Removal of Champion Points from BWB

Cody

Digerati wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Digerati wrote: »

I don't have a whole lot of CP... but I have enough that pretty much any non-vet stands zero chance against me 1 v 1, and in a group fight, i make all that much more difference. I've rolled several new characters recently and my level 15-25s are wrecking legit newbies.
edit: I would expect to be able to beat most legit newbies due to my knowledge and experience with the game and its mechanics... But I can just clown on them. The advantage is significant. I'm doing like 10% more damage and taking 10% less damage, as well as all those other little perks on the side.. I am at least 20% more powerful than an equally geared, equally leveled non-vet. It's pathetic that some are actually in favor of keeping this in place.

The whole point of the non-vet league is so that newbies don't have to compete with stacked characters... Yet the current situation is that some will have an immense advantage... And it's just impossible for the legit newb to make up the difference.

Maybe just make CP available to non-vets? So you just slowly earn CP after 10, rather than only after 50?

CPs are not doing all of that:/ especially if you "dont have a whole lot" I only have about 80 and still beat most of the people I fight in BwB. you just have more experience. you also have to remember that not every BwB player is new. I am willing to bet that many veteran players have come to BwB to escape the horror that is vet PvP, and have some CPs themselves.

I would advocate a CP removal for BwB though. it cant hurt anything

I don't care if I know how to play and I know to keep my gear up to date and know to use food buffs.. I shouldn't be able to log into a level 14 and /yawn at ANYONE and then drop them in 3 seconds. I can because I have a nice chunk of CP and I am 30%+ more powerful than someone who has no CP could possibly be.

I could see if the guy was totally undergeared... But if the guy actually knows his class, he knows how to build, he's got good gear, I shouldn't be that more powerful simply because I have a high level. I'm not in BwB to play a twink. I'm in there to be on level ground with my newbie friends.

Then dont use food buffs, dont use quality gear, you just listed 2 things that make you powerful in combat compared to your enemies. Level means little in blackwater due to battle level, not CP. Turn off your battle level while in BwB if it lets you and you will see.

it is blackwater blade. A lot of players are new, the amount of CP you have will not change that, no matter how much more powerful you claim to be. If you want to stop owning people, then find the vet players. they are spot-able if you pay attention. I have faced many good players in BwB that gave me a run for my money, and i have played since beta. One of them was level 17, and my BwB character is 28! level alone means nothing. I dont even use food buffs in BwB:/ they are not needed and would only make me more powerful. You sound like you are experienced at the game; because of this, you will likely beat quite a few people that you meet. You cannot erase your experience, which is the main reason you do well. CPs be danged. If your friend(s is/are new, you will beat them regardless of CP.

if you find my BwB character, Kills-While-Not-Sneaking, I will give you a good fight:) i only have 80 and am somewhat decent. I will show you how little CP means.

Do not mistake my disagreement for not agreeing about having no CPs in BwB. No harm will be done if CPs are excluded from the non-vet, I support it 100%, I just disagree with your opinion that CPs are the sole reason you are beating people in BwB. Trust me, once you get into the horror that is vet PvP, you will have a harder time:) I was dealt 9K worth of DoT damage in just 3-5 seconds last time I was in it, countering that should be fun:)

Master_Fluff

Even with a few 100 cp it's quite easy to be taken down. 10k damage from one class skill day before yesterday. Nope, not from any wrecking blow/momentum spammer . Almost half the healthpool. And that was my level 46 nightblade, with plenty health leeching skills unlocked. The new battle spirit version makes pvp interesting again. Long rage attacks is the way to go now, I think. Snipe and it's morphs will see a lot of use from now on.

Asmael

4 - Neutral priority, "I don't care!"

It's not CPs. It's definitely NOT CPs.

Gear with food is the way to go now, and it reaches absurd levels. You don't win because you have 100, 200 or even 300 CPs, you win because your gear gives 35k-40k maximum magicka/stamina and 2500+ weapon damage/spell power, with 30%+ crits.

The stats from gear alone are absolutely insane, my WB's deals more than 10.000 dmg, and that's on a level 12 stamblade...

Digerati

7 - Highest priority, this change is crucial and development resources should be pulled from any and all directions, even if it means postponing other releases

Asmael wrote: »

It's not CPs. It's definitely NOT CPs.

Gear with food is the way to go now, and it reaches absurd levels. You don't win because you have 100, 200 or even 300 CPs, you win because your gear gives 35k-40k maximum magicka/stamina and 2500+ weapon damage/spell power, with 30%+ crits.

The stats from gear alone are absolutely insane, my WB's deals more than 10.000 dmg, and that's on a level 12 stamblade...

Did an experiment... I have ~100 CP. On a level 17 stamblade, next to a buddy, level 17 stamblade, with no CP. We are wearing IDENTICAL gear (literally a crafted suit to be identical and no jewelry). Both ate the same food.

My wrecking blow crit for up to 11.4k. His wrecking blow crit for 9.2k.

Now, I also have about 10% extra mitigation of all damage types (I split pretty evenly in that tree).

Yes, gear and experience make a huge difference. No denial there. But, if a newbie with zero CP does EVERYTHING right, he's still at a ~30% overall power deficit compared to someone with a good chunk of CP. If the vet does quite a few things wrong and the newbie does everything right, the newbie has a good shot at victory. But if you've got two equally skilled, equally geared, and equally built guys, the guy with the more CP wins, almost guaranteed. There should not be such a power disparity.


Since we're apparently unable to remove CP from BwB easily, due to technical problems with the way CP was implemented, perhaps we could add a second bolster?
If you have no CP in BwB, you're granted a second bolster that is equal to 20 points put into every node in every CP tree? That would push you passed the 501 cap, and shift the raw-power advantage to the non-vets in the non-vet league. See how quickly people coming here saying CP don't matter in BwB change their tune...

Valencer

3 - Low priority

Cody wrote: »

Then dont use food buffs, dont use quality gear, you just listed 2 things that make you powerful in combat compared to your enemies. Level means little in blackwater due to battle level, not CP. Turn off your battle level while in BwB if it lets you and you will see.

This is not a viable option. You can gimp yourself like that, but you can be damn sure there's people on the other side who are taking every advantage they can get. In BwB EU, there's people running around with non-vet Willpower jewelry. I know people who have stockpiled that set (and others) for various level ranges for precisely this update.

The new battle levelling is insane. It has turned Blackwater Blade into a gear tryhard's paradise and I'm pretty sure the update in general is going to discourage newbies from participating in PvP at all until theyve got some decent crafting skills. You need food (sometimes drinks) and crafted set bonuses to be even close to competitive now.

I guess this was to be expected though. This new battle level system is clearly designed for PvE (and admittedly works quite well for it).

And you're totally right, they could remove CP tomorrow and it wouldn't change a thing. Yes, some of the people here would feel better about themselves but they'll still get killed by the exact same people they're being killed by right now. The gear thing just totally dwarves any impact CP has.

Digerati

7 - Highest priority, this change is crucial and development resources should be pulled from any and all directions, even if it means postponing other releases

Valencer wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Then dont use food buffs, dont use quality gear, you just listed 2 things that make you powerful in combat compared to your enemies. Level means little in blackwater due to battle level, not CP. Turn off your battle level while in BwB if it lets you and you will see.

This is not a viable option. You can gimp yourself like that, but you can be damn sure there's people on the other side who are taking every advantage they can get. In BwB EU, there's people running around with non-vet Willpower jewelry. I know people who have stockpiled that set (and others) for various level ranges for precisely this update.

The new battle levelling is insane. It has turned Blackwater Blade into a gear tryhard's paradise and I'm pretty sure the update in general is going to discourage newbies from participating in PvP at all until theyve got some decent crafting skills. You need food (sometimes drinks) and crafted set bonuses to be even close to competitive now.

I guess this was to be expected though. This new battle level system is clearly designed for PvE (and admittedly works quite well for it).

And you're totally right, they could remove CP tomorrow and it wouldn't change a thing. Yes, some of the people here would feel better about themselves but they'll still get killed by the exact same people they're being killed by right now. The gear thing just totally dwarves any impact CP has.

My experience with noobs...
My friends don't mind being overpowered because someone has more gear or they're higher level than them and therefore have their build more tightly refined. They don't mind someone outskilling them because they just don't know all the tricks that a vet has.
They can level up and unlock skills. They can endeavor for better gear. They can L2P. Those are all visible goals, within their scope and they are happy to chase those goals. In fact, someone outgearing them, or having better skills is encouraging. Like, "wow that guy was super powerful because X, Y, Z. Let's go see if we can do X, Y, Z."

When the advantage is provided by CP, that is not a visible goal. They haven't unlocked it and they're not going to be able to unlock it for quite some time. No one wants to feel like they have to grind a character to end-game in order to be fully competitive on their noob.

That's the issue. CP is something that is mysteriously out of reach of new players, whereas gear, skills, food, potions, and levels are not.

There's 2 fixes that could be implemented without requiring a major overhaul to the implementation of CP:
1. Grant non-vets a CP bolster that exceeds any bonuses a vet would get from CP (flipping the power advantage to those without CP, rather than to those with CP)
2. Give non-vets an avenue for CP progression. Maybe we could start earning CP at level 10, rather than at level 50?

Alucardo

5 - High priority

Valencer wrote: »

This is not a viable option. You can gimp yourself like that, but you can be damn sure there's people on the other side who are taking every advantage they can get. In BwB EU, there's people running around with non-vet Willpower jewelry. I know people who have stockpiled that set (and others) for various level ranges for precisely this update.

The new battle levelling is insane. It has turned Blackwater Blade into a gear tryhard's paradise and I'm pretty sure the update in general is going to discourage newbies from participating in PvP at all until theyve got some decent crafting skills. You need food (sometimes drinks) and crafted set bonuses to be even close to competitive now.

So much truth. I remember when gear in Blackwater was just a way of clothing your body. Now everyone is standing around comparing stats, going out of their way to collect the latest and greatest gear, sacrificing sustain for the ultimate 1-hit-kill setup.
I was all for this update, but I had no idea it was going to have this impact on the campaign I used to enjoy. Yes, it works great for PvE. They said this change was made for Orsinium and they totally nailed it, but I fear they might have also nailed the coffin on BwB. Some are getting irritated of being 2-3 hit and leaving (not the game in general, just BwB). I, myself, took my Sorc out of the campaign because it was a joke. You can't survive stam bursts with a healing ward bubble.

Tillalarrien

7 - Highest priority, this change is crucial and development resources should be pulled from any and all directions, even if it means postponing other releases

Valencer wrote: »

The new battle levelling is insane. It has turned Blackwater Blade into a gear tryhard's paradise and I'm pretty sure the update in general is going to discourage newbies from participating in PvP at all until theyve got some decent crafting skills. You need food (sometimes drinks) and crafted set bonuses to be even close to competitive now.

Tough i think that removing CP form BwB will help with overal balance and they should do it asap, I must agree with luci that it isnt bwbs biggest problem right now. New battle scaling that makes stats really dependable on the gear is. I found myself onshoted when i logged in with lvl 10 alt, while I was doing really sucky dmg. Considering this is a PVP for non vets and new players I would assume MAJORITY cant afford to roll new gear every 5 (or less) lvls and improve it every time to at least blue just to stay competitive..

But as I leaned last time when battle spirit was chaged - complaining here and pleading for change wont fix anything - noone at zos cares for bwb

JamilaRaj

Tillalarrien wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

The new battle levelling is insane. It has turned Blackwater Blade into a gear tryhard's paradise and I'm pretty sure the update in general is going to discourage newbies from participating in PvP at all until theyve got some decent crafting skills. You need food (sometimes drinks) and crafted set bonuses to be even close to competitive now.

Tough i think that removing CP form BwB will help with overal balance and they should do it asap, I must agree with luci that it isnt bwbs biggest problem right now. New battle scaling that makes stats really dependable on the gear is. I found myself onshoted when i logged in with lvl 10 alt, while I was doing really sucky dmg. Considering this is a PVP for non vets and new players I would assume MAJORITY cant afford to roll new gear every 5 (or less) lvls and improve it every time to at least blue just to stay competitive..

[insert standard cash shop joke here]

Tillalarrien wrote: »

But as I leaned last time when battle spirit was chaged - complaining here and pleading for change wont fix anything - noone at zos cares for bwb

They care, but apparently hate us. They do it deliberately to *** us off! And I, for one, am pissed off!!!

EDIT: Errr...to make us feel not entirely happy.

AFrostWolf

7 - Highest priority, this change is crucial and development resources should be pulled from any and all directions, even if it means postponing other releases

If you can't gain CP while in BWB, Then you shouldn't be able to use it.

lolo_01b16_ESO

3 - Low priority

The poll is akward, even when I think it has a low priority compared to other things I want to see fixed (e.g. infinite stamina bug), I still care for it being changed.
But without cp experienced players will still be able to win outnumbered fights as they were doing before cp were added to the game. So if you want a campaign where experienced players can't slaughter new players, you need to make the alliance rank account wide and add a campaign where you only can enter if your rank is low enough.

sagent64

7 - Highest priority, this change is crucial and development resources should be pulled from any and all directions, even if it means postponing other releases

ofcourse those who vote the 0 are the one who's afraid to move in veteran PVP and got a hundreds of CP and want to stay in Non PVP because thats the only server they can become strong ....


CP in non VET SHOULD BE remove thats should happened ... and the funny thing some of those high cp call themselves a legends in bwb non vet ...

Digerati

7 - Highest priority, this change is crucial and development resources should be pulled from any and all directions, even if it means postponing other releases

I hate that I have a nice chunk of CP when I jump into BwB... it feels unfair, but I can't not use them because I know others are using them... It would be awesome if they could just fix this issue.

Sharakor

0 - Let Champion Points stay in the Non-Veteran Campaign

I don't really care if they are removed, I like using them as I feel entitled to them after working so hard although people do have a point in which they shouldn't even be present in BB considering that you unlock them at VR levels. I'm not even going to vote no, I'll murder EP and DC with or without them.

and you guys really overestimate the boost you get from CP's in PvP, I've killed people with over 1.5kish CP on my v3.. and I didn't hear anyone crying then

Sincerely,
KING OF ALL PVP


for PvP lessons please contact me at 1800CALLMEDADDY

Dru1076

Sharakor wrote: »

I don't really care if they are removed, I like using them as I feel entitled to them after working so hard although people do have a point in which they shouldn't even be present in BB considering that you unlock them at VR levels. I'm not even going to vote no, I'll murder EP and DC with or without them.

and you guys really overestimate the boost you get from CP's in PvP, I've killed people with over 1.5kish CP on my v3.. and I didn't hear anyone crying then

Sincerely,
KING OF ALL PVP


for PvP lessons please contact me at 1800CALLMEDADDY

For me, its a total no brainer that people who CANNOT earn cp's should not have to fight people with 100+. Even if the advantage is neglible, which it isn't, more experienced players shouldn't need cp's to win, and its a bit rich. Perhaps the dragging of feet on this is because Zos know they are not attracting enough new players to make taking action worthwhile? I hope that's not the case, but if I had the choice of playing ESO against established players with more experience and more powerful characters, I'd go for a much more recently released game to play.

TheRubiksCube

7 - Highest priority, this change is crucial and development resources should be pulled from any and all directions, even if it means postponing other releases

I'll probably be shooting myself in the foot by supporting the removal of champion points from BwB or other non-vet campaigns, but it's most definitely unfair to the new players that don't have champion points at all to be going up against players that have quite a bit of champion points.

I don't support capping champion points, but that's another subject for another thread.

Skinzz

0 - Let Champion Points stay in the Non-Veteran Campaign

I'm a level 10 dk with 200+ cp and it's hilarious watching 10 players try to kill me. Gotta enjoy it until u guys cry to get it removed.

Mjollo

xskinzcity wrote: »

I'm a level 10 dk with 200+ cp and it's hilarious watching 10 players try to kill me. Gotta enjoy it until u guys cry to get it removed.

You must be new here if you think those asking for CP removal from non-vet are anyone but the vets themselves.