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A suggested change to Keep and Resources

RinaldoGandolphi
RinaldoGandolphi
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Hi,

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

I would like to make a suggestion that I think would help tremendously with the issues everyone is trying to address in PVP. The basis of this being keeps and resources. Right now resources are not important enough, and keeps are too easy to take. I would like you guys to consider this:

1. The 2 gate keeps/Relic keeps of a faction should require all 3 resources to be taken by the enemy before the flags inside the keep can be flipped.
2. All other keeps require 2 out of 3 resources to be captured in order to be able to flip the flags in the keep.

This does a few things:

1. It will require zergs to leave people behind at these resources and ensure someone doesn;t flip the resources back while they are inside the keep fighting over the inner, as if they lose control of the required resources before taking the keep, they will have to go back and retake it before the flags hence the keep can flip.

2. It helps spread people out and adds more map tactics to PVP..it also naturally spreads out the fighting as there will be folks that will guard the resources outside the keep as well as people fighting inside and folks wanting to try and flip those resources, it overall adds more spread out fighting across the entire keep fight. It also allows delaying and buying time in defenses as well.

Yes i know people will try and say folks could troll take resources, and they should. thats the point! if you have all 70 people inside the keep and no one guarding the resource and a small group flips a resource flag outside preventing you from flipping the keep, that has now extended the fight over the keep and you have been outsmarted.

How many do you send outside to take back the resource?
How many enemies are outside at the resource?
If you leave, the enemy could repair the walls while your trying to get the resource back to flip
If you all stay inside you will be stuck fighting respawning NPC's

I like this idea...if forces us to think more objectively about what to do instead of just ramming everyone into one place...Resources will become prime spots for 5-7 man skirmishes fighting over control while the larger forces are fighting inside...it allows smaller groups to have a real chance of influencing outcomes without being forced into large groups...

imagine the excitement...the enemy has wiped most of your factions teammates inside the keep and just as they are about to flip, you take the resource denying them the capture, now your teammates have regrouped and another push occurs.

this could literally give us keep battles that last for HOURS and folks are more spread out over the 3 min sieges we have now....its hard to keep 70 people in one place when there are 3 resources they need to fight over and a keep and outside of relic keeps you need to keep 2 of them to flip the flags...this spreads people out by design around the keep....i think its a good idea and it makes resources actually matter. it also gives the small scale crowd the non-zerg skirmishes they are after...as large groups will still be required to take keep inners so both styles are still 100% viable.

Anything that adds strategy and depth to map and objectives i think is a good thing.

just my 2 cents, and thank you for taking the time to read.
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Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)

"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak

  • Etaniel
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    Excellent idea, I really like it.
    Maybe make it 3 ressources for gate keeps, 2 ressources for arrius/glade/faregyl and 1 ressource for emp keeps? The closer you get to the enemy base, the harder it gets?

    This would defnitely help people spread out and add a lot more depth to warfare and group coordinations. Would make things a lot more interesting.
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  • BigTone
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    Etaniel wrote: »
    Excellent idea, I really like it.
    Maybe make it 3 ressources for gate keeps, 2 ressources for arrius/glade/faregyl and 1 ressource for emp keeps? The closer you get to the enemy base, the harder it gets?

    This would defnitely help people spread out and add a lot more depth to warfare and group coordinations. Would make things a lot more interesting.

    I would say that your own relic keeps would not require any resources, dragonclaw/brindle/drakelow and your two own emp keeps would require one, enemy emp keeps would require two, and enemy relic keeps require all three.

    @RinaldoGandolphi overall I really like this idea. Gives smaller groups some impact and forces the almighty zerg blob to dare I say send some players out on their own to capture resources.

    Also, please do something about the disparity between the amount of time it takes a zerg to flip a resource flag and a solo player. Thanks :)
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  • _Chaos
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    BigTone wrote: »
    Etaniel wrote: »
    Excellent idea, I really like it.
    Maybe make it 3 ressources for gate keeps, 2 ressources for arrius/glade/faregyl and 1 ressource for emp keeps? The closer you get to the enemy base, the harder it gets?

    This would defnitely help people spread out and add a lot more depth to warfare and group coordinations. Would make things a lot more interesting.

    I would say that your own relic keeps would not require any resources, dragonclaw/brindle/drakelow and your two own emp keeps would require one, enemy emp keeps would require two, and enemy relic keeps require all three.

    @RinaldoGandolphi overall I really like this idea. Gives smaller groups some impact and forces the almighty zerg blob to dare I say send some players out on their own to capture resources.

    Also, please do something about the disparity between the amount of time it takes a zerg to flip a resource flag and a solo player. Thanks :)

    /signed

    This actually sounds amazing, and simple af to code in.
    'Chaos
  • Etaniel
    Etaniel
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    BigTone wrote: »
    Etaniel wrote: »
    Excellent idea, I really like it.
    Maybe make it 3 ressources for gate keeps, 2 ressources for arrius/glade/faregyl and 1 ressource for emp keeps? The closer you get to the enemy base, the harder it gets?

    This would defnitely help people spread out and add a lot more depth to warfare and group coordinations. Would make things a lot more interesting.

    I would say that your own relic keeps would not require any resources, dragonclaw/brindle/drakelow and your two own emp keeps would require one, enemy emp keeps would require two, and enemy relic keeps require all three.

    @RinaldoGandolphi overall I really like this idea. Gives smaller groups some impact and forces the almighty zerg blob to dare I say send some players out on their own to capture resources.

    Also, please do something about the disparity between the amount of time it takes a zerg to flip a resource flag and a solo player. Thanks :)

    /signed

    This actually sounds amazing, and simple af to code in.

    Never assume it's easy to code in ^^ You never know what their code architecture is like, and judging from everything that breaks everytime they implement a simple fix.... well, you get the idea

    But overall this would be something the PvP team can work on without depending on the art team for example (not having to add flags or modifying the terrain)

    @ZOS_BrianWheeler What do you think about this idea to change requirements to claim keeps?
    Edited by Etaniel on November 19, 2015 1:14PM
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  • Psilent
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    I brought this up in TS a long time ago and it was shot down very quick.

    Reasons:
    1. Would make it very difficult for small groups to flip keeps. My response: So this would prevent daycapping/nightcapping?

    2. The only other reason to mention. Would promote larger zergs. Reasoning: Guilds like GoS, Nexus, Havoc, VE, Decibel, No Mercy, etc would just wipe the floor with the zerg groups due to skill alone. Since they would be split up holding resources while taking the keep. They would end up bringing more and more players until they could take it. Which would lead to all fights being at one place on the map and decrease server performance.

    For the record, I love the idea. Makes taking a keep a bit more strategic than 20/20 siege and zerg the flags.

    Edit: Always felt there should be a flag outside the inner of a keep and one on the roof/third floor as well.
    Edited by Psilent on November 19, 2015 1:22PM
  • Etaniel
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    Psilent wrote: »
    I brought this up in TS a long time ago and it was shot down very quick.

    Reasons:
    1. Would make it very difficult for small groups to flip keeps. My response: So this would prevent daycapping/nightcapping?

    2. The only other reason to mention. Would promote larger zergs. Reasoning: Guilds like GoS, Nexus, Havoc, VE, Decibel, No Mercy, etc would just wipe the floor with the zerg groups due to skill alone. Since they would be split up holding resources while taking the keep. They would end up bringing more and more players until they could take it. Which would lead to all fights being at one place on the map and decrease server performance.

    For the record, I love the idea. Makes taking a keep a bit more strategic than 20/20 siege and zerg the flags.

    Edit: Always felt there should be a flag outside the inner of a keep and one on the roof/third floor as well.

    Adding flags to the third floor/roof is also something I've been wanting, and could be added on top of the ressource change.

    Currently, if a guild requires more people to take a keep, it means packing even more people through that breach and onto the flags. In this scenario, it means keeping the same numbers inside, and sending the reinforcements to the ressources. So even though you end up with more people at the keep, they are overall more spread out, so I think the performance impact wouldn't be as big.

    So technically, more people, but not larger zergs.
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  • RinaldoGandolphi
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    Etaniel wrote: »
    Psilent wrote: »
    I brought this up in TS a long time ago and it was shot down very quick.

    Reasons:
    1. Would make it very difficult for small groups to flip keeps. My response: So this would prevent daycapping/nightcapping?

    2. The only other reason to mention. Would promote larger zergs. Reasoning: Guilds like GoS, Nexus, Havoc, VE, Decibel, No Mercy, etc would just wipe the floor with the zerg groups due to skill alone. Since they would be split up holding resources while taking the keep. They would end up bringing more and more players until they could take it. Which would lead to all fights being at one place on the map and decrease server performance.

    For the record, I love the idea. Makes taking a keep a bit more strategic than 20/20 siege and zerg the flags.

    Edit: Always felt there should be a flag outside the inner of a keep and one on the roof/third floor as well.

    Adding flags to the third floor/roof is also something I've been wanting, and could be added on top of the ressource change.

    Currently, if a guild requires more people to take a keep, it means packing even more people through that breach and onto the flags. In this scenario, it means keeping the same numbers inside, and sending the reinforcements to the ressources. So even though you end up with more people at the keep, they are overall more spread out, so I think the performance impact wouldn't be as big.

    So technically, more people, but not larger zergs.

    This was a big part of my reasoning for this idea. I understand, folks are going to go where the crossed swords are. I know we all have our opinions on zergsand whatnot, and I was thinking along lines of how can we promote solid PVP play while not killing large and small group gameplay?

    I think having 15 at the farm, 20 at the lumber mill, and 10 at the mine for example fighting over those spread out resources while the rest are fighting inside the keep is ultimately better for the game then having those 40-50 inside the keep with the rest of faction.

    I have always thought what goes on outside the keep (resources) should matter just as much as what goes on inside the keep (flags)

    As Bigtone wisely pointed out, the closer you get to your enemies gate/relic keeps the more resources you have to hold to flip the flags

    Enemy Relic keeps require all 3 resources captured before flags will flip and open a gate
    Enemy Home keeps(not the relic keeps) require 2 resources
    Ring keeps require 1 resource.

    funneling reinforcements to the resources instead of the keep inner is only going to make the game more playable and fun due to the fact players will be more spread out across the objectives, and the fact you can be winning the fight inside the keep and yet lose the resources outside the keep and hence lose just makes the objective game play much more important.

    All the factions are outnumbered at certain times of the day, thats a given, this change in some ways indirectly buffs the defender but not overhwhelming so....especially concerning the gate keeps, making them a bit harder and steeper requirements to take is going to help alleviate the whole gate camp morale killers we had in the past. Overall i think it can only help the game as a whole without penalizing group play...it also will allow smaller groups of players to have clear objectives to fight over and for groups smaller then 12 people to actually make a meaningful inmpact without being forced into one specific style of play.

    thanks for the kind words folks!
    Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
    Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
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    Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)

    "Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak

  • ZOS_BrianWheeler
    ZOS_BrianWheeler
    PvP & Combat Lead
    Taking into account the current gameplay mechanics\mentality we currently see on live:

    If it were all three required to "open the flags" for capture, it most likely would turn into everyone piling up at the "last resource" needed (you sort of see this already with Emperor-ship keeps). That's what I'd do at least...why worry about defending the keep when you know the flags can't be flipped as long as that last resource is held/easily flipped back to your side? This would be the most effective way of defending a keep, by balling up at a resource....which seems odd.

    If it were 2 out of three, that may help mitigate the issue but could also promote "more bigger zerg" vs. "little zerg" warfare as players would roll from resource to resource flipping and back flipping.

    That's not to say either of these ideas wouldn't get implemented...In fact we've brought this up internally before as well. Currently however we are leaning more towards making the keeps harder to break into and making defense easier for smaller groups.

    We've also talked about moving the flags into Towers as we've seen that mentioned several times, however the Towers would then need to be non-destructible as a flag floating on the third floor if the tower is burned down would be uncapturable. "Snapping" the flag to the ground would be an nasty amount of code to add as well mind you. There are other options for the towers too, such as possibly putting an additional flag at the middle level and not letting them get totally blown up.
    Wheeler
    ESO PVP Lead & Combat Lead
    Staff Post
  • Manoekin
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    Taking into account the current gameplay mechanics\mentality we currently see on live:

    If it were all three required to "open the flags" for capture, it most likely would turn into everyone piling up at the "last resource" needed (you sort of see this already with Emperor-ship keeps). That's what I'd do at least...why worry about defending the keep when you know the flags can't be flipped as long as that last resource is held/easily flipped back to your side? This would be the most effective way of defending a keep, by balling up at a resource....which seems odd.

    If it were 2 out of three, that may help mitigate the issue but could also promote "more bigger zerg" vs. "little zerg" warfare as players would roll from resource to resource flipping and back flipping.

    That's not to say either of these ideas wouldn't get implemented...In fact we've brought this up internally before as well. Currently however we are leaning more towards making the keeps harder to break into and making defense easier for smaller groups.

    We've also talked about moving the flags into Towers as we've seen that mentioned several times, however the Towers would then need to be non-destructible as a flag floating on the third floor if the tower is burned down would be uncapturable. "Snapping" the flag to the ground would be an nasty amount of code to add as well mind you. There are other options for the towers too, such as possibly putting an additional flag at the middle level and not letting them get totally blown up.

    Ground oils Brian, ground oils!

    Well thought out post though.
  • Etaniel
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    Taking into account the current gameplay mechanics\mentality we currently see on live:

    If it were all three required to "open the flags" for capture, it most likely would turn into everyone piling up at the "last resource" needed (you sort of see this already with Emperor-ship keeps). That's what I'd do at least...why worry about defending the keep when you know the flags can't be flipped as long as that last resource is held/easily flipped back to your side? This would be the most effective way of defending a keep, by balling up at a resource....which seems odd.

    If it were 2 out of three, that may help mitigate the issue but could also promote "more bigger zerg" vs. "little zerg" warfare as players would roll from resource to resource flipping and back flipping.

    That's not to say either of these ideas wouldn't get implemented...In fact we've brought this up internally before as well. Currently however we are leaning more towards making the keeps harder to break into and making defense easier for smaller groups.

    We've also talked about moving the flags into Towers as we've seen that mentioned several times, however the Towers would then need to be non-destructible as a flag floating on the third floor if the tower is burned down would be uncapturable. "Snapping" the flag to the ground would be an nasty amount of code to add as well mind you. There are other options for the towers too, such as possibly putting an additional flag at the middle level and not letting them get totally blown up.

    First of all thanks for your response and input.
    I guess I didn't really think about the zerg strategy of piling everyone onto the last ressource to defend it...
    Nevertheless, it would be much easier to break that zerg, seeing as you wouldn't have to stack through a breach to reach the flag. You'd have overall more space to fight it out.

    As for the additional flags, why not add a flag on the middle floor of the keep? The stairs are only destructible on the last floor, so destruction wouldn't be an issue.
    You could also place a flag in the courtyard, if putting them in towers is too complicated. Anything to make keep capturing/defending more varied really :)
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  • ZOS_BrianWheeler
    ZOS_BrianWheeler
    PvP & Combat Lead
    There definitely is more space to fight over in open field at a Resource for sure and that's why it could possibly work =)

    The stairs are exactly where we are talking about maybe adding a flag....we'd need a smaller flag...or taller towers to make it fit in there however.

    I also want to note the idea would work very well in a controlled situation with 2 sides having equal numbers, but we all know that's not exactly how it turns out in Cyrodiil 99% of the time.
    Wheeler
    ESO PVP Lead & Combat Lead
    Staff Post
  • Xsorus
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    Taking into account the current gameplay mechanics\mentality we currently see on live:

    If it were all three required to "open the flags" for capture, it most likely would turn into everyone piling up at the "last resource" needed (you sort of see this already with Emperor-ship keeps). That's what I'd do at least...why worry about defending the keep when you know the flags can't be flipped as long as that last resource is held/easily flipped back to your side? This would be the most effective way of defending a keep, by balling up at a resource....which seems odd.

    If it were 2 out of three, that may help mitigate the issue but could also promote "more bigger zerg" vs. "little zerg" warfare as players would roll from resource to resource flipping and back flipping.

    That's not to say either of these ideas wouldn't get implemented...In fact we've brought this up internally before as well. Currently however we are leaning more towards making the keeps harder to break into and making defense easier for smaller groups.

    We've also talked about moving the flags into Towers as we've seen that mentioned several times, however the Towers would then need to be non-destructible as a flag floating on the third floor if the tower is burned down would be uncapturable. "Snapping" the flag to the ground would be an nasty amount of code to add as well mind you. There are other options for the towers too, such as possibly putting an additional flag at the middle level and not letting them get totally blown up.

    Here's what I don't get, Why is it so easy to knock down walls in this game? I mean you can basically have both the outer wall and inner wall down in a keep in less then 2 minutes....That is a super low amount of time... In fact most of the time I see keeps either zerged down or "bursted" down. You shouldn't be able to burst down a keep..that's just silly.

    Siege in general also needs to be more dangerous as well...I remember in Warhammer Online for example a single guy setting up oil could be devastating early on in that game.

    Though i think the main problem you'll run into is the lower population side being screwed over....But that could be fixed by adding bonuses...
  • Merlight
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    If it were all three required to "open the flags" for capture, it most likely would turn into everyone piling up at the "last resource" needed (you sort of see this already with Emperor-ship keeps). That's what I'd do at least...why worry about defending the keep when you know the flags can't be flipped as long as that last resource is held/easily flipped back to your side?

    How about making it a trade-off instead of hard lock? With N resources belonging to the keep, capturing a flag would take 2^N as long for the attackers.
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  • Rust_in_Peace
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    I feel like this idea would just end up with more people balling up around a single keep; rather than spreading out and attacking different keeps at the same time. If you've ever been in one of those "Last Emp keep" 3 way alliance battles then you know what I'm talking about. That's pretty much what I'm picturing with this.
  • CJohnson81
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    There definitely is more space to fight over in open field at a Resource for sure and that's why it could possibly work =)

    The stairs are exactly where we are talking about maybe adding a flag....we'd need a smaller flag...or taller towers to make it fit in there however.

    I also want to note the idea would work very well in a controlled situation with 2 sides having equal numbers, but we all know that's not exactly how it turns out in Cyrodiil 99% of the time.

    Would it be difficult for flags to randomly spawn at different sites within the keep? So when attacking, you might not know where it's going to be and will have to do a little bit of searching?
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  • tinythinker
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    2. All other keeps require 2 out of 3 resources to be captured in order to be able to flip the flags in the keep.

    This does a few things:

    1. It will require zergs to leave people behind at these resources and ensure someone doesn;t flip the resources back while they are inside the keep fighting over the inner, as if they lose control of the required resources before taking the keep, they will have to go back and retake it before the flags hence the keep can flip.

    2. It helps spread people out and adds more map tactics to PVP..it also naturally spreads out the fighting as there will be folks that will guard the resources outside the keep as well as people fighting inside and folks wanting to try and flip those resources, it overall adds more spread out fighting across the entire keep fight. It also allows delaying and buying time in defenses as well.

    Yes i know people will try and say folks could troll take resources, and they should. thats the point! if you have all 70 people inside the keep and no one guarding the resource and a small group flips a resource flag outside preventing you from flipping the keep, that has now extended the fight over the keep and you have been outsmarted.

    How many do you send outside to take back the resource?
    How many enemies are outside at the resource?
    If you leave, the enemy could repair the walls while your trying to get the resource back to flip
    If you all stay inside you will be stuck fighting respawning NPC's

    I like this idea...if forces us to think more objectively about what to do instead of just ramming everyone into one place...Resources will become prime spots for 5-7 man skirmishes fighting over control while the larger forces are fighting inside...it allows smaller groups to have a real chance of influencing outcomes without being forced into large groups...

    imagine the excitement...the enemy has wiped most of your factions teammates inside the keep and just as they are about to flip, you take the resource denying them the capture, now your teammates have regrouped and another push occurs.

    this could literally give us keep battles that last for HOURS and folks are more spread out over the 3 min sieges we have now....its hard to keep 70 people in one place when there are 3 resources they need to fight over and a keep and outside of relic keeps you need to keep 2 of them to flip the flags...this spreads people out by design around the keep....i think its a good idea and it makes resources actually matter. it also gives the small scale crowd the non-zerg skirmishes they are after...as large groups will still be required to take keep inners so both styles are still 100% viable.


    I agree, and this could be linked to the existing system for debuffing strongholds.
    Revising the way strongholds are captured:
    Currently, if you are interested in capturing a stronghold, the reasons for taking resources are limited to:
    1. Good place to siege from.
    2. A fallback position with a quartermaster.
    3. To cut off transit even if the stronghold unflags.
    4. Uhh, just coz, you dig?

    There is a mechanic that is supposed to help you cap the stronghold, wherein you can weaken the walls, gates, and NPC guards by taking the mine, lumbermill, and farm respectively. There is currently no point to bother with it since the degrading takes too long and does too little. Just set up a bunch of siege, punch the wall down fast, and rush in. You can wipe the NPCs no sweat because the best strategy rewards having everyone together on siege, then together through the breach.

    How about this instead?

    Greatly speed up how quickly stronghold degradation happens and increase the impact *IF* players stay at the resource, the more the better, up to some cap. So if you get 1-2 or 4-5 or ???? many people to *stay at the farm* until the stronghold is capped, the guards will be easier, especially if you cap the farm first and have the players stay while others go off to siege. The same for weakening the walls by taking the mine. And why bother? See the previous section about map domination/PvDoor. The hit points of walls, gates, and guards would be boosted a ton. No resources would mean even at siege limit you are going to be taking a reaaaaally long time to get inside. Don't want to weaken the guards? Get your zerg rekt by guards.

    To be clear, the effects of holding a resource would not take forever to manifest, and doing so would make strongholds the same strength they are at present. Taking stronholds wouldn't be impossible it would just require coordination and a little bit more strategy. However, you couldn't just have everyone together at the same place. The sieging force would have to spread out as people would need to stay at the resources to get the easier cap. That makes the resources a target for defenders as well, and losing control of the resource means the debuffs go away, so imagine a force ready to charge the inner breach take a flag and they suddenly lose the farm... "Oopsy."
    Basically, you *have to* take the farm plus either the mill or the mine, depending on whether you want to hit the walls or the gates. So, in essence, you would need 2 out of the 3 resources for a cap attempt. Similar ideas, just working in/building on the existing debuff mechanics.



    Edited by tinythinker on November 19, 2015 5:51PM
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  • ZOS_BrianWheeler
    ZOS_BrianWheeler
    PvP & Combat Lead
    Flags spawning in random locations would not be easy to add in.
    Wheeler
    ESO PVP Lead & Combat Lead
    Staff Post
  • CJohnson81
    CJohnson81
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    I was just thinking that there could be another way to move the heavy fighting away from the keeps from time to time. I was thinking how PVP is basically capture the flag, which tends to be my least favorite game type.

    Summary: add other game types to the campaign besides capture the flag that also need to be completed in order for a campaign to be won. The mission board would be the matchmaking point

    What if, using the mission board more like a matchmaking platform, you could opt-in to missions that feature game-type changes. For example, you go to the mission board and you are put into a small scale 5 v 5 battle where you need to get intelligence at a certain keep, and there is a small group of counter intelligence there to stop you.

    Or you are put on escort duty with a larger group, where you have to ensure that a caravan makes it from one keep to another, or from a town to the main base. Meanwhile, another group has intelligence that there is a caravan to be stopped, with sweet loot for capturing it.

    You could be given orders to report for a large scale battle, in the open field, where the objective is more like a deathmatch. Kill or be killed.

    I know that all of this likely means that the open world feel becomes reduced, but it's the future and there may be a way to make these sorts of game types playable within the open world. For example, let the player abandon the mission at any time by walking away, but maybe they get a debuff for being a deserter or something like that.

    Finally, I would like to feel that everything we do within the campaign has a reason. So I think that part of the key to winning a campaign should also include having to complete some number of missions spying, escorting, and straight ahead PVP battling in addition to owning keeps. The mission board could show you which missions need to be completed and you can pick one and go for it. You can be a part of a zerg if you want, or take on some of the small scale missions if that's your thing. Maybe you want to be put into a 1v1, so there could be a mission that is basically a challenge to take on another faction's champion.

    Many times I've run around for quite some time trying to find some action on the map, only to get killed because I'm running solo, with no direction. I'd like to see a little more coordination and perhaps that can be done with the mission board.
    Huor Melwasul - Archdemon, The Demons of Light - Warlock, Hufflepuff House - ADXB1 - NA
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  • Ishammael
    Ishammael
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    Taking into account the current gameplay mechanics\mentality we currently see on live:

    If it were all three required to "open the flags" for capture, it most likely would turn into everyone piling up at the "last resource" needed (you sort of see this already with Emperor-ship keeps). That's what I'd do at least...why worry about defending the keep when you know the flags can't be flipped as long as that last resource is held/easily flipped back to your side? This would be the most effective way of defending a keep, by balling up at a resource....which seems odd.

    If it were 2 out of three, that may help mitigate the issue but could also promote "more bigger zerg" vs. "little zerg" warfare as players would roll from resource to resource flipping and back flipping.

    That's not to say either of these ideas wouldn't get implemented...In fact we've brought this up internally before as well. Currently however we are leaning more towards making the keeps harder to break into and making defense easier for smaller groups.

    We've also talked about moving the flags into Towers as we've seen that mentioned several times, however the Towers would then need to be non-destructible as a flag floating on the third floor if the tower is burned down would be uncapturable. "Snapping" the flag to the ground would be an nasty amount of code to add as well mind you. There are other options for the towers too, such as possibly putting an additional flag at the middle level and not letting them get totally blown up.

    What if, rather than be required to take the keep, resources provided significant bonuses to the defenders (better walls, better guards, etc.). If the offensive group decides to take the resources, then they deny the defense bonus at the cost of giving away their position.

    An additional flag in the courtyard of a keep would be neat.

    Flags in the tower of resources would be really great, especially coupled with enhanced bonuses for the resources.
  • tinythinker
    tinythinker
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    CJohnson81 wrote: »
    I was just thinking that there could be another way to move the heavy fighting away from the keeps from time to time. I was thinking how PVP is basically capture the flag, which tends to be my least favorite game type.

    ...I would like to feel that everything we do within the campaign has a reason. So I think that part of the key to winning a campaign should also include having to complete some number of missions spying, escorting, and straight ahead PVP battling in addition to owning keeps.

    I know there was a thread about supply lines a good while back, but it was more about capping stronghold resources. But riffing off of your suggestion, basically you could make the supply wagon a moving "flag" to be defended or capped, no new quest needed. They would periodically leave from one stronghold or town to a destination with a contingent of NPC guards. You could choose to escort or not at any time, either because you planned to or just ran across them. They would stop moving when attacked, and you would get an O-tick for capturing the wagon or a D-tick for defending it, just like a stronghold or outpost.

    As for spying that sounds fun too, and I will just toss in this idea for PoW camps as well :)

    EDIT: I've seen guards taking NPC prisoners away before in Cyrodiil after capturing a stronghold, so maybe some of the moving "flags" could also be captured NPCs being taken for imprisonment, interrogation, etc.

    EDIT 2: Capping these moving flags could have benefits beyond AP, such as loot. But capping and defending them could also have other effects, either on resources, strongholds, or the players involved in he fight. Buffs, debuffs, etc.


    Edited by tinythinker on November 19, 2015 6:41PM
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  • CJohnson81
    CJohnson81
    ✭✭✭✭

    As for spying that sounds fun too, and I will just toss in this idea for PoW camps as well :)

    Ooooooh I like the PoW camps.

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  • HeroOfNone
    HeroOfNone
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    I'd like to see the outside resources require to be held to take a keep, but not an absolute requirement. Some of the ideas how this could be implimented

    1. forward camps can only be setup in an area with 3 resources - back when we still had forward camps, this was an idea I liked that forward camps could only be set down on uncaptured keeps, 1 or 2 at a time (depending on the resources you own), and with at least 2 to 3 of the resources. Its not as OP or trollish as prior camps, limits the respawn, and when coupled with things like restrictive res zones from the camp, has less chance for abuse.
    2. Limited number of teleports in when a keep is under attack - say each resource and the mage's around the way shrine count as 3 teleport into the keep ever 30 seconds or so. When a keep is flaged and all 3 wayshrine mages are alive then the defenders can teleport in 12 players (max). If all 3 resources are takwn, regardless of the keep being flagged, only 3 can come inside for 30 seconds. To prevent abuse, this would be a teleport into the keep, you cant go through or back and forth to waste attempts. (Maybe even a 3 min cooldown after teleportimg in once). Players trying to 50/50 flag a keep with 5 guys it won't be as effective if they don't take the resources first.
    3. Make keeps raid level events with multiple mobs spawning to repair a breach based on the resources you leave open - the gaurds in keeps are weak in ability and easy to avoid, making it easy to a group of 5 to take an undefended keep pretty easy. If we spawn more gaurds to the breach, through the 2 side towers, then the resources will determine the power, numbers, and rate of the gaurds.


    These are 3 ways to make these resources more valuable and possibly give objectives to split up the zergs (to cover multiple ares).

    Hope to see more come up in the future.
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  • Docmandu
    Docmandu
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    We've also talked about moving the flags into Towers as we've seen that mentioned several times, however the Towers would then need to be non-destructible as a flag floating on the third floor if the tower is burned down would be uncapturable. "Snapping" the flag to the ground would be an nasty amount of code to add as well mind you. There are other options for the towers too, such as possibly putting an additional flag at the middle level and not letting them get totally blown up.

    Why not do something like you did in DAoC.. instead of having a flag outside, have a tower captain / boss inside the tower, no flag. Keep the option to raze the tower (I guess the code would already handle the case if you gave a mob on the 2nd floor that it will fall down to the bottom if the tower is razed?!).

    One of the fun "tower" farms mechanics in DAoC, was that people opened the gate, but didn't kill the tower captain, so that the doors didn't shut and people would setup inside to kill people trying to go defend it.. since the captain wasn't killed, the tower couldn't be razed down... it was a risk for the guys farming the tower since enemies could freely come inside, but had as reward that the protection the structure gave, couldn't be torn down.

    Having to break into the tower to capture the resource, helps to defend it a bit longer versus an onslaught of enemies.
  • Hammy01
    Hammy01
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    @ZOS_BrianWheeler
    For me I would like to get away from the whole.. break down walls and stack up on flags to flip a keep. Instead I would like to see Keep Lords and Generals added in.. just get rid of the flags and add in two Keep Generals and one Keep Lord that must be beaten in order to flip the keep!. By doing this you also give all classes a roll as you will need some tanks for the Lords and Generals and healers to keep them alive!!
    Edited by Hammy01 on November 19, 2015 7:21PM
  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
    Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    Hammy01 wrote: »
    @ZOS_BrianWheeler
    For me I would like to get away from the whole.. break down walls and stack up on flags to flip a keep. Instead I would like to see Keep Lords and Generals added in.. just get rid of the flags and add in two Keep Generals and one Keep Lord that must be beaten in order to flip the keep!. By doing this you also give all classes a roll as you will need some tanks for the Lords and Generals and healers to keep them alive!!

    I am imagining a roaming boss like in the sewers throwing fire AOEs everywhere. Not sure if want.
  • Manoekin
    Manoekin
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    There definitely is more space to fight over in open field at a Resource for sure and that's why it could possibly work =)

    The stairs are exactly where we are talking about maybe adding a flag....we'd need a smaller flag...or taller towers to make it fit in there however.

    I also want to note the idea would work very well in a controlled situation with 2 sides having equal numbers, but we all know that's not exactly how it turns out in Cyrodiil 99% of the time.

    What if you:
    • Made the towers slightly larger and indestructable
    • Put the flag at the top of the tower
    • Remove the door from the tower leaving it open
    • Move the guards into the tower(buff guards too + add another mage or archer guard to the resource garrison)
    • Increase the time it takes to capture a resource flag to an acceptable time for defenders from the keep to react

    That plus only requiring 1/3 or 2/3 of resources for a keep capture might be good. The idea of capturing a keep and then not having it flip over to you because you don't have the lumbermill never sat well with me. Maybe look into taking all three resources = flagging a keep instead of just cutting transit, though I can see some issues with that.
  • Rust_in_Peace
    Rust_in_Peace
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    Hammy01 wrote: »
    @ZOS_BrianWheeler
    For me I would like to get away from the whole.. break down walls and stack up on flags to flip a keep. Instead I would like to see Keep Lords and Generals added in.. just get rid of the flags and add in two Keep Generals and one Keep Lord that must be beaten in order to flip the keep!. By doing this you also give all classes a roll as you will need some tanks for the Lords and Generals and healers to keep them alive!!

    no more pve in pvp please and thank you
  • Ishammael
    Ishammael
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    Manoekin wrote: »
    There definitely is more space to fight over in open field at a Resource for sure and that's why it could possibly work =)

    The stairs are exactly where we are talking about maybe adding a flag....we'd need a smaller flag...or taller towers to make it fit in there however.

    I also want to note the idea would work very well in a controlled situation with 2 sides having equal numbers, but we all know that's not exactly how it turns out in Cyrodiil 99% of the time.

    What if you:
    • Made the towers slightly larger and indestructable
    • Put the flag at the top of the tower
    • Remove the door from the tower leaving it open
    • Move the guards into the tower(buff guards too + add another mage or archer guard to the resource garrison)
    • Increase the time it takes to capture a resource flag to an acceptable time for defenders from the keep to react

    That plus only requiring 1/3 or 2/3 of resources for a keep capture might be good. The idea of capturing a keep and then not having it flip over to you because you don't have the lumbermill never sat well with me. Maybe look into taking all three resources = flagging a keep instead of just cutting transit, though I can see some issues with that.

    Definitely like all of these suggestions.
  • Jhunn
    Jhunn
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    That's not to say either of these ideas wouldn't get implemented...In fact we've brought this up internally before as well. Currently however we are leaning more towards making the keeps harder to break into and making defense easier for smaller groups.
    Nice.

    Edit: Though I hope this doesn't involve more sieging.
    Edited by Jhunn on November 19, 2015 9:16PM
    Gave up.
  •  Jules
    Jules
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    Top notch idea. Really.
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