A Competitive Guide to Templar Veteran Maelstrom Arena

Nifty2g

Zlater wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Sharmony wrote: »

As for the divines, yes, I definitely agree for templar, but if you study some of the other classes magicka : spell damage : actual damage ratio's for individual skills; the line becomes far closer for the crit (divines) being the better, also dependent on content and circumstance too.

Could you expand on this section a bit more? As far as I'm aware most people try fitting
Ability = a*Magicka + b*Spell Damage + c
They do a linear regression to find a, b and c. From @Zlater's data, for most skills the ratio b/a is around 10.5. I personally use
Ability = a'*(Magicka+10.5*Spell Damage)
as it gets close enough to the ability tooltip and makes subsequent calculations easier. I, specifically checked Puncturing Sweep and @Zlater puts a = 0.0146 and b = 0.155 for Puncturing Sweep.

Sharmony wrote: »

One of my biggest frustrations is that I believe none of us theorycrafter's have covered is the idea of 'scale' in PvE builds, and what type of enemy(ies) we are hitting. Often it's a simple, oh these few armor sets are good instead of, in single target solo this is definitively the best setup, whereas in trials 12man AoE, this is the best setup. Hopefully we'll work on that in the future. Maybe the work me and a friend are doing plotting all the linear regressions for skills will help with this (the idea being you give us your stats and on a target with a flat armor and spell res (which we will be working out pens for in the future) we can predict how much you would hit, and then using a perfect rotation simulation see which setup would pull ahead).

Could I ask how you plan to simulate rotations? At the moment, I'm simply timing a specific rotation and then calculating the average damage for the ability. An example of which I did for @Nifty2g is shown below (right hand side of the spreadsheet)

I'm encountering problems getting really good accuracy on the tooltip values unfortunately which is why I leave the option to specify the actual tooltip value. I'm thinking of maybe creating a few set timings for skills, weaves and bar swaps to automate the search for the optimum rotation. Of course, puncturing sweep will have to be a special case, as all other channelled spells.

If you have the time, I wouldn't mind listening to the concept of 'scale'. All I can glean from it is that perhaps in solo situations your optimisation function will include more regeneration that in a trial situation.

yay me

The coefficient difference between puncturing sweep and most other skills is 10.61 vs 10.51 in the favor of spell damage. I would say its negligible. Especially when considering that the little damage you lose is accounted for in improved resource management and improved shield strength.

@Asayre, I had previously thought of working backward from a FTC report of 'perfect rotations' to determine the best route for optimized DPS based on skill choice. I only imagine this would be on a player to player basis considering little things like how much weapon swapping and animation cancelling the player is doing.

@Nifty2g your build is pretty much perfect, there are a couple things I would like to ask about.

1. Stacking armor for defense, while it is popular, it is actually currently the least effective way of mitigating damage, especially considering it doesn't stack with harness magicka and other shields. I think you choose it because it allows you to move out of it, but have you considered running circle of protection instead?

I personally think its superior because it will keep your magicka topped up much better than channeled focus can, has a far bigger area, provides better overall defense and also gives you your major fortitude buff and its applied before harness. I also notice that in practice you tend to run channeled a lot more in those emergency situations instead of keeping to the theoretical goal of a 100% up-time.

2. Whats your take on reflective light +1 other skill vs inner light vs both?

@Zlater
you mean light armor focus? it was just because i dont run any reinforced and it gives the mitigation i need so i dont get overwhelmed plus im at cp cap so any more points into the others wont be as good mitigation as what i had set up, got the tips from @Asayre on those i also dont like the idea of throwing all my stamina away with CoP, Channeled is up majority of the time I use it to regen magic it lasts 18 seconds so i normally cast it at the start and somewhere in between rounds or if i don't need magic regen at all i dont cast it twice. i cast it when im going to be taking heavy damage for the mitigation either that or bars dont swap when i want to heal myself with breath. bare in mind im typically fine with managing my resources it was just a tip for people who want to start going for competitive scores.

i dont like the idea of that, theres no real point of it, and the extra mages guild passive regen and max magic from inner light is far better, less time you have to waste casting reflective light too and keep the buff up. that and you get minor sorecery from using radiant destruction so it's just less hassle running inner light and I think you get a lot more damage from the passives + max magic with inner light

Sharmony

Asayre wrote: »

Could you expand on this section a bit more? As far as I'm aware most people try fitting
Ability = a*Magicka + b*Spell Damage + c
They do a linear regression to find a, b and c. From @Zlater's data, for most skills the ratio b/a is around 10.5. I personally use
Ability = a'*(Magicka+10.5*Spell Damage)
as it gets close enough to the ability tooltip and makes subsequent calculations easier. I, specifically checked Puncturing Sweep and @Zlater puts a = 0.0146 and b = 0.155 for Puncturing Sweep.

Sorry I have to go back to work in a few minutes but I will basically outline what a friend and I have been doing, please bear in mind I haven't seen @Zlater 's work and purely your own. Moreover, I did a non maths degree, I just enjoy theorycrafting, I often ask my friend for the help on the maths thing with myself being more of a drone to help the processing speed for the numbers. The basic idea is taking a single mob (the crocodile boss in wayrest sewers normal because he can be bugged out making him really easy to test on) and making him our 'test dummy'. We understand that he has set levels of armor and spell resistance and that is something we will come to calculating in the future when varying pens can be applied to the spreadsheet. We don't want to use tooltips, it makes calculations easier but a lot less valid when simulating rotations as I will come on to explain later. So what we have been gradually doing is using every ability in-game and working out the linear regressions for how they scale with both spell damage and magicka alike to this set target with no pen plotting the actual damage produced (luckily it's a straight line linear regression, which speeds up the process). The idea being, if we know certain fluctuations in your stats we can near 99% accurately guess the damage you would do on this mob with a given ability (once again, we need to work out pen in the future). From there things get a little bit more hazey from my side of things (being less mathematical). My idea was simply using a random number generator for crit, if it's below your crit % you crit, higher you fail to crit and so on, allowing you to run multiple sequences of fights where your crit may vary but this might not be what we actually do. Ofc CP and other stat modifiers need to be factored in but I feel like I've covered a baseline here, with the bottom line being, we want to try predict your damage output for a given skill on a set target.

Asayre wrote: »

Could I ask how you plan to simulate rotations? At the moment, I'm simply timing a specific rotation and then calculating the average damage for the ability. An example of which I did for @Nifty2g is shown below (right hand side of the spreadsheet)
I'm encountering problems getting really good accuracy on the tooltip values unfortunately which is why I leave the option to specify the actual tooltip value. I'm thinking of maybe creating a few set timings for skills, weaves and bar swaps to automate the search for the optimum rotation. Of course, puncturing sweep will have to be a special case, as all other channelled spells.

If you have the time, I wouldn't mind listening to the concept of 'scale'. All I can glean from it is that perhaps in solo situations your optimisation function will include more regeneration that in a trial situation.

Simulating rotations would be to know the optimum rotation sequencing and the timings within that rotation. Using recount you can gauge to the millisecond when an ability hits a target, and in a full rotation see what frequency of abilities are you used: e.g. magicka nb: X Light Attacks, 1-2 Assain's Wills, 1 Crippling Grasp, 1 Proxy, X Funnels. Once we know what the smallest margin is between attacks for example a funnel and a LA we can produce a expected damage output from a rotation using the stats that have been previously provided. Now yes, this doesn't yet include ultimate, but the basic idea is we'd define a rotation based on when you use your ultimate, as in dropping your ultimate or just after it's use would be the start of the rotation, and the next time it was up again would signal the end of one set of the rotation. Hence why we've moved away from tooltip values to produce some really high detailed values.

As for scale I will keep it really brief as I am desperately short on time: 12 man you have no sustain issues often due to other buffs, you also have a lot more aggressive war horn coverage and smaller buffs from other players, minor increasing your stats but favoring crit a lot stronger, hence TBS often does better in trials than it does in solo. Solo requires a lot more self sustain etc etc... Hope this helps.

Basically what we're struggling with atm in this project is enthusiasm and time as there's a lot to do, but it's very dry work. The biggest issue atm I can see is combining the results from what we get from magicka and spell damage in order to produce an accurate overall damage value for each skill.

EDIT: Please let us know if you have any help and / or further insight. We stopped work on this around a month ago when I started my new job so really it's only had a day or two put into it so far.

Addihul

There seem to be some discrepancies in your gear spreadsheets. Maybe I am reading them wrong because I am only looking at an image and don't have access to the formulas behind the spreadsheets. Please confirm?

- Recommended CP in your original post claims 100 Magician and 67 Arcanist. I believe your SS's show 0.25 which would be 100 Arcanist am I correct there?
- You have the Seducer 5 pc bonus flagged for your Arch Mage build? I believe that to be an error, but it doesn't translate to the 'actual spell cost' section apparently.
- You account for minor & major sorcery on your Seducer SS and not the Archmage. Just inconsistent and confusing.
- Lastly, the Seducer SS shows 3x WP spell damage enchants, yet it looks like the mag regen you are noting as 1476 in fact can only be achieved with at least 1 piece of recovery jewelry.

Forgive me if I am just looking at this incorrectly but there seems to be inconsistencies worth noting. I may be wrong on some after first glance. Thank you too for the video section. I see some key things you are doing that will help improve times. Also, good thoughts on the use of bastion vs recovery since you're relying heavily on harness.

Nifty2g

Addihul wrote: »

There seem to be some discrepancies in your gear spreadsheets. Maybe I am reading them wrong because I am only looking at an image and don't have access to the formulas behind the spreadsheets. Please confirm?

- Recommended CP in your original post claims 100 Magician and 67 Arcanist. I believe your SS's show 0.25 which would be 100 Arcanist am I correct there?
- You have the Seducer 5 pc bonus flagged for your Arch Mage build? I believe that to be an error, but it doesn't translate to the 'actual spell cost' section apparently.
- You account for minor & major sorcery on your Seducer SS and not the Archmage. Just inconsistent and confusing.
- Lastly, the Seducer SS shows 3x WP spell damage enchants, yet it looks like the mag regen you are noting as 1476 in fact can only be achieved with at least 1 piece of recovery jewelry.

Forgive me if I am just looking at this incorrectly but there seems to be inconsistencies worth noting. I may be wrong on some after first glance. Thank you too for the video section. I see some key things you are doing that will help improve times. Also, good thoughts on the use of bastion vs recovery since you're relying heavily on harness.

yeah i had some images as buffed and unbuffed. ill just remove them to show the unbuffed versions only. also forgot to mention the spell cost i don't believe is actually working right now. 1476 regen is with major intellect

as for my cp that's just something i tried out, for me either work the same i don't notice any difference

theyre all updated now though

Joy_Division

Sharmony wrote: »

My setup seems stronger on stats with Lich, but as we've said before, is very hard to come by. Awesome guide though

Whoa...I was under the impression that jabs was considered a DoT and didn't proc Lich.

Edit: You meant the 5 piece Lich set

Nifty2g

I'm going to be uploading round 9 waves later on guys

myrrrorb14_ESO

Great job Nifty!

Been playing around with this build a bit doing solo stuff. Figured if it works good for Maelstrom should be good for soloing.

Works great! Haven't hit the arena with it yet. But will when I get the time.

Any suggestions for PvP? Seemed to work well enough as is.

Nifty2g

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

Great job Nifty!

Been playing around with this build a bit doing solo stuff. Figured if it works good for Maelstrom should be good for soloing.

Works great! Haven't hit the arena with it yet. But will when I get the time.

Any suggestions for PvP? Seemed to work well enough as is.

I'm really not sure for PVP I mainly heal now seeing as Templars took such a massive hit for dealing decent damage.
Not being able to crit shields and the damage nerf took Templars down a lot, Sweeps is just too weak for the most part, it tickles shields

Bao1340

I dont know how everyone get their magic recovery so high..can someone help me with build for vma..i follow exaclly like this guide with exaclly the same gears but my recovery so low i cant sustain ..Im using 3 arch mage gold divine 5 julianos divines all v16. My champion point is 286 and I distributed it like the guide. My magic recovery is 1.1k spelldmg 2.6k..What am i missing can someone help please

Molag_Crow

Bao1340 wrote: »

I dont know how everyone get their magic recovery so high..can someone help me with build for vma..i follow exaclly like this guide with exaclly the same gears but my recovery so low i cant sustain ..Im using 3 arch mage gold divine 5 julianos divines all v16. My champion point is 286 and I distributed it like the guide. My magic recovery is 1.1k spelldmg 2.6k..What am i missing can someone help please

Are you standing in the odd AOE pools/letting casters hit you on purpose while you have Harness Magicka up? to get some magicka back, and of course trying to stand inside channeled focus, and doing the odd Heavy resto staff attack, and using potions, etc?

I've got a similar set-up but with Kag's hope, and I've got 1k magicka recovery, hmmm.. if you have spell damage on all your jewelry, it may be worth putting a '203 reduced magicka cost of spells' enchant on a ring, like I've done.. my sweeps (combined with about 12% reduced cost in CPs) is costing around 1700 magicka for example.

Addihul

Just switch to attro Mundus Stone. Call it a day. So what if you're not number 1 on the leaderboards

Molag_Crow

Addihul wrote: »

Just switch to attro Mundus Stone. Call it a day. So what if you're not number 1 on the leaderboards

True. I probably will too because my first clear was with attro stone.

Sharmony

Nifty's Build with a few minor changes: Current World #2 Maelstrom Vet Templar Run. Thank you for all the help Nifty once again, can't wait to see you competing

Nifty2g

You don't need to be inside the channeled focus for the magicka return

Molag_Crow

Nifty2g wrote: »

You don't need to be inside the channeled focus for the magicka return

Are you serious? ...

if that's true, then... "learn something new everyday"

sirrmattus

is this updated?

Nifty2g

i use a different set up to this that most players wont like or try out

so, it's best to stick with this version. i'd say it's still very effective

KingYogi415

Awesome!

OlliB6371

Thanks for the awesome guide Nifty2g

Are the Championpoint-settings up to date for the latest patch?
Because there are some changes in Traumaturge (now DoT) etc.

jzholloway

Did you make that spreadsheet?? That spreadsheet looks amazing (seriously)...

Shadowstep2003

I would love to know the new CP split in the mage tree with the THieves Guild Update. I'm unsure how many points to spend in Thurm now with the change to elemental expert @Nifty2g

Pallio

Has anyone tried 2×Soria, 5xJulianos, 3x willpower and 2x torug swords build? And the new CP?

Khairiah

Does Harness Magicka still work on the spinning blades in stage 2? I heard they have changed it to physical dmg, so that Harness dont work.

It doesnt.

Duckbutta

Maybe I'm not seeing it on the spreadsheet or elsewhere, but is your armor 5/1/1? I'm assuming it is to maximize Undaunted passives.

seanewlesb16_ESO

Im sorry I'm new to the game trying to figure out a build. I cant see anywhere if your armor is light or heavy?

Nifty2g

Yes this is 5 Light 1 Medium 1 Heavy
I don't really do Maelstrom however to update this at all. Once a lot of the stuff is fixed I may however update this, I just have a lot of issues with Maelstrom at the moment.

Blevil

How do you get over 3k magika recovery with that build? I would be happy with 2k lol

Autolycus

@Nifty2g

Hey there, what recommendations do you have in place of DB of Smiting and Proxy Det? With DB now dealing physical damage for both morphs, the knockdown is the real reason to still be using it. Is it really still worthwhile? It seems that Shooting Star would be better in most cases that we'd use an ult, particularly since most bosses are stagnant for a reasonable time.

Proxy Det's damage got nerfed not so long ago, and I haven't known it to be all that popular in vma anymore. What are your thoughts? I know I don't use it on my magblade, but magplar is more your area of expertise.

In a gear setup that includes 5pc Julianos, 4pc Magnus, 3 Willpower, what can you recommend that may help with sustain issues, without trading SD jewelry glyphs? This is on a max-CP toon with a typical meta allocation.

Thanks in advance!

Destyran

Autolycus wrote: »

@Nifty2g

Hey there, what recommendations do you have in place of DB of Smiting and Proxy Det? With DB now dealing physical damage for both morphs, the knockdown is the real reason to still be using it. Is it really still worthwhile? It seems that Shooting Star would be better in most cases that we'd use an ult, particularly since most bosses are stagnant for a reasonable time.

Proxy Det's damage got nerfed not so long ago, and I haven't known it to be all that popular in vma anymore. What are your thoughts? I know I don't use it on my magblade, but magplar is more your area of expertise.

In a gear setup that includes 5pc Julianos, 4pc Magnus, 3 Willpower, what can you recommend that may help with sustain issues, without trading SD jewelry glyphs? This is on a max-CP toon with a typical meta allocation.

Thanks in advance!

Try ritual of retribution. And just ise meteor and nova!!! And put 120 cp in first blue tree for arcane well passive and keep down your channeled focus. And definately switch a sd enchant for a cost reduction. Until you get a vmsa resto

Nifty2g

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