Health stat | Discussion

Ashamray

Hello,

I've already noticed some interesting thoughts about health stat and decided to open a thread where we can collect ideas concerning this resource. Health is usually taken for granted - we need certain amount of it. I find this situation boring as in all other games.
What I have noticed (sorry, guys, can't remember nicknames):

• Health can increase all regeneration: stamina, magicka and health
• Health can influence on diffrent aspects of the game, for example, increase efficiency of potions.

Would be glad to read your ideas.

Ankael07

I'd like to connect ingame health with reality at this point.

After certain points in HP you would have ''Healthy'' bonus which improves overall regen.And with each amount of points this bonus would improve as tiers.More tweaks like healing received + sprint speed bonus, reduced cost with skills (etc etc) with further tiers.This could at least convince some people to change their min/max builds for more resource management based one

Xvorg

Ashamray wrote: »

Hello,

I've already noticed some interesting thoughts about health stat and decided to open a thread where we can collect ideas concerning this resource. Health is usually taken for granted - we need certain amount of it. I find this situation boring as in all other games.
What I have noticed (sorry, guys, can't remember nicknames):

• Health can increase all regeneration: stamina, magicka and health
• Health can influence on diffrent aspects of the game, for example, increase efficiency of potions.

Would be glad to read your ideas.

That sole change would improve the game for Argonians a lot.

Another option I remember: shields (force fields xD) should depend on health rather than magicka

Cathexis

Shields depending on health makes not a lot of sense to me from a utility perspective.

What good is a higher sheild without the resources to use it.

Soris

Because allowing damage, heal and shield share the same stats causing problems. Meaning glass cannon builds becoming more tankier than actual tanks without the limits of softcaps.

Seperating them would create more viable build options and a choice to going more offensive or more defensive rather than getting all in a package.

Simpliest sollution would be adding more base health and make all shields(and maybe heals too) scale from it.

DannyLV702

Cathexis wrote: »

Shields depending on health makes not a lot of sense to me from a utility perspective.

What good is a higher sheild without the resources to use it.

No. Don't even go there.

ToRelax

Alright, let's look at some balance issues first before trying to fix them, shall we?
One glaring issue for all fights of all groupsizes is too easy resource management. Maybe the 1.5 sustain meta was over the top - I don't think so - but if so, that should be addressed by increasing the effect of damage stats for example. What happened in 1.6 was the removal of softcaps along with a drastic decrease of the health multiplier from 1.5 to 1.1 and the introduction of the champions system.
As a result we had no resource issues with higher damage and lower health pools.

2.1 only addressed the first two symptoms (yeah, treating symptoms), though resource management was only made more difficult for specific defensive moves. That obviously already turns balance in favour of larger groups and would be a thing to address before health pools, so let's talk about balanced group sizes only for now. In that case, lower damage means the fights take longer, and so does easy resource management for offensive skills. What ends such a fight now is mostly burst, stacked from multiple players over few seconds (or one in 1v1 obv.), or bugs/cheesy mechanics, like unbreakable cc, shieldbreaker spam, gankers etc.

Now to make health a more interesting stat again, one logical thing to do would be to increase the health multiplier back to where it was. In this thread there was also the idea mentioned to make health increase all regen stats. Both of these suggestions would, if implemented without changes to resource management, result in even longer fights, in that it is neither feasible to outsustain, nor to burst someone down. It would only make players try to stack even more burst, form larger groups, use more mechanics that don't allow for counterplay. Doesn't sound like something I'd like to see.

So that means, before making health a more attractive (defensive) stat, sustain has to be turned down. Once it takes a lot of sacrifices again to sustain in a fight for a long time - especially when outnumbering your opponents - I would be in favour of increasing the health multiplier to 1.5 again. That has some benefits because as I see it, the game was balanced for that before 1.6. Sun Shield and Obsidian Shield would become more useful, as would Battle Roar, bursting someone down in an instant takes more sacrifices in your build, healing debuffs, DoTs, HoTs all become more useful, as would sustain skills if sustain is harder.

Cathexis

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Shields depending on health makes not a lot of sense to me from a utility perspective.

What good is a higher sheild without the resources to use it.

No. Don't even go there.

Bite me? I'll go there if I want to?

DannyLV702

Cathexis wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Shields depending on health makes not a lot of sense to me from a utility perspective.

What good is a higher sheild without the resources to use it.

No. Don't even go there.

Bite me? I'll go there if I want to?

Fine. What I really mean is, l2p.

GreenSoup2HoT

Healing should also benefit with more health.

What's the point running 35k hp compared to 20k hp in cryodill when the guy with 35k hp only heals for 7k and the guy with 20k heals for 14k... (vigor heal's).

Lucky28

Soris wrote: »

Because allowing damage, heal and shield share the same stats causing problems. Meaning glass cannon builds becoming more tankier than actual tanks without the limits of softcaps.

Seperating them would create more viable build options and a choice to going more offensive or more defensive rather than getting all in a package.

Simpliest sollution would be adding more base health and make all shields(and maybe heals too) scale from it.

Wards Scaling of Magicka makes Logical sense. wards scaling off health makes zero sense.

At any rate. it wouldn't do anything other than make more skills worthless. I mean did it do anything for Blazing shield or Obsidian?, no it didn't. I barely ever see anyone use those skills, they prefer harness or Shuffle over their class shields and i don't think that's a very good situation nor is it something we should want repeated for other classes and their skills.

eliisra

Ashamray wrote: »

• Health can increase all regeneration: stamina, magicka and health

This is great idea, because I don't think health should increase anything related to dmg. But the more health you have the less skills you can use, so this would help a little bit with that. Regeneration also feels pretty in-line with something a health attribute could be doing or boosting.

I also see the health attribute as a defensive thing, so having it increase mitigations/resistances would be the most natural or common sense way to do. Sadly some issue with that:

1. Only gives a minor advantage in PvP if any, due to penetrations. Might not even be noticeable.
2. Could trivialize PvE tanking, where mitigations play a big part.

But maybe there's a way around?

Soris

Lucky28 wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Because allowing damage, heal and shield share the same stats causing problems. Meaning glass cannon builds becoming more tankier than actual tanks without the limits of softcaps.

Seperating them would create more viable build options and a choice to going more offensive or more defensive rather than getting all in a package.

Simpliest sollution would be adding more base health and make all shields(and maybe heals too) scale from it.

Wards Scaling of Magicka makes Logical sense. wards scaling off health makes zero sense.

At any rate. it wouldn't do anything other than make more skills worthless. I mean did it do anything for Blazing shield or Obsidian?, no it didn't. I barely ever see anyone use those skills, they prefer harness or Shuffle over their class shields and i don't think that's a very good situation nor is it something we should want repeated for other classes and their skills.

It does make sense. Shields and heals are for defence but they somehow scale off of your offensive stats. What logic in this?

Blazing and Obsidian shields are currently bad but that's only because they have double nerfed by the shield nerf and health stat nerf. Blazing shield was the king of the shields before and it was scaling off health if you don't know.

Tomato

In most games running high health regen is a must but in ESO it does not matter at all.