Argonians, seriously

Junkogen

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Can we please have a serious discussion about Argonian racial passives? And can you guys @ZOS be open to the very real possibility that you are wrong about them?

Have you ever seen them recommended for any build? Ever? I have yet to see anyone recommend Argonians for anything. Never. Ever. And still, you guys refuse to change them, refuse to acknowledge what everyone knows: Argonians really don't excel at anything. Their passives are so niche and restricted that no one wanting to get the most out of their build, not even min/maxers, just anyone wanting a decent build, would or should take them as a race. They're just meh for anything, quite easily the last racial choice for any build. ANY build. You want to tank, dps, or heal? There are much better options. In fact, there are at least 3-4 other races that would work better in each role.

Just as people gripe about Templars being broken, so too are Argonians. You guys have made other races competitive. Case in point, Orcs. You gave them a flat damage increase and now they're on the map as good choices for stamina builds. Can't say that for Argonians. You guys have refused to make them competitive, give them direction, and flat out ruined the only synergy they ever had. They used to be a good choice for Nightblade with the potion/catalyst synergy but you eliminated that for no good reason. You totally changed them and made them useless for everything. Just think if you did that to Dunmer DKs? How pissed would people be if you removed that synergy? Or Altmer sorcs? Yet, you did that to Argonian Nightblades and left us no recourse, no apology. You didn't even acknowledge the change in patch notes. You just stealth nerfed it and moved on. "Screw you guys" is the message we've been given. Still, to this day, you refuse to put Argonians on an equal playing field with every other race. You've kept them inferior for reasons you won't talk about or disclose. Why? Why keep them so restricted?

Some of us don't have time to start over and redo all our achievements and what not, and why should we have to? Why should we have to start over or, when race change comes, pay money just to be on equal footing?

I know you guys know how to make them competitive and give them direction. Give them a stat that matters. That's the meta that you've created. So make Argonians competitive within this new game design. Soft caps are no more. Max stats matter. Weapon and spell damage scales off max stats. Healing scales off max stats. Healing received? Potion passives? Swim speed?! WTF? That doesn't cut it in this current version of the game. It just doesn't.

Please stop ignoring us.

Thank you.

Waffennacht

I hope, though I can't confirm anything, that when I heard they will be rebalancing classes/races, that they'll add something to Argonians. Something to make shadowscale an actual thing, i mean lore wise shadowscales are really awesome

wayfarerx

Junkogen wrote: »

Just as people gripe about Templars being broken, so too are Argonians.

My main is an Argonian templar, the swim speed boost is actually very useful for wading through my own tears.

RAGUNAnoOne

Agreed at least give them something I mean the healing received is NOTHING compared to the passives others have. Potion drinking up to 10% 5 in PvP seriously? SWIMMING when does that help w/o underwater combat or even a way to swim in cyrodiil? Poison and disease other than player werewolves when do you ever see disease damage that isn't telegraphed by a "stupid circle" every poison I have seen but 2 attacks in PvE have a stupid circle.

Change quick to mend to blessings of the hist the same thing but add increased healing done as well

Nuke the potion stuff if that is all you are going to do with it and add stamina and magicka regen.

Add something to the argonian resistance or boost the health.

Waffennacht

Lore wise, they should have an unprecedented health regeneration

They should have stealth perks.

In this game swimming sucks, so just remove swimming perk.

Strong immunity to poison, but meh, maybe some damage prevention?

I would personally try to make Argonians a more tough class, like a version of Khajit, instead of damage could be more defensive in nature

americansteel

shadowscales. shouldnt by lore argo be the most op NBs?

RAGUNAnoOne

Waffennacht wrote: »

Lore wise, they should have an unprecedented health regeneration

They should have stealth perks.

In this game swimming sucks, so just remove swimming perk.

Strong immunity to poison, but meh, maybe some damage prevention?

I would personally try to make Argonians a more tough class, like a version of Khajit, instead of damage could be more defensive in nature

Lore wise the stealth thing is more male and the females are better mages than anything so they should have better stamina and magicka perks they are also good at alteration restoration and mysticism all healing-draining magic hence adding healing done

Health regen is a crap atribute, why do vamps not care if they are at stage 4 unless they are RPers because you can heal health easily.

Waffennacht

americansteel wrote: »

shadowscales. shouldnt by lore argo be the most op NBs?

Yes, but I was purposely tryin to avoid that... NBs have so much hate atm, that any suggestions that could potentially make them stronger will pi... not go over well.

Junkogen

Waffennacht wrote: »

Lore wise, they should have an unprecedented health regeneration

They should have stealth perks.

In this game swimming sucks, so just remove swimming perk.

Strong immunity to poison, but meh, maybe some damage prevention?

I would personally try to make Argonians a more tough class, like a version of Khajit, instead of damage could be more defensive in nature

"Lore wise" can be interpreted in so many different ways. Look at some of the passives that races have in this game compared to previous games. In previous games, Khajiit had night vision. Imperials had charming ability, and Bosmer could control animals. None of those appear in this game. So why should Argonians be restricted? Why can't they be given the same leeway as other races to make them work better for this game, this MMO? Instead of focusing on health regen, why not give them the best overall passive stat regeneration for health, stamina, and magicka? How about give them abilities that increase their damage? People make excuses for Khajiit having a crit passive because they had an unarmed combat bonus in Skyrim. Well, so did Argonians. So why not give them a damage increase? Bosmer and Khajiit both got passives making them better thieves and assassins. Well, Argonians are supposed to be just as sneaky, experts in guerilla warfare. How about focusing on those aspects of Argonians which would make them much more competitive in this game? I cannot stress this enough. They need to be competitive within this soft-cap free design with max stats partially determining spell and weapon strength.

The thing is, the lore is out there to make Argonians really awesome. Heck, Shadowscales are in this game. They play prominently in the Shadowfen area storyline. So why not make them a playable thing? It's pretty dumb to have them showcased so prominently like that in the game and then make the race incompatible with that playstyle. It's just a tease, like a mirage of an oasis in a desert, a hunger that ZOS won't allow us to satisfy. Do I also need to point out that one of the poison descriptions for the bow skills morph is Shadowscale poison and the other is Bandari? So why the heck are Argonians so un-Shadowscale-like in this game?! It just doesn't make any sense. It really is very poor design decision-making to build all that up and not deliver.

Junkogen

Waffennacht wrote: »

I hope, though I can't confirm anything, that when I heard they will be rebalancing classes/races, that they'll add something to Argonians. Something to make shadowscale an actual thing, i mean lore wise shadowscales are really awesome

When is this rebalancing supposed to occur?

Cathexis

I always thought it'd be cool of they could stealth while swimming.

Waffennacht

Junkogen wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I hope, though I can't confirm anything, that when I heard they will be rebalancing classes/races, that they'll add something to Argonians. Something to make shadowscale an actual thing, i mean lore wise shadowscales are really awesome

When is this rebalancing supposed to occur?

Honestly I heard 3ish quarters

Kutsuu

There are a few Argonian Magicka NBs out there that rolled that race specifically for the healing bonus and do very well in PVP. You just have to play to the strengths of the race.

Now the fact that Argonian's specialty is healing is something debatably too specific for the whole race... Just makes them too niche.

Junkogen

Waffennacht wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I hope, though I can't confirm anything, that when I heard they will be rebalancing classes/races, that they'll add something to Argonians. Something to make shadowscale an actual thing, i mean lore wise shadowscales are really awesome

When is this rebalancing supposed to occur?

Honestly I heard 3ish quarters

3 quarters from when? Do you have an approximate time of year?

Junkogen

Kutsuu wrote: »

There are a few Argonian Magicka NBs out there that rolled that race specifically for the healing bonus and do very well in PVP. You just have to play to the strengths of the race.

Now the fact that Argonian's specialty is healing is something debatably too specific for the whole race... Just makes them too niche.

It does restrict them. It doesn't allow for the versatility that races with stat increases have.

I wonder how much better the healing received passive is than a flat 10% increase to magicka which makes spells stronger and thus increases healing done and received.

zornyan

I expect the race balance to be around the same time as the class rebalance, so should be in the thieves guild dlc in february.

Also aragonian NB sap tank is next on me list, seems like a very potent build.

dodgehopper_ESO

Waffennacht wrote: »

Lore wise, they should have an unprecedented health regeneration

They should have stealth perks.

In this game swimming sucks, so just remove swimming perk.

Strong immunity to poison, but meh, maybe some damage prevention?

I would personally try to make Argonians a more tough class, like a version of Khajit, instead of damage could be more defensive in nature

I totally agree with you @Waffennacht. All except for the swimming perk, I think they should keep that purely because of the style. Almost every race has 'fluff' which doesn't help it that much. Red diamond is more or less fluff. Cold Resistance on a nord is fluff. The problem with Argonian is that its all fluff and no substance. Despite being known as the race with the best regeneration, Orcs, Nords, and KHajiit get that distinction. Healing received is great but it is severely bound by the nerf to heals in cyrodiil for instance. The percentages on disease/poison resistance are negligible in the grand scheme of things. Thematically they should have stealthy as well so I am in agreement with you here, even if they do not get the bonus damage. I'd call it Guerrilla fighter and make it more about poison/disease resist and give the perception radius reduction that stealthy has.

On the matter of the Nighblade-Argonian potion synergy, my lizardman was built on this as well, so I understand very clearly this complaint.

dodgehopper_ESO

Junkogen wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Lore wise, they should have an unprecedented health regeneration

They should have stealth perks.

In this game swimming sucks, so just remove swimming perk.

Strong immunity to poison, but meh, maybe some damage prevention?

I would personally try to make Argonians a more tough class, like a version of Khajit, instead of damage could be more defensive in nature

"Lore wise" can be interpreted in so many different ways. Look at some of the passives that races have in this game compared to previous games. In previous games, Khajiit had night vision. Imperials had charming ability, and Bosmer could control animals. None of those appear in this game. So why should Argonians be restricted? Why can't they be given the same leeway as other races to make them work better for this game, this MMO? Instead of focusing on health regen, why not give them the best overall passive stat regeneration for health, stamina, and magicka? How about give them abilities that increase their damage? People make excuses for Khajiit having a crit passive because they had an unarmed combat bonus in Skyrim. Well, so did Argonians. So why not give them a damage increase? Bosmer and Khajiit both got passives making them better thieves and assassins. Well, Argonians are supposed to be just as sneaky, experts in guerilla warfare. How about focusing on those aspects of Argonians which would make them much more competitive in this game? I cannot stress this enough. They need to be competitive within this soft-cap free design with max stats partially determining spell and weapon strength.

The thing is, the lore is out there to make Argonians really awesome. Heck, Shadowscales are in this game. They play prominently in the Shadowfen area storyline. So why not make them a playable thing? It's pretty dumb to have them showcased so prominently like that in the game and then make the race incompatible with that playstyle. It's just a tease, like a mirage of an oasis in a desert, a hunger that ZOS won't allow us to satisfy. Do I also need to point out that one of the poison descriptions for the bow skills morph is Shadowscale poison and the other is Bandari? So why the heck are Argonians so un-Shadowscale-like in this game?! It just doesn't make any sense. It really is very poor design decision-making to build all that up and not deliver.

I like what you are saying although I'd actually prefer they completely decoupled damage from all attributes. Damage should be derived from the gear you wear, and attributes should be the pools that they draw from. I really think this would help them balance the game MUCH MORE easily.

dodgehopper_ESO

Junkogen wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

There are a few Argonian Magicka NBs out there that rolled that race specifically for the healing bonus and do very well in PVP. You just have to play to the strengths of the race.

Now the fact that Argonian's specialty is healing is something debatably too specific for the whole race... Just makes them too niche.

It does restrict them. It doesn't allow for the versatility that races with stat increases have.

I wonder how much better the healing received passive is than a flat 10% increase to magicka which makes spells stronger and thus increases healing done and received.

I'm inclined to agree. Because the healing received is so niche it really should be significantly higher than it is, even before you factor in things like Cyrodiil. I can live with the lower magicka if the +healing received were truly significant. Getting 9% more healing received is significantly weaker than 10% to magicka though. I think everyone can intuitively figure that one out.
I feel sorry for the Argonian DK's who wanted to take advantage of GDB+Healing received. The other argonians fall prey to the same issue. Don't get me wrong I make it work with my Argonian NB but I do agree with others here that the race could use more reliable boosts, or the #'s themselves should be more meaningful. If something is harder to make occur, it should be more significant. Argonians as designed are really best served as Tanks or Healers. The irony here is that I think Nords probably make better tanks and healers, on face value alone. Max health + 9%, Cold Resist, 30% health regen bonus and 6% damage reduction vs. Max Health 6%, Healing received 9% (which is nerfed by Cyrodiil), and meager potion recovery to attributes. Both races are Tanks at their basic level, which is not favorable in the current design of the game to begin with. I believe they should look at that problem though before completely revamping everything about Nord and Argonian.

Health needs to carry more weight with respect to Magicka/Stamina. This directly hurts the balance of races like Imperial, Nord, Argonian, and Orc. Argonian is definitely at the bottom of this totem pole and doesn't have the advantage of other attributes balancing things out (+stam on Orc and Imp). Nord to a lesser degree deals with this problem as well but I believe its attributes are far more reliable than the Argonian.

Compare this with races like Altmer or Dunmer who not only have 10%/9% more magicka but a bonus to elemental damage to stack on top of that. Damage really shouldn't be the most important thing, otherwise the numbers of more 'resistant' races really need a major buffing. At any regard I think its pretty clear the Argonian needs help, but it is definitely better than it use to be. I'm a bigger proponent of Massive Regeneration & Stealth for the race personally. If the regeneration numbers are strong enough it should definitely operate as an advantage in combat, and promote a hit and run (guerrilla) playstyle.

mr_wazzabi

Argonians should get the same stealthy passives as bosmer and khajit. Lizards are very sneaky in the wild.

MrGrimey

They should just nerf all the other racials... Racial passives shouldn't be the determining factor for the class I play

Junkogen

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

There are a few Argonian Magicka NBs out there that rolled that race specifically for the healing bonus and do very well in PVP. You just have to play to the strengths of the race.

Now the fact that Argonian's specialty is healing is something debatably too specific for the whole race... Just makes them too niche.

It does restrict them. It doesn't allow for the versatility that races with stat increases have.

I wonder how much better the healing received passive is than a flat 10% increase to magicka which makes spells stronger and thus increases healing done and received.

I'm inclined to agree. Because the healing received is so niche it really should be significantly higher than it is, even before you factor in things like Cyrodiil. I can live with the lower magicka if the +healing received were truly significant. Getting 9% more healing received is significantly weaker than 10% to magicka though. I think everyone can intuitively figure that one out.
I feel sorry for the Argonian DK's who wanted to take advantage of GDB+Healing received. The other argonians fall prey to the same issue. Don't get me wrong I make it work with my Argonian NB but I do agree with others here that the race could use more reliable boosts, or the #'s themselves should be more meaningful. If something is harder to make occur, it should be more significant. Argonians as designed are really best served as Tanks or Healers. The irony here is that I think Nords probably make better tanks and healers, on face value alone. Max health + 9%, Cold Resist, 30% health regen bonus and 6% damage reduction vs. Max Health 6%, Healing received 9% (which is nerfed by Cyrodiil), and meager potion recovery to attributes. Both races are Tanks at their basic level, which is not favorable in the current design of the game to begin with. I believe they should look at that problem though before completely revamping everything about Nord and Argonian.

Health needs to carry more weight with respect to Magicka/Stamina. This directly hurts the balance of races like Imperial, Nord, Argonian, and Orc. Argonian is definitely at the bottom of this totem pole and doesn't have the advantage of other attributes balancing things out (+stam on Orc and Imp). Nord to a lesser degree deals with this problem as well but I believe its attributes are far more reliable than the Argonian.

Compare this with races like Altmer or Dunmer who not only have 10%/9% more magicka but a bonus to elemental damage to stack on top of that. Damage really shouldn't be the most important thing, otherwise the numbers of more 'resistant' races really need a major buffing. At any regard I think its pretty clear the Argonian needs help, but it is definitely better than it use to be. I'm a bigger proponent of Massive Regeneration & Stealth for the race personally. If the regeneration numbers are strong enough it should definitely operate as an advantage in combat, and promote a hit and run (guerrilla) playstyle.

Argonians used to have decent damage ouput with old synergy....here's the thing, they went from a versatile race that could be good at any role under the soft caps to now a tank race? I and many others didn't take Argonians to be a tank. We wanted a decent NB in the Ebonheart Pact. I feel like I was sold a bill of goods with this race and I pay for it every time I play because I don't want to start over.

I don't understand why they don't just give them 6% max magicka. Then they would be a magicka equivalent to an Orc. They would get some spell strength increase, more resources, and would be better suited to all roles magicka-based.

Xvorg

My dear magicka NB. Yesterday I tried, really tried light armor to make him stronger, but I realized he needs heavy because it is the only way to survive. Light armor in a lizard is like a paper cup for water.

So, magicka NB ins an argonian is waaaaaay weaker that a magicka NB in a breton. And we are talking about the shadowscale's race.

Now, something I remember when I started playing was the amphibious passive. It said something like " improves your potion effectiveness" or something like that. What I read the fist time was "improves your POISON effectiveness..."

It makes total sense, lizards live in a swarm, they are able to resist poison but to kill each other they need stronger poisons.

That sole change could improve argonians, making them strong archers and it could give utility to some sets that are pretty much ignored.

Xvorg

double post

Zinaroth

As a Nord I totally feel your pain.

RAGUNAnoOne

Xvorg wrote: »

My dear magicka NB. Yesterday I tried, really tried light armor to make him stronger, but I realized he needs heavy because it is the only way to survive. Light armor in a lizard is like a paper cup for water.

So, magicka NB ins an argonian is waaaaaay weaker that a magicka NB in a breton. And we are talking about the shadowscale's race.

Now, something I remember when I started playing was the amphibious passive. It said something like " improves your potion effectiveness" or something like that. What I read the fist time was "improves your POISON effectiveness..."

It makes total sense, lizards live in a swarm, they are able to resist poison but to kill each other they need stronger poisons.

That sole change could improve argonians, making them strong archers and it could give utility to some sets that are pretty much ignored.

The poison would only work for bow users at least the dark elf passive synergyzes with 2 classes and one full weapon line. Poison will only work on up to 3 moves ever regardless of class. However if they add a way to use player made poisons on enemies then it may be useful.

Jar_Ek

Agree Argonian passives are poor, esp. the potion passive which is horrible for numerous reasons which I have stated before. The best passive we have is the healing received one which only supports tanks really well, although it does help in general... However compared to a max stat it is relatively weak as it is entirely defensive - if fact all the Argonian passives are which seems at best underwhelming and at worst incomprehensible.

Alucardo

Athletics was a big thing for Argonians. I don't know where all this restoration stuff came from. ESO did get it right with poison and disease immunity however.
I'd change the Amphibious passive to Athletic, giving them increased speed, reduced cost in sprinting and a passive MINOR dodge chance. Upon successfully dodging an attack they are awarded with 3-5% stamina and magicka.
Maybe too OP, but it's something to work on.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

I highly doubt ZOS will completely scrap the potion passive. They seem adamant about leaving it tied to potion use (along with NB's Catalyst passive, which is also potion-based) . Because of this, we would probably have better luck convincing ZOS to buff it or tack on another buff to the passive (e.g. reduce potion cooldown timer).

Additionally, I would also caution against advocating for stealth-based passives. While lore friendly, they would in fact be even less useful than the current potion stat return passive. To know the reasons why, simply go back and read whay Khajit and Bosmer players have been saying for a long time (though the topic isn't brought up as much now as it was before their racials were boosted in other ways). The reasons for my argument are as follows:

First, these stealth-based passive have virtually no effect on endgame PvE DPS viability. They can be useful for soloing one mob at a time where you can re-stealth between fights (but how difficult is fighting one mob really?), but offer nothing when fighting multiple mobs (which is more common than fighting single mobs), or during prolonged boss fights.

Second, stealth-based passives have only limited usefulness in PvP. They are good for a strong opener from stealth (ie ganking), but that's it. Again, in larger and longer fights where you cannot re-stealth, this passive isn't helping anything. Moreover, the apparently permanently broken "stuck in combat bug" that prevents stealth will many times also prevent this passive from even being used for its strong point (ganking).

Third, the limited practical/situational usefulness of 'from stealth' racials described above makes the 45-second potion cooldown (the limiting factor in the potion stat return passive) much more flexible and actually useful across all types of playstyles and encounters.

So, if you want to buff Argonians' combat abilities, "from stealth"-based passives are, imho, not the way to do it. Or, at least if they do pursue that route, they should proc from Cloak and invis pots, since this would make them more useful across more situations, and potentially give back an Argonian-NB synergy that was behind many older players' choice in rolling Argonian in the first place (for those that don't know, Argonians and NBs used to share an Increase Potion Effectiveness passive, which combined made potion effects 45% stronger; combined with a potion cooldown that could be brought down to 15 seconds, this made Argonian NBs a challenging niche, yet powerful build). If this sounds like it would make Argonian NBs overpowered, I would direct you to Dunmer's boost to fire damage and their synergy with DKs; it's a form of class-race synergy more than a distinct disadvantage for other classes. From stealth passives would also work better if they are based on a longer timer or for the entire duration you are in combat after coming out of stealth, rather than just an initial opening attack; Though, this might be OP in some PvE boss fights where you are in combat for many minutes straight, but would be more balanced in PvP where you can enter into and out of combat many times, forcing you to try and re-stealth if you want to keep the buff up.



For those interested (ahem, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert ), here are just some of the threads since about last January about the problems with Argonians' racials and many potential solutions (in rough chronological order from newest to oldest):

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/236324/argonian-racial-passive-to-make-them-useful

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/231439/could-argonians-be-the-third-magicka-race/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2488793/

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/221703/argonian-passives-idea/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/210144/argonian-racial-passives-a-very-desperate-plea/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/204701/zos-argonians-remain-least-competitive-race-consolidated-arguments-and-suggestions/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202773/argonian-feedback-suggestions/

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201966/zos-your-racial-balancing-is-bad-and-you-should-feel-bad-too

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/204295/new-racial-passive-system-proposal-featuring-argonians-and-nords-as-examples

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/194155/argonians

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/203868/pts-racial-passive-changes

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/111534/racials-balancing

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162869/bug-nb-catalyst-passive

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/65730/any-news-on-argonians-racial-skill-buffs

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162238/i-cant-take-it-argonian-is-soooo-bad-compared-to-other-races

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151415/1-6-changes-to-potions-and-related-passives-abilities-issues-and-possible-solutions

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154490/change-to-argonians-best-passive-still-not-in-the-notes

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154004/zenimax-please-reconsider-argonian-racial-passives

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154048/how-come-racials-werent-given-a-pass-in-1-6-zos

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153268/my-case-for-race-change-option-in-1-6

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/152091/racial-disparity-with-full-list

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150659/lets-talk-about-argonians-race-change-please

Hammy01

wayfarerx wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Just as people gripe about Templars being broken, so too are Argonians.

My main is an Argonian templar, the swim speed boost is actually very useful for wading through my own tears.

Lolllll... as someone else whose main is an Argonian Templar, I cannot agree any more!!!

Cathexis

Title of thread is the slogan for my new leather boots business.


Uggnonians

Argonians, Seriously.