Sewer ladder safe zones are flat out wrong.

TheBull

Fix now please. They should provide the same type of limited immunity as the IC doors do, not the unlimited immunity they currently provide.

Starshadw

TheBull wrote: »

Fix now please. They should provide the same type of limited immunity as the IC doors do, not the unlimited immunity they currently provide.

I disagree. People were camping the sewer entrances above and below, and slaughtering people who were stuck on long loading screens, where the temporary immunity wore off before the character fully loaded. Providing immunity as long as the person stays in that spot allows them to get through the loading screen, look around, and decide whether they want to proceed, or go back up/down the ladder.

If you're standing there at a ladder entrance, hoping to gank someone and they are pinging you from safety, you have the control in the situation - you can move away and get out of their LOS.

TheBull

Starshadw wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Fix now please. They should provide the same type of limited immunity as the IC doors do, not the unlimited immunity they currently provide.

I disagree. People were camping the sewer entrances above and below, and slaughtering people who were stuck on long loading screens, where the temporary immunity wore off before the character fully loaded. Providing immunity as long as the person stays in that spot allows them to get through the loading screen, look around, and decide whether they want to proceed, or go back up/down the ladder.

If you're standing there at a ladder entrance, hoping to gank someone and they are pinging you from safety, you have the control in the situation - you can move away and get out of their LOS.

What that does is create "run to the safe spot situations". Not only does it provide unlimited immunity for those going down the ladder, but also for those who run to the ladder.

Starshadw

TheBull wrote: »

What that does is create "run to the safe spot situations". Not only does it provide unlimited immunity for those going down the ladder, but also for those who run to the ladder.

Sure, if they can get to it before they get annihilated - but how, exactly, does that hurt you? As soon as they leave the spot, they are vulnerable again.

So they can either stand there and do nothing, go up/down the ladder and hope the situation is better on the other end, or use a teleport stone. That's the extent of what they can do. They can't hurt you, unless you're standing there in their LOS and letting them ping you from safety - and why would you do that? You can either get out of LOS, stealth and wait for them to leave, or you can just move on.

TheBull

Starshadw wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

What that does is create "run to the safe spot situations". Not only does it provide unlimited immunity for those going down the ladder, but also for those who run to the ladder.

Sure, if they can get to it before they get annihilated - but how, exactly, does that hurt you? As soon as they leave the spot, they are vulnerable again.

So they can either stand there and do nothing, go up/down the ladder and hope the situation is better on the other end, or use a teleport stone. That's the extent of what they can do. They can't hurt you, unless you're standing there in their LOS and letting them ping you from safety - and why would you do that? You can either get out of LOS, stealth and wait for them to leave, or you can just move on.

It hurts the integrity of PvP. No where in all of the game is there a place where you can run to a spot while in combat and then be immune (safe) from all attacks. I do not believe it is intended to function this way being the only such instance where this occurs.

rokrdt05

The problem isn't with people attempting to gank at the sewer entrances (which I disapprove of). Where it becomes an issue is when someone/group is in a few rooms over farming and another factions comes by and starts attacking them... said person/group proceeds to run to the sewer entrance and get in the safe zone.

That takes away any danger of farming in the sewers, which was definitely not intended with the release of PvE based content in a PvP zone. I agree with zoning in/out and being able to decide to proceed or not, but you should NOT be able to go back in the safe zone once you've decided to enter. You cannot get a safe zone up top, so you shouldn't have a perma one down below either.

Starshadw

rokrdt05 wrote: »

The problem isn't with people attempting to gank at the sewer entrances (which I disapprove of). Where it becomes an issue is when someone/group is in a few rooms over farming and another factions comes by and starts attacking them... said person/group proceeds to run to the sewer entrance and get in the safe zone.

You misunderstand. The reason they implemented the current "permanent" immunity when at that precise location is because there were gankers who would literally farm these ladder entrances - with the long loading screens, people were stuck still loading while at the same time, their immunity had worn off and they were being killed while being unable to defend themselves. People would simply camp the entrances and spam AOEs as people were loading in. Since they have not been able to fix the long loading screens, this is intended to prevent people from slaughtering other players who are unable to defend themselves.

Someone running to a safe spot is no different than someone running into a keep to get away from attackers.

rokrdt05

Starshadw wrote: »

rokrdt05 wrote: »

The problem isn't with people attempting to gank at the sewer entrances (which I disapprove of). Where it becomes an issue is when someone/group is in a few rooms over farming and another factions comes by and starts attacking them... said person/group proceeds to run to the sewer entrance and get in the safe zone.

You misunderstand. The reason they implemented the current "permanent" immunity when at that precise location is because there were gankers who would literally farm these ladder entrances - with the long loading screens, people were stuck still loading while at the same time, their immunity had worn off and they were being killed while being unable to defend themselves. People would simply camp the entrances and spam AOEs as people were loading in. Since they have not been able to fix the long loading screens, this is intended to prevent people from slaughtering other players who are unable to defend themselves.

Someone running to a safe spot is no different than someone running into a keep to get away from attackers.

When Imperial City was released the sewers were meant to be a constant danger zone and different from open world PvP out in Cyrodiil. You are stuck on the whole loading in/out part, I already said I agreed with you that this was a needed change. However that immunity should not extend when you leave and then decide to come back. That completely negates the way IC was intended by the developers. What it encourages is people being able to farm without consequence in a PvP based zone.

Islyn

Starshadw wrote: »

rokrdt05 wrote: »

The problem isn't with people attempting to gank at the sewer entrances (which I disapprove of). Where it becomes an issue is when someone/group is in a few rooms over farming and another factions comes by and starts attacking them... said person/group proceeds to run to the sewer entrance and get in the safe zone.

You misunderstand. The reason they implemented the current "permanent" immunity when at that precise location is because there were gankers who would literally farm these ladder entrances

- with the long loading screens, people were stuck still loading while at the same time, their immunity had worn off and they were being killed while being unable to defend themselves. People would simply camp the entrances and spam AOEs as people were loading in. Since they have not been able to fix the long loading screens, t

his is intended to prevent people from slaughtering other players who are unable to defend themselves.

Someone running to a safe spot is no different than someone running into a keep to get away from attackers.

This.

Nothing like loading in dead and robbed because of scum who would rather wait at ladders than fight in any fair way.

This is the best of a bad PLAYER CREATED situation.

If the loser dickweeds hadn't been camping the ladders in the first place, this wouldn't have happened. You made your bed, so lie in it.

TheBull

Islyn wrote: »

Starshadw wrote: »

rokrdt05 wrote: »

The problem isn't with people attempting to gank at the sewer entrances (which I disapprove of). Where it becomes an issue is when someone/group is in a few rooms over farming and another factions comes by and starts attacking them... said person/group proceeds to run to the sewer entrance and get in the safe zone.

You misunderstand. The reason they implemented the current "permanent" immunity when at that precise location is because there were gankers who would literally farm these ladder entrances

- with the long loading screens, people were stuck still loading while at the same time, their immunity had worn off and they were being killed while being unable to defend themselves. People would simply camp the entrances and spam AOEs as people were loading in. Since they have not been able to fix the long loading screens, t

his is intended to prevent people from slaughtering other players who are unable to defend themselves.

Someone running to a safe spot is no different than someone running into a keep to get away from attackers.

This.

Nothing like loading in dead and robbed because of scum who would rather wait at ladders than fight in any fair way.

This is the best of a bad PLAYER CREATED situation.

If the loser dickweeds hadn't been camping the ladders in the first place, this wouldn't have happened. You made your bed, so lie in it.

smh you two still don't understand. LOADING IN is fine. No problems at all.

Running to the ladder in order to escape is bad and most likely unintended. The only safe zones in the Imperial City sewers are supposed to be the alliances bases as per 1.6 patch notes.

Levo18

Gankers mad haha

Starshadw

TheBull wrote: »

smh you two still don't understand. LOADING IN is fine. No problems at all.

Running to the ladder in order to escape is bad and most likely unintended. The only safe zones in the Imperial City sewers are supposed to be the alliances bases as per 1.6 patch notes.

I understand quite well - and I'll say yet again, the reason the immunity is now location-based, and not timer-based, was due to people camping the ladders. Originally, the immunity was on a timer - but, as has already been pointed out, ever since the introduction of IC, players have experienced much longer loading times. They at first thought they would be able to implement a fix for that - but they have yet to be able to do so, as we've all seen.

As such, because loading screens for people can range from 15 seconds to 2+ minutes (not to mention, the folks I know who would sometimes crash altogether going up or down the ladders), they changed it to location-based (I'm assuming they've done so purposefully - if it really is something that snuck in and is not intended, I still applaud it for the reasons already stated - no one should be stuck unable to defend their characters because they are still loading). With a location-based immunity (much like the balconies topside in IC), no matter how long someone takes to load, they don't have to worry about getting ganked and not being able to do anything to stop it.

And yes, that means that someone can run to that specific location, and be safe. I'll take that over the alternative.

Etaniel

Starshadw wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

smh you two still don't understand. LOADING IN is fine. No problems at all.

Running to the ladder in order to escape is bad and most likely unintended. The only safe zones in the Imperial City sewers are supposed to be the alliances bases as per 1.6 patch notes.

I understand quite well - and I'll say yet again, the reason the immunity is now location-based, and not timer-based, was due to people camping the ladders. Originally, the immunity was on a timer - but, as has already been pointed out, ever since the introduction of IC, players have experienced much longer loading times. They at first thought they would be able to implement a fix for that - but they have yet to be able to do so, as we've all seen.

As such, because loading screens for people can range from 15 seconds to 2+ minutes (not to mention, the folks I know who would sometimes crash altogether going up or down the ladders), they changed it to location-based (I'm assuming they've done so purposefully - if it really is something that snuck in and is not intended, I still applaud it for the reasons already stated - no one should be stuck unable to defend their characters because they are still loading). With a location-based immunity (much like the balconies topside in IC), no matter how long someone takes to load, they don't have to worry about getting ganked and not being able to do anything to stop it.

And yes, that means that someone can run to that specific location, and be safe. I'll take that over the alternative.

The implemented system is ridiculous. The immunity should have been permanent, until your character moves (which means you are out of the loading screen) and when you start moving the immunity goes away after 5 seconds or something like that. Providing a safe zone other than your home base is dumb.

This fix is yet a another poorly implemented bandaid.

OdinForge

I don't really care if this gets fixed or not, it probably should supply you an infinite safe zone after loading in. But having the ability to run here later on to disengage combat seems fishy, but it's not the worst.

Kinda funny to pull a sweeper to the ladder with 15 enemies on your tail, only to become safe from the sweeper and the players not in safety get killed.

ZOS_BrianWheeler

We did try the same door immunity that applies and removes after time or taking an offensive action (exactly as the doors above ground), however the loading screen issues made that ability unreliable as sometimes you'd have the immunity on you, and sometimes you wouldn't after zoning into the sewers from above. The ladder buff will get revisited when the loading screens are resolved with reliable consistent loading screen times.

Also note that players running to the ladder was thought about during the implementation of the current immunity zones and deemed the lesser of several evils in adding some form of ladder safety.

pelennor_fields

Levo18 wrote: »

Gankers mad haha

^^^^ XD

QQ - " oh man! You mean there is one room that I can't gank in?

skillastat

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We did try the same door immunity that applies and removes after time or taking an offensive action (exactly as the doors above ground), however the loading screen issues made that ability unreliable as sometimes you'd have the immunity on you, and sometimes you wouldn't after zoning into the sewers from above. The ladder buff will get revisited when the loading screens are resolved with reliable consistent loading screen times.

Also note that players running to the ladder was thought about during the implementation of the current immunity zones and deemed the lesser of several evils in adding some form of ladder safety.

This system need to be revisited as when you engage the combat one time, you can't just run back in the safe zone.
Or add a timer, you descend after the loading screen and you are in "god mode" for 5min. After that, game on.

DaveMoeDee

skillastatb16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We did try the same door immunity that applies and removes after time or taking an offensive action (exactly as the doors above ground), however the loading screen issues made that ability unreliable as sometimes you'd have the immunity on you, and sometimes you wouldn't after zoning into the sewers from above. The ladder buff will get revisited when the loading screens are resolved with reliable consistent loading screen times.

Also note that players running to the ladder was thought about during the implementation of the current immunity zones and deemed the lesser of several evils in adding some form of ladder safety.

This system need to be revisited as when you engage the combat one time, you can't just run back in the safe zone.
Or add a timer, you descend after the loading screen and you are in "god mode" for 5min. After that, game on.

It would be wonderful if they could just yell at source control and make a working implementation of what you want come into existence. But you are adding complexity. And god mode isn't very impressive when you are limited to a single location.

It is far more important that the implementation work than that it is optimal. Adding complexity increases the chances of problems.

And, unlike what was said in earlier posts, there have always been safe areas in PvP. You are there every time you enter Cyrodiil.

Starshadw

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We did try the same door immunity that applies and removes after time or taking an offensive action (exactly as the doors above ground), however the loading screen issues made that ability unreliable as sometimes you'd have the immunity on you, and sometimes you wouldn't after zoning into the sewers from above. The ladder buff will get revisited when the loading screens are resolved with reliable consistent loading screen times.

Also note that players running to the ladder was thought about during the implementation of the current immunity zones and deemed the lesser of several evils in adding some form of ladder safety.

Thank you, @ZOS_BrianWheeler - I absolutely agree. Having fallen prey once to the "I'm going to stand here at the top of the sewers and spam skills as soon as I see you appear because you can't do anything to defend yourself," I'd rather see something that 100% prevents it, even if it means a player has a chance to "escape" by running to a ladder. I personally see that as no different from being able to make it inside a keep up in Cyrodiil.

It's a shame that there are players out there whose actions result in the devs having to take steps like this, but there's the truth of it. For those who don't like this change and who weren't part of the problem - you can blame poorly-behaved players for it, not ZOS.

TheBull

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We did try the same door immunity that applies and removes after time or taking an offensive action (exactly as the doors above ground), however the loading screen issues made that ability unreliable as sometimes you'd have the immunity on you, and sometimes you wouldn't after zoning into the sewers from above. The ladder buff will get revisited when the loading screens are resolved with reliable consistent loading screen times.

Also note that players running to the ladder was thought about during the implementation of the current immunity zones and deemed the lesser of several evils in adding some form of ladder safety.

Thank you for the response. I look forward to when you are able to revisit the situation.

RoamingRiverElk

What could have been done is make the safe zone ONLY that one particular spot where the player materializes, so that it's extremely difficult / nearly impossible to reach that pinhead area when in fight.

Ara_Valleria

TheBull wrote: »

Fix now please. They should provide the same type of limited immunity as the IC doors do, not the unlimited immunity they currently provide.

Sounds like a L2camp issue.

josh.lackey_ESO

I think the immunity (at least from players) should be extended throughout the entire sewers. NO MORE GANKING. IC is a stupid DLC that only a handful of people visit because it rewards the worst scum on the bottom of the ESO barrel for being trolls and punishes players who want to enjoy the content. ZOS screwed it up all right, but not how you think. The ladder immunity is one of the few things they did right with IC.

TheBull

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

I think the immunity (at least from players) should be extended throughout the entire sewers. NO MORE GANKING. IC is a stupid DLC that only a handful of people visit because it rewards the worst scum on the bottom of the ESO barrel for being trolls and punishes players who want to enjoy the content. ZOS screwed it up all right, but not how you think. The ladder immunity is one of the few things they did right with IC.

The sad thing is you believe what you wrote.

Angarato

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

I think the immunity (at least from players) should be extended throughout the entire sewers. NO MORE GANKING. IC is a stupid DLC that only a handful of people visit because it rewards the worst scum on the bottom of the ESO barrel for being trolls and punishes players who want to enjoy the content. ZOS screwed it up all right, but not how you think. The ladder immunity is one of the few things they did right with IC.

please tell me you play on eu and if so which campaign.

xylena

(1) stack weapon damage and max stamina, upkeep camo hunter and rally
(2) ambush deathstroke SA SA SA SA SA for the best consistent dps in pvp
(3) roll roll cloak heal to full with guaranteed vigor crits while invisible

the relative simplicty of ganking in an otherwise complex game is an insult to players that put a lot of thought into their builds and tactics, much in the same way so many loathe the success of zergballs full of unkillable "monkeys" in large scale combat

_Chaos

xylena wrote: »

(1) stack weapon damage and max stamina, upkeep camo hunter and rally
(2) ambush deathstroke SA SA SA SA SA for the best consistent dps in pvp
(3) roll roll cloak heal to full with guaranteed vigor crits while invisible

the relative simplicty of ganking in an otherwise complex game is an insult to players that put a lot of thought into their builds and tactics, much in the same way so many loathe the success of zergballs full of unkillable "monkeys" in large scale combat

As a Magicka DK, I agree. It's a giant slap in the face to be rolled by gear and lame mechanics and not an individual.
I went on my NB for a couple days last week and it was night and day, I didn't even have to try to kill people.

Dreyloch

rokrdt05 wrote: »

The problem isn't with people attempting to gank at the sewer entrances (which I disapprove of). Where it becomes an issue is when someone/group is in a few rooms over farming and another factions comes by and starts attacking them... said person/group proceeds to run to the sewer entrance and get in the safe zone.

That takes away any danger of farming in the sewers, which was definitely not intended with the release of PvE based content in a PvP zone. I agree with zoning in/out and being able to decide to proceed or not, but you should NOT be able to go back in the safe zone once you've decided to enter. You cannot get a safe zone up top, so you shouldn't have a perma one down below either.

And how is that any different from them running to a sweeper boss and dying to HIM rather than you? Go further in so they can't run to the sewer entrance before your able to gank them.

Dreyloch

TheBull wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

I think the immunity (at least from players) should be extended throughout the entire sewers. NO MORE GANKING. IC is a stupid DLC that only a handful of people visit because it rewards the worst scum on the bottom of the ESO barrel for being trolls and punishes players who want to enjoy the content. ZOS screwed it up all right, but not how you think. The ladder immunity is one of the few things they did right with IC.

The sad thing is you believe what you wrote.

It's even sadder that you need the screwed up load screen times to be able to gank someone.

TheBull

Dreyloch wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

I think the immunity (at least from players) should be extended throughout the entire sewers. NO MORE GANKING. IC is a stupid DLC that only a handful of people visit because it rewards the worst scum on the bottom of the ESO barrel for being trolls and punishes players who want to enjoy the content. ZOS screwed it up all right, but not how you think. The ladder immunity is one of the few things they did right with IC.

The sad thing is you believe what you wrote.

It's even sadder that you need the screwed up load screen times to be able to gank someone.

You probably believe that too.

Ackwalan

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We did try the same door immunity that applies and removes after time or taking an offensive action (exactly as the doors above ground), however the loading screen issues made that ability unreliable as sometimes you'd have the immunity on you, and sometimes you wouldn't after zoning into the sewers from above. The ladder buff will get revisited when the loading screens are resolved with reliable consistent loading screen times.

Also note that players running to the ladder was thought about during the implementation of the current immunity zones and deemed the lesser of several evils in adding some form of ladder safety.

OSHA has done several studies on ladder safety. Have you talked to them?