Health pool is now only dead meat. What should scale from it?

hrothbern

Is it not strange that a really big Giant is not stronger, but only more dead meat to slice apart for the kill?

Would that giant of a guy also not hit much harder?

Making the base Spell and Weapon Damage a level based value + approx 2% of your Health pool would reflect the strenght of a biggg Health. (so not only by level as done now. The level share to be for a Vet 16 as 15*(50+16) = 990).

at Vet 16:
A Damage Dealer with 15k Health (outside of Cyrodiil) gets 990 + 300 = 1290 as base Spell & Weapon Damage. A "stronger" tanky character with 25k Health gets 990 + 500 = 1440.

And to top the suggestion off: Would making Health Regeneration a 2% of that pool, not reflect better whether a character is "strong"?

I think something in this direction would make Health based and more Hybrid characters more valuable...
without heavy, for me unnatural cures to remedy excessive one stat builds, like Soft Caps, removing the now existing scaling from Magicka/Stamina.

Without nerfing something else...

just looking for a way to get hybrid builds viable

KeplerMG

They should make ALL shields scale off of health. That would stop the current glass cannon shield spamming win button meta.

GreenSoup2HoT

KeplerMG wrote: »

They should make ALL shields scale off of health. That would stop the current glass cannon shield spamming win button meta.

agree.

however you would have to make all weapon damage builds that have abilities that buff weapon damage scale off base weapon damage, this way you dont have insane stamina classes overpowering anything that is effected by op's change.

hrothbern

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KeplerMG wrote: »

They should make ALL shields scale off of health. That would stop the current glass cannon shield spamming win button meta.

that would be a full nerf to Sorcerers using Damage Shields.

Why nerf such builds?
They are part of the great diversity we have in this game !
If you do not counter them rightly, they are strong. So what? Counter them.

DannyLV702

KeplerMG wrote: »

They should make ALL shields scale off of health. That would stop the current glass cannon shield spamming win button meta.

How much damage are those shield spams hitting your for?

hrothbern

DannyLV702 wrote: »

KeplerMG wrote: »

They should make ALL shields scale off of health. That would stop the current glass cannon shield spamming win button meta.

How much damage are those shield spams hitting your for?

smile :-)

The only Shield that can hit you with Damage is Sun Shield, a Health Shield....

KeplerMG

hrothbern wrote: »

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KeplerMG wrote: »

They should make ALL shields scale off of health. That would stop the current glass cannon shield spamming win button meta.

that would be a full nerf to Sorcerers using Damage Shields.

It would just stop them for dumping all their points into magicka, ignoring health, yet still maintaining the highest defenses in the game. It would hurt magicka night blades too, and bring both classes down off their pedestal and back down to even ground with templar and dragon knight.

Jura23

I would say make skills scale from mag/stam+health instead of just mag/stam.

Rune_Relic

hrothbern wrote: »

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KeplerMG wrote: »

They should make ALL shields scale off of health. That would stop the current glass cannon shield spamming win button meta.

that would be a full nerf to Sorcerers using Damage Shields.

Why nerf such builds?
They are part of the great diversity we have in this game !
If you do not counter them rightly, they are strong. So what? Counter them.

Because you are using 1 resource for DPS and Tanking,
So you can just put all your point in that 1 resource.

Its kind of like saying....

DPS + Heal = Resource 1 = Class 1 ????
DPS + Tank = Resource 2 = Class 2
Heal + Tank = Resource 3 = Class 3 ????
Class 4 ????

Its just a complete mess class balance wise with regard resource management.

Rune_Relic

People want to use weapon damage and spell damage for DPS.
That requires 1 resource for each to keep them separate.

People want to heal and mitigate damage.
These need to be separate too.
Only health left ??? EEEK!

People with the most health are those that can take the damage.
So it seems logical that....
Health = Tank

The leaves healing with no resource.
There is no option to add a 4th resource no matter how much we argued.
So we have to cobble something together out of the other 3.
Thankfully as
more stamina = more weapon damage
more magicka = more spell damage
more health = more mitigation/shield
Less of everything can = healing.

Hence health/stamina/magicka parity = Healing resource.

This means ALL classes can be healer/tank/mag DPS/Stam DPS with no issues whatsoever.
All they have to do is alter their attribute and resource pool.

Tank = Not DPS & Not Healer
DPS = Not tank & Not Healer
Healer = Not Tank & Not DPS (Hyrbid).

{EDIT it can of course be extended to
...stamina/magicka= battle mage hybrid
...stamina/health=Physical Tank hybrid
...magicka/health = Magical tank hybrid}

eliisra

Can this please not turn into a nerf sorc thread? The actual topic, making health a more useful attribute, feels more relevant (there's like 1000 nerf sorc threads).

Let's start with the fact that 9/10 builds have 0 points in health and 62 in stamina or magicka. That gives you a pretty good indication of how valuable the health attribute is in ESO at the moment.

This isn't a sorc thing, running 0 health is the main build for every class out there. Everyone ignores health, besides hardcore PvE tanks.

You could make all skills scale of your highest attribute, like many suggest, but would advance the problem with one-sided builds even further. Shouldn't there be more to builds in ESO than jamming everything into one attribute?

Make points in health somewhat useful instead, have it add more than just a slightly bigger health pool. Than skills scaling of health will be in better shape automatically, because putting points into health wont hardcore nerf your precious character.

hrothbern

Jura23 wrote: »

I would say make skills scale from mag/stam+health instead of just mag/stam.

regarding the size of Damage Shields, that makes sense to me

(with Health at a smaller weight than mag/stam and all values normalised to get for high mag/stam builds approx the same value)

and why not apply a similar principle for the rest?

hrothbern

eliisra wrote: »

Can this please not turn into a nerf sorc thread? The actual topic, making health a more useful attribute, feels more relevant (there's like 1000 nerf sorc threads).

Let's start with the fact that 9/10 builds have 0 points in health and 62 in stamina or magicka. That gives you a pretty good indication of how valuable the health attribute is in ESO at the moment.

This isn't a sorc thing, running 0 health is the main build for every class out there. Everyone ignores health, besides hardcore PvE tanks.

You could make all skills scale of your highest attribute, like many suggest, but would advance the problem with one-sided builds even further. Shouldn't there be more to builds in ESO than jamming everything into one attribute?

Make points in health somewhat useful instead, have it add more than just a slightly bigger health pool. Than skills scaling of health will be in better shape automatically, because putting points into health wont hardcore nerf your precious character.

THIS !

Thread is there to discuss ways to make the Health pool more valuable. Not just the bare minimum to prevent 1,2,3 shotted. Thread is about about buffing Health value, certainly not about nerfing something else.

And yes, almost everybody, except tanks, are putting all their Attribute points in one pool, having a big synergy with LA or MA.
Even HA builds are tempted to put many if not all Attribute points in one mag/stam pool to increase Self heal or DPS.

Almost nobody uses the Mundus Stone "The Lord" for 1280 increase Health pool. The Mundus Stones The Mage or The Tower for 1280 increase mag/stam are much more popular.

Septimus_Magna

Health is only a buffer to avoid one-shots, if you're able to heal up before getting killed you have enough health.

Health is not a measure of physical or magical power (unlike stam/weapon dmg and mag/spell dmg).

It could become more viable if the health pool would increase overall regen, this would make resources sustain easier for tanky builds with a big health pool, not harder like it is currently. Other than that I dont think anything should scale with health.

RAGUNAnoOne

hrothbern wrote: »

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KeplerMG wrote: »

They should make ALL shields scale off of health. That would stop the current glass cannon shield spamming win button meta.

that would be a full nerf to Sorcerers using Damage Shields.

Why nerf such builds?
They are part of the great diversity we have in this game !
If you do not counter them rightly, they are strong. So what? Counter them.

Wait there is diversity???

Xvorg

KeplerMG wrote: »

They should make ALL shields scale off of health. That would stop the current glass cannon shield spamming win button meta.

Time to make an argonian DK/Sorc

Brrrofski

KeplerMG wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

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KeplerMG wrote: »

They should make ALL shields scale off of health. That would stop the current glass cannon shield spamming win button meta.

that would be a full nerf to Sorcerers using Damage Shields.

It would just stop them for dumping all their points into magicka, ignoring health, yet still maintaining the highest defenses in the game. It would hurt magicka night blades too, and bring both classes down off their pedestal and back down to even ground with templar and dragon knight.

I don't use any shields on my magica nightblade so not sure how it would make a difference.

Sorc shield have been halfed. If you're not a magica Dk or magica temp (got no chance, I know from experience), then you should have no problem killing sorcs.

I kill them fine on my stam Dk, magica NB and stam Nb which is only vr4.

CC. Simple as. It's not hard.

Arciris

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Health is only a buffer to avoid one-shots, if you're able to heal up before getting killed you have enough health.

Health is not a measure of physical or magical power (unlike stam/weapon dmg and mag/spell dmg).

It could become more viable if the health pool would increase overall regen, this would make resources sustain easier for tanky builds with a big health pool, not harder like it is currently. Other than that I dont think anything should scale with health.

^^ This
Great point

Waffennacht

They should rebuff the health passives, especially seeing as the nerf to health happened before the PvP reduction.

They were on the right path with health attributes more resource than magicka/stamina. They should keep this up, makin each attribute put into health give 50 to 75% more to health than an attribute put into magicka or stamina.

My logic for that is: both magicka and stamina give more than their respective resource pool. For each 10.1 stam/mag, it acts as if you added a spell or weapon damage. Health does not have a similar effect (if it was, it should instead give a damage reduction from incoming attacks, something like for each 10.1 health, reduce opponent's damage by 1)

Either way, health will now give two effects (just like the other resources) instead of just one, and a tempting one at that.

The idea isn't that we should so hinder the other resources to force players to diversify, but rather make the options better so that choosing health can be just as beneficial as choosing a resource pool.

katamuro11b16_ESO

Probably a noob question but does health boost anything but health regen? I know magicka boosts magicka regen and some sorc abilities and I know stamina boosts stamina regen and weapon damage, so health anything else?

hrothbern

katamuro11b16_ESO wrote: »

Probably a noob question but does health boost anything but health regen? I know magicka boosts magicka regen and some sorc abilities and I know stamina boosts stamina regen and weapon damage, so health anything else?

From someone who is still learning the game

Health regeneration like Magicka and Stamina Regeneration do NOT depend on the Health, Magicka or Stamina pool, but are fixed values, depending on your level and what fixed values you add from Armor Sets & Mundus Stones. There are also percentual buffs on this amount by abilities, skill line passives and the CP Tree.

but the Magicka pool and the Stamina pool amount do increase the Damage output, or Heal or several much used Damage Shields.

There is very little that scales from the Health pool. Some Damage Shields, and Invigorating Bash in the CP Tree.

katamuro11b16_ESO

It used to increase the regen I think, before they increased all the stats I think. I used to play the game a year ago and decided to get back to it just recently.

hrothbern

katamuro11b16_ESO wrote: »

It used to increase the regen I think, before they increased all the stats I think. I used to play the game a year ago and decided to get back to it just recently.

It would anyhow be a good thing if the Health pool would increase regenerations. Characters needing a lot of Health, Tanks, are short in resources.

katamuro11b16_ESO

I know I am playing a nord templar tank(made it right after launch) after all seemed like a perfect idea, lots of health and a ability to heal yourself.

MrGigglypants

It's like people don't realize the point of pvp is to kill each other. You expect tanks and healers to be successful at doing such but when in PvE they are only there to prevent deaths. In general pvp is actually very balanced right now class wise. healing ward being the only ability that can be argued as opposed when combined with hardened. Stam dk = best duelist nightblades=best ganks Sorcs = best 1v1 templars= best utility character

Ashamray

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

It could become more viable if the health pool would increase overall regen, this would make resources sustain easier for tanky builds with a big health pool, not harder like it is currently. Other than that I dont think anything should scale with health.

Interesting idea.

dodgehopper_ESO

The more points you put into Health, the weaker your ultimates are as well. Its a major opportunity cost between health and mag/stam. Hybrid builds are also extremely underperforming and there is no reason to build that way currently. I've definitely been pushing for them to rethink a lot of the issues with Health and tanking in general in the game. There is a reason I lost interest in playing a tank.

NBrookus

I definitely don't think health should increase damage; it's a legitimate trade-off when you are allocating stats.

Improving regeneration seems like an interesting idea to toy with. It won't make tanky types hit harder, but will make them more tanky; done right it will not be OP in PvP versus a burst/high damage build, but will bring tanks back into dungeons.

TheDarkShadow

How about put more points in health also increase all regen? ZoS can increase the cost of skills and make resource management harder so people are forced to spend more points into health to not run out of magicka/stam.

Xvorg

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

How about put more points in health also increase all regen? ZoS can increase the cost of skills and make resource management harder so people are forced to spend more points into health to not run out of magicka/stam.

mag NBs will be unkillable then:

All points to health + willows + leeching strikes, + resto staff + tenacity (Cp the lover) + relentlesss focus (for stam) + degeneration + harness magicka + sap esence + heavy armor...

I like it!

hrothbern

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Xvorg wrote: »

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

How about put more points in health also increase all regen? ZoS can increase the cost of skills and make resource management harder so people are forced to spend more points into health to not run out of magicka/stam.

mag NBs will be unkillable then:

All points to health + willows + leeching strikes, + resto staff + tenacity (Cp the lover) + relentlesss focus (for stam) + degeneration + harness magicka + sap esence + heavy armor...

I like it!

Would an additional 100/150 Regeneration or so for a Healthy character with 25-30k in Health make him unkillable???

haha

go troll somewhere else