hit pretty hard with that flame lash.

CatchMeTrolling

Why not go light, to be honest heavy isn't that beneficial enough to risk losing the extra damage.

Therium104

I know man. It makes absolutely no logical sense.

SRASinister

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Why not go light, to be honest heavy isn't that beneficial enough to risk losing the extra damage.

I asked my guild mates the same thing and they said the blocking passive with the Heavy armor is why they still use it since there is no mobility.

DHale

If you have 100 in elemental expert flame lash still hits super hard and elf born helps too. If you have 100 in elemental defender it takes the sting out of flame lash so choose. Still scales off magic though for some reason the bigger the pool...

imredneckson

Vynist wrote: »

In 1.6, DK whips hit approximately 5k to 8k in heavy armor (although could hit higher).
In 1.6, NB surprise attack hit approximately 8k (although could hit higher).

Roughly the same amount, although Surprise Attack tended to lead in terms of dmg.

NOTE: These are approximate values. So we can skip the whole "well MY whips hit THIS high bro!"

In 1.7+, DK whips hits approximately 2k to 3k in heavy armor (although can hit higher).
In 1.7+, NB surprise attack hits approximately 8k (although can hit higher).

What happened? I'm having trouble killing anything on my DK unless I meteor someone who isn't expecting it.

As a wise and skilled magicka DK once said "Our saddest day has finally come. Zeminax nerfed us to s***"

CatchMeTrolling

SRASinister wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Why not go light, to be honest heavy isn't that beneficial enough to risk losing the extra damage.

I asked my guild mates the same thing and they said the blocking passive with the Heavy armor is why they still use it since there is no mobility.

Being that blocking is nerfed I still wouldn't consider it unless you plan to just sit there with your shield up.

Therium104

imredneckson wrote: »

Vynist wrote: »

In 1.6, DK whips hit approximately 5k to 8k in heavy armor (although could hit higher).
In 1.6, NB surprise attack hit approximately 8k (although could hit higher).

Roughly the same amount, although Surprise Attack tended to lead in terms of dmg.

NOTE: These are approximate values. So we can skip the whole "well MY whips hit THIS high bro!"

In 1.7+, DK whips hits approximately 2k to 3k in heavy armor (although can hit higher).
In 1.7+, NB surprise attack hits approximately 8k (although can hit higher).

What happened? I'm having trouble killing anything on my DK unless I meteor someone who isn't expecting it.

As a wise and skilled magicka DK once said "Our saddest day has finally come. Zeminax nerfed us to s***"

Lol. A magika dk is forced to wear light armor with most if not all survivability class skills nerfed to garbage. Flamelash is garbage. They have no escape. A DK cannot use heavy armor because you still get insta-gib by NB and have horrible resouce mgmt so can only use abilities a few times. It is ridiculous and probably the worst example of class balance in the history of MMO. Magika DK must get a buff. This is borderline negligent.

Morozov

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

If magicka dks could have 39k max magicka and 2200 spell dmg or more and still survive well, yes, they'd hit pretty hard with that flame lash.

so let's go hypothetical: If you could reach 39k magicka....and 2300 spell damage....in SWnB / resto. what would be needed to maintain the survivability?

wings for ranged
vol armor for melee
maybe a couple impen gear (3-4)
?
?
?

im just trying to envision an elf bane / magnus build that could have that damage, but use its abilities with LOS in the environment to aid the survivability. Could it have the whip damage (5-7k range) to beat people down till you could get them into "meteor-execute" range with not much frustration?

anyone care to get hypothetical with me?

Angus

Morozov wrote: »

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

If magicka dks could have 39k max magicka and 2200 spell dmg or more and still survive well, yes, they'd hit pretty hard with that flame lash.

so let's go hypothetical: If you could reach 39k magicka....and 2300 spell damage....in SWnB / resto. what would be needed to maintain the survivability?

wings for ranged
vol armor for melee
maybe a couple impen gear (3-4)
?
?
?

im just trying to envision an elf bane / magnus build that could have that damage, but use its abilities with LOS in the environment to aid the survivability. Could it have the whip damage (5-7k range) to beat people down till you could get them into "meteor-execute" range with not much frustration?

anyone care to get hypothetical with me?

We'd make a good counter against ranged builds.

IMHO, biggest problem still is that we can't really block or out-regen melee CC. Most smart players now CC my magicka DK once, then twice, then it's no more stamina and DK can't run away.

Whip would have to hit like a truck to have enough burst to finish them off in that timeframe, or we'd need a punchier heal/shield to sustain through it.

Arena armor could be interesting, but idk how to hit 39k magicka and 2300 spell damage with that.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

Afaik our Whip scales no way as good as Surprise Attack. Also NBs can reach bigger numbers through their passives that increase critical damage, spell damage when stealthed and also a higher magicka pool (not totally sure on this one though).

cdobratz

Well surprise attack has always hit harder because it gives major fracture. NB's get some incredible passives (increased crit %, regens, etc) while dk passives have been about using ults and increasing your dps through dots, not through using a spammable dps ability. My theory: the dps difference between flame lash and SA aren't the reasons why NB is so much better than Magic DK in pvp, but players have gotten more intelligent and have gotten much better at preventing dots.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

cdobratz wrote: »

Well surprise attack has always hit harder because it gives major fracture. NB's get some incredible passives (increased crit %, regens, etc) while dk passives have been about using ults and increasing your dps through dots, not through using a spammable dps ability. My theory: the dps difference between flame lash and SA aren't the reasons why NB is so much better than Magic DK in pvp, but players have gotten more intelligent and have gotten much better at preventing dots.

Also having to slot one or two dots to compare for a rather weak instant damage skill is not cool when you only have 10 slots available. Even more when the name of the game is burst damage.

Angus

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

cdobratz wrote: »

Well surprise attack has always hit harder because it gives major fracture. NB's get some incredible passives (increased crit %, regens, etc) while dk passives have been about using ults and increasing your dps through dots, not through using a spammable dps ability. My theory: the dps difference between flame lash and SA aren't the reasons why NB is so much better than Magic DK in pvp, but players have gotten more intelligent and have gotten much better at preventing dots.

Also having to slot one or two dots to compare for a rather weak instant damage skill is not cool when you only have 10 slots available. Even more when the name of the game is burst damage.

On the bright side, the ardent flame magicka DoT morphs have some half-decent utility effects. If only engulfing flames and burning embers were one skill instead of two...

imredneckson

Therium104 wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

Vynist wrote: »

In 1.6, DK whips hit approximately 5k to 8k in heavy armor (although could hit higher).
In 1.6, NB surprise attack hit approximately 8k (although could hit higher).

Roughly the same amount, although Surprise Attack tended to lead in terms of dmg.

NOTE: These are approximate values. So we can skip the whole "well MY whips hit THIS high bro!"

In 1.7+, DK whips hits approximately 2k to 3k in heavy armor (although can hit higher).
In 1.7+, NB surprise attack hits approximately 8k (although can hit higher).

What happened? I'm having trouble killing anything on my DK unless I meteor someone who isn't expecting it.

As a wise and skilled magicka DK once said "Our saddest day has finally come. Zeminax nerfed us to s***"

Lol. A magika dk is forced to wear light armor with most if not all survivability class skills nerfed to garbage. Flamelash is garbage. They have no escape. A DK cannot use heavy armor because you still get insta-gib by NB and have horrible resouce mgmt so can only use abilities a few times. It is ridiculous and probably the worst example of class balance in the history of MMO. Magika DK must get a buff. This is borderline negligent.

I have a few ideas for a heavy armored magicka DK
3 Willows Path for magicka and stamina regen
1 Molag Kena for spell damage
5 Twice born star to get the Atronach and Apprentice for extra magicka regen and spell damage
5-7 heavy ( if you have the Undaunted passives 5 1 1 is your best bet)
Tri-stat food or which ever floats your boat
vamp abilities on both bars to get the 10% magicka and stam regen
Elusive mist for movement speed
Divines on all your gear including shield(s) for the most spell power and magicka regen
Willpower for more magicka and spell damage
Entropy for more HP and spell damage

I haven't gotten around to trying this set up yet so I'm not sure how it'll perform

cschwingeb14_ESO

There are several problems with magicka based damage in PvP:

Hardy/elemental defender

Breton/Templar/DK spell resist passives

Nirnhoned weapons being BiS for magicka builds

Magicka harness

It's sad that my Breton Templar has almost 30k spell resist (5/1/1, Nirn weapon, channeled focus) without really trying. It's very difficult to deal any real damage to magicka builds as a magicka build, as any class.

I'm not saying it's unbalanced (aside from there not being a physical version of Hardy), because it's magicka vs magicka

eliisra

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

There are several problems with magicka based damage in PvP:

Hardy/elemental defender

Breton/Templar/DK spell resist passives

Nirnhoned weapons being BiS for magicka builds

Magicka harness

It's sad that my Breton Templar has almost 30k spell resist (5/1/1, Nirn weapon, channeled focus) without really trying. It's very difficult to deal any real damage to magicka builds as a magicka build, as any class.

I'm not saying it's unbalanced (aside from there not being a physical version of Hardy), because it's magicka vs magicka

I disagree, it's still unbalanced.

Since the topic is DK's, lets stick with that.

Stamina DK can kill anything and any1 in PvP. They can wreck other stamina builds, tanks, healers and any magicka build.

Magicka DK can only kill stamina players and scrubs. They cant kill decent magicka players 1v1, unless there's time for a 45 minute duel, where first one falling asleep looses. They sure as hell cant take out a templar healer, that needs to die now or the enemy will never go down.

This is due to all the reasons you stated above and of course the fact that magicka DK cant go glass house nuke when handicapped by 0 mobility + escape.

So would you like to play a build that can kill any1 or build that cant?

Imagine if stamina builds couldn't kill each other or like needed 45 minutes to crown a winner?

Angus

eliisra wrote: »

Magicka DK can only kill stamina players and scrubs. They cant kill decent magicka players 1v1, unless there's time for a 45 minute duel, where first one falling asleep looses.

Magicka DK 1vX then (pre 1.6):

https://youtube.com/embed/JO_Mu6znx3I

Magicka DK vs any magicka build now:

https://youtube.com/embed/c9rrgJXfLns

vortexman11

Flame lash doesn't hit any less than it used to (other than the changes to battlespirit), and it has honestly never been a hard hitting ability. Surprise attack hits hard, Crystal Frag hits hard, but flame lash has almost always been paired with the use of DoTs. Prior to 1.7 when you saw a DK spamming flame lash in hopes of killing someone, 90% of the time they were not a good DK... but now, with DoTs so...meh...in a game that favours burst you can't really blame them anymore.

Now the reason you're not seeing the damage of Flame Lash increase to the levels of the other two skills I mentioned is because as a DK, you simply cannot stack weapon damage or spell damage comparable to a sorcerer or Nightblade and still be able to function properly in open world PvP, with no bonuses to regen or cost reduction, and no mobility, Dragonknights don't synergize as well as other classes in this min-maxing world and therefore can't go "all out" into damage.

I'm not even taking into account the obvious flaws in the CP system that negate magic damage, fire damage, DoT damage, increase spell resistance, and so on....

SirDopey

So serious question. I'm thinking of re-visiting my DK (VR 16 High Elf, magic tuned) which I haven't played since 1.6, do I convert her to a stamina build or leave her as a magic DK and set her aside for solely PVE DPS, if I did reserve her soley for PVE is magic going to be better than stam given her race?

Either that or I just leave her to rot for a few more months.....

Xsorus

Basically the block nerf pretty much screwed a Magicka DK pretty hard.

Magicka Nightblades have Cloak which is basically magic version of Dodge and the ability to escape.

Sorcs have Bolt Escape for running and Shields....

Bout the only comparable thing would be Templars..who just have better heals.

But when they nerfed Block they pretty much killed any chance for Magicka DK to compete.

glavius

While surprise attack does good dmg, its nowhere 8k base dmg in pvp. That would require 16k tooltip and 0 armor target

Tankqull

Angus wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

Magicka DK can only kill stamina players and scrubs. They cant kill decent magicka players 1v1, unless there's time for a 45 minute duel, where first one falling asleep looses.

Magicka DK 1vX then (pre 1.6):

https://youtube.com/embed/JO_Mu6znx3I

Magicka DK vs any magicka build now:

https://youtube.com/embed/c9rrgJXfLns

and? regardless of the class a duel between two magica users take forever.

Vynist

glavius wrote: »

While surprise attack does good dmg, its nowhere 8k base dmg in pvp. That would require 16k tooltip and 0 armor target

You're telling me you have never been hit by a 8k surprise attack....?

I've been hit by 12k surprise attack, non-emp, non-stealth.