Balance Change Idea?

Nightwolfmenace

Talked to quite a bit of people as well as posted this iDea in another thread and decided to make my own thread about it. Basically wanted to talk about how we can go about bringing a former of balance to our combat system. Let's me know your thoughts.

As we all know, Magicka(light) /Stamina(medium) builds can get very high damage that is also in direct correlation towards their defense and survivability(i.e high max magicka affects the healing and strength of dmg shields while spell dmg increases healing as well. High Max stamina and weapon damage increasing the healing of rally and vigor). As the saying goes,"you can't have your cake and eat it too". It's either you build your character for high dmg/low survivability, avg dmg/avg survivability or low dmg/high survivability.

Now we all know soft caps isn't coming back anytime soon(probably not ever tbh). So the change I would make is to remove the component of Max resources affecting your damage and survivability of skills(resources should only be a means to how many times you can use abilities without going oom) AND/OR add one(or two) new stats to the game known as Spell Defense/Weapon Defense. Spell Defense would affect how strong your heals/dmg shields are where as weapon defense(not sure if this is really needed just throwing it out there) would affect the heal of rally/vigor and any other stamina based survival tool I may be missing. Spell Defense would replace Spell damage on the obvious support like sets such as Kargenacs Hope and Healer set etc where Spell dmg would stay on the obvious offensive sets i.e Julianos, Burning Spell Weave etc. Same for Weapon defense (if needed).

I want to use Sorcerer's as an example since I see a lot of people complain about them ( right next to nightblades). People complain that Sorcerers have HIGH dmg, and HIGH mitigation because of what we have now. If these changes were to take place, Sorcerers who stacked for spell defense could AND should be hard to kill with their shield stacking. However they wouldnt nearly have the dMG to take someone out in a mere few moments. The opposite is also true if they decided to stack more into spell dmg. They could kill in a couple of seconds, but their shields would be so weak one of attack of your choice would rip right through their damage shields and probably cut Into their health... then we have the sorc that is a jack of all trades..

This change would bring us closer to soft cap days as well as also bring racials more in line with each other as well as the champion system. Hell we might even see the return of hybrid builds. We would also see people starting to put points into health (OMG health!)! Anyways like I said that was just my two cents.

lolo_01b16_ESO

How would you handle skills that are used for offense and defense at the same time? (like funnel health, sweep or flame lash)
How would you handle skills that are neither offense nor defense? (elemental drain or orbs)
How should a healer handle the portals at wgt 3rd boss if he doesn't do any damage?

In my opinion there are better ways that don't involve creating new stats. They could change the hp / magicka ratio back to it's old value. (You used to get 1.5 times as much health as magicka or stamina, which made putting points in hp more attractive.) They also could carefully increase the armour mitigation cap, and buff heavy armour that way. Furthermore they could weaken the ressource management of light / medium armour, so you can't go full damage and stay at full magicka all the time.

Nightwolfmenace

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

How would you handle skills that are used for offense and defense at the same time? (like funnel health, sweep or flame lash)
How would you handle skills that are neither offense nor defense? (elemental drain or orbs)
How should a healer handle the portals at wgt 3rd boss if he doesn't do any damage?

In my opinion there are better ways that don't involve creating new stats. They could change the hp / magicka ratio back to it's old value. (You used to get 1.5 times as much health as magicka or stamina, which made putting points in hp more attractive.) They also could carefully increase the armour mitigation cap, and buff heavy armour that way. Furthermore they could weaken the ressource management of light / medium armour, so you can't go full damage and stay at full magicka all the time.

Sure that is definitely one way to approach it.. but it still doesn't solve the problem of "having your cake and eating it too". I've played a NB Healer once, and I see why it's so powerful in PvE it's rediculous. As many have said "A healers gear isn't much different from a DPS gear. It's mostly just the skills used". My NB was technically a 4th DPS and with a good group, we ignore much of the mechanics to a fight because of how high the damage is. You can also use VMSA to see what type of builds has the best chance towards completing succesfully.

Sure with these changes, things would have to be rebalanced much in the same way they rebalanced the game when they removed soft caps. For the skills you mentioned a simple option would be too change it to where it heals a flat amount instead of it based off dmg done. Or you could go the avg dmg/avg sustain route I mentioned earlier. I'm not too familiar with elemental drain, but orbs would be bazed off spell defense and make the resource return higher. As for white gold tower... you don't need high dmg to take out a portal... a low dmg tank can gap close and 1 attack of their choice and portal is gone... like I said content would be rebalanced to compensate for the change similar to what they did in the past but it shouldn't be an issue.

CyrusArya

No. I'm a solo/small scale player. This play style is only feasible because it is possible to kill players fast while still being able to maintain survivability while outnumbered. And even then, even with the most powerful builds, it's not easy- but- it's possible. What you are suggesting would kill small scale PvP for all of us and basically force everyone into Zerging around. Before you say anything about class balance, understand that such play is possible on every single class, because every class can be built for power and survivability. Stop trying to neuter powerful builds and kill solo/small scale PvP. I know for a fact that myself and many other people I know would quit the game the day they make 1vX, small scale, or outnumbered PvP impossible. Which is exactly what your suggestions would bring about.

The system is fine as it is. Just tweak individual skills as necessary, but no need for a massive overhaul to the system. I'm confident that'll end up creating more problems than solution.

Nightwolfmenace

CyrusArya wrote: »

No. I'm a solo/small scale player. This play style is only feasible because it is possible to kill players fast while still being able to maintain survivability while outnumbered. And even then, even with the most powerful builds, it's not easy- but- it's possible. What you are suggesting would kill small scale PvP for all of us and basically force everyone into Zerging around. Before you say anything about class balance, understand that such play is possible on every single class, because every class can be built for power and survivability. Stop trying to neuter powerful builds and kill solo/small scale PvP. I know for a fact that myself and many other people I know would quit the game the day they make 1vX, small scale, or outnumbered PvP impossible. Which is exactly what your suggestions would bring about.

The system is fine as it is. Just tweak individual skills as necessary, but no need for a massive overhaul to the system. I'm confident that'll end up creating more problems than solution.

Sry for the late reply. IRL was getting to be a little OP. But as a solo 1VX person myself, I honestly agree with you. IN THE CURRENT STATE of the game, since Cyrodil is our only form of PvP, putting a patch balance like this would be horrible for many people, myself included. I wont argue that. It doesn't change the fact that the current game mechanic is still imbalanced, but for now it performs well with what we have. Just because every class has the ability to "Have your Cake and eat it too" doesn't make the game balanced, it just makes it "fair". Take a look at a couple of other MMO with WvW in it. I challenge you to go and 1v3 anyone and make it out on top. For the most part, 1v2 and 1v3 in those games are the equivalent of 1v5, 1v8 in this game. Despite myself being a solo 1vxer, YOU SHOULD NOT BE REWARDED OR ABLE TO TAKE DOWN A LARGE GROUP of players, despite how unskilled they are by yourself (even though you might like to). And that's the way the system is going to end up going and kind of already is.

However, if you duel a lot, which I'm going to assume you have, youd notice the imbalances between the current system we have in place, and if ARENAs and Battlegrounds were to come out with the current system in tact, it would be a nightmare despite any amount of tweaks because of power creep. Now maybe adding new stats to the game probably isn't the best way to go, like I said above it was an AND/OR situation.. however I feel resources affecting survivability and damage of abilities definitely needs to be removed.

And to clarify once more.. THESE CHANGES WOULD TAKE PLACE WHEN WE HAVE SOME OTHER FORM OF PVP LIKE ARENA AND BATTLEGROUNDS to properly balance the game.

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

sstannnnnncess....................

Nightwolfmenace

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

sstannnnnncess....................

Stances would be nice option.

old_mufasa

have to ask.. should 1vX be even viable... I can understand if skill and gear allowed you to fight more then one person at a time.. but I really don't think saying.. lets not balance because I want to 1vX groups of people... well that just screams of unbalanced class issues right out of the gate.

Nightwolfmenace

old_mufasa wrote: »

have to ask.. should 1vX be even viable... I can understand if skill and gear allowed you to fight more then one person at a time.. but I really don't think saying.. lets not balance because I want to 1vX groups of people... well that just screams of unbalanced class issues right out of the gate.

That's the point I made above. The whole point of cyrodil... and albeit any WvW seige/war type of MMO, is to GROUP up. It's to organize an army to capture resources. 1vX isn't a design intention, and is not the focus of Cyrodil. Yes, if you vastly out gear and out skill someone, you should be able to "1vX"...but to a certain degree. In other more balanced MMOs, 1v3 is a hugen accomplishment and anything more usually spells death. But here with a fotm build, I can solo 1v5 more often than not, and occasionally get that *phew* 1v8 moment.... to put it in better perspective... if I tried to do what I did now back when soft caps were in place... I'd have a much much more difficult time pulling it off.

Alas.. 1vXing is part of the fun for me In this game because UNLIKE other MMOs... this one does not come with Arenas or Battlegrounds... it's with these features that developers can properly balance their classes. Dueling right now in its current state is a joke and very imbalanced... and only when ZOS implements these features is when the game will start to move in a more balanced direction.

Nightwolfmenace

Came up with a better idea that still shares the whole "having your cake and eating it too" concept. This one revolves around the champion system. Know how we have 3 constellations (Mage = Damage, Thief = Sustain, Warrior = Tank)? Why not just change the champion system to allow a character to specialize in one of the three constellations? You want your end game character to be burst oriented.. go stack points into the mage tree... hybrid/sustain go thief... tank go warrior. That could potentially fix alot of problems we have with the lack of build diversity instead of changing/adding stats. Thoughts?

Solanum

Here are a few ideas to make combat in ESO balanced:

1- Cooldowns:
because just balancing skills around cost and damage/healing really limits the gameplay.
I'm not talking about 3 minute cooldowns here, rendering 20% of your skills unavailable for most the time, I'm talking about 4 to 15 second cooldowns.

2- Meaningful stats:
If you are a stamina DPS there is no reason you'd ever want 20 points in magicka, but perhaps if a very nice and synergetic skill would require 20 points of magicka (an awesome self heal, cloak of shadows, or buff) you'd decide this would suit your build.

This would also take away the issue of needing softcaps, or gimping hybrids.

Also, do something about health please, it's nothing more then a damage buffer, increasing health doesn't increase mitigation, healing, or damage, while increasing magicka and stamina offers better mitigation, healing, and damage.

If nothing else make high health regenerate more health, receive more healing, and mitigate more damage.

3- Animation cancelling:
Seriously, if you are claiming the gameplay is about players responding to visual cues, animation cancelling is one of the worst things ever. I understand it'd be a really bad thing for a player to be unable to block when he swings, or uses a skill. But rather I would see the effect of a skill land once the animation has finished. This way players can respond to what is happening, and actions won't be hidden behind a cancelled animation.

And these are just three ideas, there is a vast amount of options to fix and balance this game. And there are plenty of very able PVP-ers whom have a solid understanding of how the game works.

Nightwolfmenace

Solanum wrote: »

Here are a few ideas to make combat in ESO balanced:

1- Cooldowns:
because just balancing skills around cost and damage/healing really limits the gameplay.
I'm not talking about 3 minute cooldowns here, rendering 20% of your skills unavailable for most the time, I'm talking about 4 to 15 second cooldowns.

2- Meaningful stats:
If you are a stamina DPS there is no reason you'd ever want 20 points in magicka, but perhaps if a very nice and synergetic skill would require 20 points of magicka (an awesome self heal, cloak of shadows, or buff) you'd decide this would suit your build.

This would also take away the issue of needing softcaps, or gimping hybrids.

Also, do something about health please, it's nothing more then a damage buffer, increasing health doesn't increase mitigation, healing, or damage, while increasing magicka and stamina offers better mitigation, healing, and damage.

If nothing else make high health regenerate more health, receive more healing, and mitigate more damage.

3- Animation cancelling:
Seriously, if you are claiming the gameplay is about players responding to visual cues, animation cancelling is one of the worst things ever. I understand it'd be a really bad thing for a player to be unable to block when he swings, or uses a skill. But rather I would see the effect of a skill land once the animation has finished. This way players can respond to what is happening, and actions won't be hidden behind a cancelled animation.

And these are just three ideas, there is a vast amount of options to fix and balance this game. And there are plenty of very able PVP-ers whom have a solid understanding of how the game works.

1) While this would be a great way to balance the game, ESO's "cooldown management" is supposedly based off how well we can manage our resources... but im pretty sure we both no resource management for the most part is out the window so... xD

2)No qualms here

3) As an avid user of animation cancelation I agree. You should still be able to "clip" the skill with others shortening the animation of said use like most fighting games.. (perfect example of clipping animation in this game is WB spam.. consecutive WB use seems have a sped up animation after the first WB) but completely hiding the animation on a game that realies on visual ques is just plain wrong. Light Attack - Skill is another form of clipping an animation.
Makes me think of a time when there was a bug in a game known as Dark Souls 2, where you can completely hide the animation of a parry with a dodge roll/backstep... taking what was suppose to be a high risk/ high reward technique (parrying) and turning it into a low risk/high reward technique as you would still dodge the attack while parrying the player, setting the player up for a huge visceral attack while he only saw you do a dodge roll.

P.S.. Dont worry its been fixed xD

dodgehopper_ESO

This is an issue I've been talking about for some time now.

Here is a thread I posted on the matter at one point:
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/211441/a-suggestion-towards-balance-between-health-magicka-and-stamina#latesthttp://

Here's one by @RAGUNAnoOne
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/241383/a-kiss-way-to-make-health-a-decent-attribute#latest

Nightwolfmenace

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

This is an issue I've been talking about for some time now.

Here is a thread I posted on the matter at one point:
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/211441/a-suggestion-towards-balance-between-health-magicka-and-stamina#latesthttp://

Here's one by @RAGUNAnoOne
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/241383/a-kiss-way-to-make-health-a-decent-attribute#latest

Love the idea of armor skills and some of the general mechanics of the game to scale off health. Would make for more diversified combat without needing to resort to soft caps except in the place of infinite regen... which could be tackled with the champion system change i mentioned a little while ago.

GreenSoup2HoT

i agree because of reasons

Nightwolfmenace

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

i agree because of reasons

Why hello dar