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Stam sorcs really need more DPS utilities
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aLi3nZ✭✭✭✭Sourcer is a magic based character, its pretty obvious from the start. Not sure why you feel entitled to have stamina based abilities and morphs for a mage class.1 -
Steel_Brightblade✭✭✭✭
I think the rest of his opinions were dragon "knights" should only wear heavy armour and tank, templars only heal and nightblades must only dps, from behind, using daggers...
Some people just don't want to break away from fixed classes and roles.
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aLi3nZ✭✭✭✭I started playing maybe 5 or 6 months ago. I did notice many of these players who have broken away from the norm. I guess they have been playing a lot longer but they sure are a lot easier to kill. Magika nightblade, stam sourc, stam Templar. All a lot weaker than playing the strengths of the class. Variety is always good but maybe what would be better is more classes rather then adding or changing morphs and skills for these existing ones.
Btw dragon knight dps builds are my worst nightmare as a sourc. 16k taking flight damage and reflective scales + wrecking blow etc. usually I just streak away. So yeah would prefer they just tank and hold the block key. ThanksEdited by aLi3nZ on January 14, 2016 1:37PM0 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I started playing maybe 5 or 6 months ago. I did notice many of these players who have broken away from the norm. I guess they have been playing a lot longer but they sure are a lot easier to kill. Magika nightblade, stam sourc, stam Templar. All a lot weaker than playing the strengths of the class. Variety is always good but maybe what would be better is more classes rather then adding or changing morphs and skills for these existing ones.
Lol at magicka-NBs beeing a lot weaker and easier to kill than their stam counterpart XDNoobplar2 -
Jar_Ek✭✭✭✭✭@Destruent Actually I tank pledges with my stamina sorcerer, so face tanking a boss is kinda important sometimes... and yes better survivability ultimates would certainly help. When not doing that I agree in pve a decent healer and a lot of crit will ser me through most things... in PvP not so much.0 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Destruent Actually I tank pledges with my stamina sorcerer, so face tanking a boss is kinda important sometimes... and yes better survivability ultimates would certainly help. When not doing that I agree in pve a decent healer and a lot of crit will ser me through most things... in PvP not so much.
i usually use agressive warhorn when tanking...i (and many others) think it's BiS in almost every situation for tanks and healers
Edited by Destruent on January 14, 2016 2:24PMNoobplar0 -
AverageJo3Gam3r✭✭✭✭✭Usually I'm against stam morphs for sorcs because it's supposed to be a magic class. People run stam sorcs for the utility (crit surge, streak, etc). However, the proposed stam morphs for fury and shards are reasonable because the other morphs of these skills suck. I'm against useless morphs.
Both morphs of lightning flood are good and same with daedric curse. They shouldn't touch those skills. (Well, actually, daedric curse should focus your pets attention on that enemy, but that's another thread ) 1 -
Jar_Ek✭✭✭✭✭Yep that's what I use too, but there are some bosses where I really wish I had corrosive armour or veil of blades.0
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AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »Usually I'm against stam morphs for sorcs because it's supposed to be a magic class.
News flash, there is a stamina variant of all classes. This is INTENDED by ZOS or they wouldn't have made stamina morphs.
Where are you people getting this garbage? Sorcerer is not "Supposed" to be magicka only. In Elder Scrolls lore Sorcerers have always been a mix of a Warrior/mage with Magic/swords etc. They have almost always had heavy armor passives and used blades. This is not traditional fantasy, this is Elder Scrolls. Stop assuming what a class is "supposed" to be, Elder Scrolls has always been a 'play as you want' game.5 -
jeskah✭✭✭I started playing maybe 5 or 6 months ago. I did notice many of these players who have broken away from the norm. I guess they have been playing a lot longer but they sure are a lot easier to kill. Magika nightblade, stam sourc, stam Templar. All a lot weaker than playing the strengths of the class. Variety is always good but maybe what would be better is more classes rather then adding or changing morphs and skills for these existing ones.
Btw dragon knight dps builds are my worst nightmare as a sourc. 16k taking flight damage and reflective scales + wrecking blow etc. usually I just streak away. So yeah would prefer they just tank and hold the block key. Thanks
For the record, at the start of the game, every class ablity was magicka based - everything - and only the weapon skills (dw,2h,bow,sb) was stamina based.
(Of course, the original concept still causes problems and still not changed entirely, but here we go.)2 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Please don't give me that flack about Thundering Presence. The AOE dot on that is laughable, the major expedition for 4 seconds is a joke and all for a high stamina cost. I don't know any stam sorcs who won't use Boundless Storm, the magicka version. So yeah, thanks for that cool utility ZOS. Much appreciated. Really blew our socks off.
So what would be nice?
As I said, if you can't/won't remove the passive restrictions, I'd really like to see some more DPS utilities for us to use, to help keep the pressure on our targets.
Here's some suggestions Magicka sorcs are going to QQ about, but at this point, I really don't care.
1. A stamina morph of Lightning Splash OR Mages Fury
2. A stamina morph of Daedric Curse. Must be within melee range to cast so they can't just stand back shooting at people, which wouldn't make any sense. It would obviously scale off weapon damage and max stamina.
3. Turn Crystal Blast into a stam version. Can only be cast within melee range and scales off weapon damage/max stamina.
Looks like this pertains moreso to PvP than PvE, so I'll give my input for only that side of it (as I do both forms of content with my stam sorc).
First, I agree that it would be nice to have a stam morph of crystal shards and daedric curse. I would use both of these in pve and pvp alike.
As far as of pvp goes as a stam sorc, there is quite a bit of utility, and hopefully I can offer something you don't know of already. I occasionally use dark deal for the stamina, and the passive stam/health recovery. More often I use Defensive Rune, which plays very well with a 2h primary. Often times I activate the rune and crit rush once the CC hits, and usually there is time to throw in a wrecking blow while they are CC'd or breaking free. It's also saved me from getting ganked by NBs on many, many occasions. You will still take damage from the initial snipe (or w/e they're using) but they become immediately CC'd afterwards, and they lose their advantage. Some players will overcome this, but generally it saves me.
Usually on my off-bar I dual wield, but sometimes bow. When I dual wield I've found that daedric minefield is useful for busting up groups or establishing a small, temporary safe-zone for resource management, or baiting people into a kill setup. I've also seen other stam sorcs make good use of encase, though it's not my personal preference. My favorite utility is Defensive Rune by far. It wins duels and it gets you away from a decisive loss alive.
I don't share the same sentiment with Thundering Pressence as you. I use this skill 100% of the time, no matter what content I'm in, and find the cost of it to be negligible. The DoT can be buffed through the elemental CP passives, but I ran some quick numbers on this and found that precise strikes is more effective, at least for my build. Particularly in pvp, Thundering Presence is useful, regardless of whether you are trying to keep at range, or always stay in melee. The damage doesn't need to be significant, because it gives all of the armor & spell resist, plus expedition, which I would argue is far more useful than you make it out to be in this post. Yes, it's duration is a little too short. But it's still incredibly useful. I have never, and never will, use streak as a stam build.Edited by Autolycus on January 14, 2016 7:26PM0 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I started playing maybe 5 or 6 months ago. I did notice many of these players who have broken away from the norm. I guess they have been playing a lot longer but they sure are a lot easier to kill. Magika nightblade, stam sourc, stam Templar. All a lot weaker than playing the strengths of the class.
1v15 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Doncellius wrote: »I like all of these ideas... except for Daedric Curse. Right now, one morph cuts the time it takes to detonate, while the other is a vital morph for pet builds to do dps (from what it sounds like, maybe a magicka pet build sorc could speak on this). They're both important. Not sure how you could add a stamina morph without having three morphs for this ability!
I would give stam sorcs the execute and crystal slash for sure though with the improved passives!
Didn't someone do the math a while ago and found that daedric prey did less overall damage than velocious unless you had all of your pets, atronach included, hitting the target? Also when I tried that morph on my magicka sorc I found it a pain since if you wait on reapplying the curse your pets will not get the buff but if you cast it to soon it won't detonate for a majority of the damage.
EDIT: found the thread - http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/225013/velocious-curse-and-daedric-prey-comparison-daedric-prey-still-worse-for-petsEdited by CP5 on January 14, 2016 9:05PM2 -
Tamanous✭✭✭✭✭I'm actually very interested in a stam sorc build but the lack of stam class morphs kills it for me along with the entire pet concept obliterated as everything scaled off of magicka.
This game would have benefited more if the primary class skill was one of the existing morphs and then the 2 morphs were a combo of 1: Another magicka optios equally potent but different, 2: a stam option for every skill.
As it stands now the original skills is left pointless and unused in most situations. It is a waste of a skill option as it is typically just a place holder until morphed anyway. I consider the current morph system highly flawed.Edited by Tamanous on January 14, 2016 9:25PM1 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I started playing maybe 5 or 6 months ago. I did notice many of these players who have broken away from the norm. I guess they have been playing a lot longer but they sure are a lot easier to kill. Magika nightblade, stam sourc, stam Templar. All a lot weaker than playing the strengths of the class. Variety is always good but maybe what would be better is more classes rather then adding or changing morphs and skills for these existing ones.
Btw dragon knight dps builds are my worst nightmare as a sourc. 16k taking flight damage and reflective scales + wrecking blow etc. usually I just streak away. So yeah would prefer they just tank and hold the block key. Thanks
If you've run into magicka NBs, Stam Sorcs, and Stamplars that were so bad it resulted in considering the entire population who runs those builds as "weak," then you did not play against someone worth playing to begin with. I've seen (and played) magicka NBs and Stam Sorcs that could tear you apart before you even knew they were there, and even in a prolonged 1v1 they both have incredible sustain and mitigation, plus self-healing potential. Don't even get me started on Stamplars - if you can avoid their CC it can usually go either way. They have very high damage potential, class mitigation and self-heals (no, I'm not talking about BoL) and mobility. I think you're just going up against the wrong people.0 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭I started playing maybe 5 or 6 months ago. I did notice many of these players who have broken away from the norm. I guess they have been playing a lot longer but they sure are a lot easier to kill. Magika nightblade, stam sourc, stam Templar. All a lot weaker than playing the strengths of the class. Variety is always good but maybe what would be better is more classes rather then adding or changing morphs and skills for these existing ones.
Btw dragon knight dps builds are my worst nightmare as a sourc. 16k taking flight damage and reflective scales + wrecking blow etc. usually I just streak away. So yeah would prefer they just tank and hold the block key. Thanks
If you've run into magicka NBs, Stam Sorcs, and Stamplars that were so bad it resulted in considering the entire population who runs those builds as "weak," then you did not play against someone worth playing to begin with. I've seen (and played) magicka NBs and Stam Sorcs that could tear you apart before you even knew they were there, and even in a prolonged 1v1 they both have incredible sustain and mitigation, plus self-healing potential. Don't even get me started on Stamplars - if you can avoid their CC it can usually go either way. They have very high damage potential, class mitigation and self-heals (no, I'm not talking about BoL) and mobility. I think you're just going up against the wrong people.
What are you talking about? Rally/Vigor at baseline? None of our healing passives work with non-templar skills. All Stamplar heals will be weaker than DK/NB. Sorc also has more healing with Rally/Vigor/Crit Surge. Are you talking about Repentance? LOL0 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭What are you talking about? Rally/Vigor at baseline? None of our healing passives work with non-templar skills. All Stamplar heals will be weaker than DK/NB. Sorc also has more healing with Rally/Vigor/Crit Surge. Are you talking about Repentance? LOL
Not sure if you're just attempting to troll or legitimately asking what heals stamplars can use? You can run around in cyro as a bow or melee stamplar with only purify aoe HoT, and still come out on top. You can supplement purify by throwing on a single rally or vigor, and then focus almost entirely on damaging and CCing your opponent.
Also, not sure why you're comparing stamplar heals to stam sorcs and NBs - I never said they were better self heals. Typically stamplars are going to outpace stam sorc damage potential anyway, so it seems a fair tradeoff to me. That being said, I don't really see a huge difference in self-heal potential for any of the three.
My point was that if you think they all suck because you went up against one that got squished, you are incorrectly generalizing. And yes, I have seen purify work for a stamplar - amazing huh? It must be magic, or broken.Edited by Autolycus on January 14, 2016 9:57PM0 -
aLi3nZ✭✭✭✭Magika nb can be a good 1v1. But they always seem to spam healing Ward or try cloak evade when you get their health a bit low and they aren't pumping any dps at all at that point so yeah that does make them difficult to kill. Magika nb prob does good in group pvp also.0
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Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Magika nb can be a good 1v1. But they always seem to spam healing Ward or try cloak evade when you get their health a bit low and they aren't pumping any dps at all at that point so yeah that does make them difficult to kill. Magika nb prob does good in group pvp also.
Especially the ones that don't even use cloak in pvp. Because despite popular belief, that is not a NBs only way of surviving, nor is it critical to use if you know what you're doing. (I mean "you" in the general sense)Edited by Autolycus on January 14, 2016 10:00PM0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Also, @Swen_von_Walhallion the main point of my argument was DPS abilities, not utilities. We don't have anything to keep pressure on our targets like other classes do. All we have is toggle effects, passives and a useless version of boundless storm.
I agree with you about Thundering Presence, the mobility should last as long as it does on the Boundless Storm. This is a problem represented in a lot of stamina morphs on class skills though (compare Power extraction to Sap Essence). I would like to point out that you are missing the lightning damage proc from disintegrate passive, which can be really nice., and I find frankly more useful than the comparable Templar skill because it has broader effect. Other than that I agree Boundless/Thundering really are not a big deal outside of their utility, and I think most of us agree its best to go with Boundless and maybe Surge as the magicka dumps for a Stam Sorc.
Your points about Bound Armor I can't agree with. Bound Armor is really good between the boost to heavy attack damage (you can make this medium weaving) and the general boost to Stamina by 8%. I see your complaint but I think Templar has a same/similar problem with Repentance.
There is one other skill I think you're missing out on and that's Overload. I realize it can get reflected back at you, but everyone has to deal with that. It also does lightning damage so I realize that throws a kink in your CP allotment but all classes currently have issues with that in one way shape or form right now. I've done the same thing as you by chucking my atronach in one ultimate slot and overload in the other, but I've also gone Overload/Flawless. Overload is no joke being a spammable ultimate that you can use to either recharge your magicka or create a big swath of damage.
I don't think a class needs to have a stamina attack to be good, particularly when its utilities/passives strongly boost weapon damage. By the same token I'm not entirely against the idea, but I'm just making the point that I personally really like what they did to Stamina Sorcs. I do agree with the notion that Toggles are dumb in a game like this. I'd much rather bound armaments were a long duration clicky (like DK Spike armor) than the passive toggle that it is. I feel the same way about the pets, the floaty fireball for dk's, and the shiny glowball for mages guild. I just don't like toggles in this game, they don't fit. This would also give guys like you the option to throw Bound Armaments on the buff bar, and swap to something else, giving you the option to use something else from daedric line. Costs, duration and the rest of it would have to be changed to suit of course.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
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EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>0 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Not sure if you're just attempting to troll or legitimately asking what heals stamplars can use? You can run around in cyro as a bow or melee stamplar with only purify aoe HoT, and still come out on top. You can supplement purify by throwing on a single rally or vigor, and then focus almost entirely on damaging and CCing your opponent.What are you talking about? Rally/Vigor at baseline? None of our healing passives work with non-templar skills. All Stamplar heals will be weaker than DK/NB. Sorc also has more healing with Rally/Vigor/Crit Surge. Are you talking about Repentance? LOL
Also, not sure why you're comparing stamplar heals to stam sorcs and NBs - I never said they were better self heals. Typically stamplars are going to outpace stam sorc damage potential anyway, so it seems a fair tradeoff to me. That being said, I don't really see a huge difference in self-heal potential for any of the three.
My point was that if you think they all suck because you went up against one that got squished, you are incorrectly generalizing. And yes, I have seen purify work for a stamplar - amazing huh? It must be magic, or broken.
The reason I responded is because you wrote : "They (Templar) have very high damage potential, class mitigation and self-heals (no, I'm not talking about BoL) and mobility.
You directly implied that Templars have VERY high dmg, mitigation, self heals and mobility. You are wrong on almost every point. Lets review:
Damage: This isn't PVE, in PVP Biting Jabs is not that great, it's easy to dodge or strafe and it requires all four hits landing AND a burning light proc to compare to Wrecking Blow. Power of the Light/Backlash can not crit over the dmg cap and results in a loss in DPS compared to just spamming jabs which I already pointed out is only comparable to WB sometimes. Finally you have Binding Javelin which does *** poor dmg and is really only used as a ST CC.
Compared to other stamina classes Templar does LESS dmg in pvp.
Mitigation: Templar has no better/worse mitigation than any other class and I don't feel like reviewing every skill. Although I'd argue our reflect sucks.
Healing: This is the big one. Healing is supposed to be every Templar's primary strength right? The reason I compared it to Sorc and DK is because out of all the classes Templar is the only one who loses the classes primary identifying trait for choosing to go the Stamina route.
DK gets access to Major Mending meaning their rally and vigor is up to 40% +++ stronger than Templar. Sorc just gets bonus healing from crits.
In PVE Stamplar is fine and does well comparatively however Stamplar in PVP is absolutely not a powerhouse and suffers from bad passives and broken skills. Does this mean you can never win as a Stamplar? NO NO NO NO, ultimately it always comes down to player skill but Stampar adds the least amount of bonuses to a Stamina build period. Currently.
Edited to update edited quoteEdited by ZOS_CoriJ on February 4, 2016 10:18PM2 -
MrGigglypants✭✭✭Stam sorcs are fine most use bow and 2H so use volley for your liquid morph use 2H for executive and bow for single target dot. The QQ woe is me is real these days.0
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Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »Also, @Swen_von_Walhallion the main point of my argument was DPS abilities, not utilities. We don't have anything to keep pressure on our targets like other classes do. All we have is toggle effects, passives and a useless version of boundless storm.
There is one other skill I think you're missing out on and that's Overload. I realize it can get reflected back at you, but everyone has to deal with that. It also does lightning damage so I realize that throws a kink in your CP allotment but all classes currently have issues with that in one way shape or form right now. I've done the same thing as you by chucking my atronach in one ultimate slot and overload in the other, but I've also gone Overload/Flawless. Overload is no joke being a spammable ultimate that you can use to either recharge your magicka or create a big swath of damage.
Overload actually IS a joke on a Stamsorc compared to overload on magicka sorc. i can hit a maximum of about 20...22k DPS with overload on Stamsorc, which is extremely low
But i agree, Overload has nice Utility, I used it for ranged-DPS in vMSAIn PVE Stamplar is fine and does well comparatively however Stamplar in PVP is absolutely not a powerhouse and suffers from bad passives and broken skills. Does this mean you can never win as a Stamplar? NO NO NO NO, ultimately it always comes down to player skill but Stampar adds the least amount of bonuses to a Stamina build period. Currently.
Stamplar is probably the lowest PvE-DPS possible...so it's everything but fine!
Edited by Destruent on January 14, 2016 11:16PMNoobplar1 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Overload actually IS a joke on a Stamsorc compared to overload on magicka sorc. i can hit a maximum of about 20...22k DPS with overload on Stamsorc, which is extremely low
But i agree, Overload has nice Utility, I used it for ranged-DPS in vMSA
I agree with this. Overload is fun but is simply not as cohesive with stam sorc abilities relative to their magicka counterparts.Stamplar is probably the lowest PvE-DPS possible...so it's everything but fine!
I've seen some stamplars pull incredibly high numbers (30k+) which is at the very least comparable to the damage potential of many other "hot" builds atm. I'm not going to outright disagree with you, because I'm sure if we discussed it further we'd find common ground on a variety of specific points regarding stamplar damage potential. But as a general statement, I think stamplars have very high damage potential.0 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Overload actually IS a joke on a Stamsorc compared to overload on magicka sorc. i can hit a maximum of about 20...22k DPS with overload on Stamsorc, which is extremely low
But i agree, Overload has nice Utility, I used it for ranged-DPS in vMSA
I agree with this. Overload is fun but is simply not as cohesive with stam sorc abilities relative to their magicka counterparts.Stamplar is probably the lowest PvE-DPS possible...so it's everything but fine!
I've seen some stamplars pull incredibly high numbers (30k+) which is at the very least comparable to the damage potential of many other "hot" builds atm. I'm not going to outright disagree with you, because I'm sure if we discussed it further we'd find common ground on a variety of specific points regarding stamplar damage potential. But as a general statement, I think stamplars have very high damage potential IN PVE.
Fixed that for you.0 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've seen some stamplars pull incredibly high numbers (30k+) which is at the very least comparable to the damage potential of many other "hot" builds atm. I'm not going to outright disagree with you, because I'm sure if we discussed it further we'd find common ground on a variety of specific points regarding stamplar damage potential. But as a general statement, I think stamplars have very high damage potential IN PVE.
Fixed that for you.
I won't outright disagree with you on that either. I have still seen some strong stamplar pvp builds and had my fair share of good 1v1s against stamplars. For me, it's about the driver and not the car. I do think it's easier to stamplar PvE than PvP.Edited by Autolycus on January 14, 2016 11:27PM0 -
MrGigglypants✭✭✭dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »Also, @Swen_von_Walhallion the main point of my argument was DPS abilities, not utilities. We don't have anything to keep pressure on our targets like other classes do. All we have is toggle effects, passives and a useless version of boundless storm.
There is one other skill I think you're missing out on and that's Overload. I realize it can get reflected back at you, but everyone has to deal with that. It also does lightning damage so I realize that throws a kink in your CP allotment but all classes currently have issues with that in one way shape or form right now. I've done the same thing as you by chucking my atronach in one ultimate slot and overload in the other, but I've also gone Overload/Flawless. Overload is no joke being a spammable ultimate that you can use to either recharge your magicka or create a big swath of damage.
Overload actually IS a joke on a Stamsorc compared to overload on magicka sorc. i can hit a maximum of about 20...22k DPS with overload on Stamsorc, which is extremely low
But i agree, Overload has nice Utility, I used it for ranged-DPS in vMSAIn PVE Stamplar is fine and does well comparatively however Stamplar in PVP is absolutely not a powerhouse and suffers from bad passives and broken skills. Does this mean you can never win as a Stamplar? NO NO NO NO, ultimately it always comes down to player skill but Stampar adds the least amount of bonuses to a Stamina build period. Currently.
Stamplar is probably the lowest PvE-DPS possible...so it's everything but fine!
You're doing something wrong lol0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm actually noticing almost the opposite problem. I can't get away from rally and 2 hand.
If surge had the same heal over time, I could use it and drop 2 hand.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
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Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm actually noticing almost the opposite problem. I can't get away from rally and 2 hand.
If surge had the same heal over time, I could use it and drop 2 hand.
That's a pretty interesting point actually. For me, the thing that really makes stam sorc stand out is that they aren't restricted to a particular type of weapon.
What I mean by that is we don't have to rely on dual wielding or 2h to get major brutality. We got that built in.
If surge had a reliable heal as well, it would make them even more independent and viable.1