Gap Closers

Etaniel

Legedric wrote: »

Soulac it's just another lazy fix... that's it. There is no real reason behind the silence or even root other than pure lazyness.

If I would work this way as a software/game developer myself my customers (and my boss) would beat the hell out of me and get me fired in a couple of days.

The original problem:
Targets moved out of place after the gap closer got initiated leading to the gap closer user to stand at the original place and the target being elsewhere (ranging from "some steps" to "a mile away").

The lazy fix:
Root the target in place and prevent them from using abilities so they neither walk, nor streak, leap whatever away for the duration of the gap closer animation/pathing.

The professional fix (Variant - follow):
Adjust the destination of the already initiated gap closer while doing the pathing for it to land on target, no matter where it moved using walk, streak, leap or anaything else.

The professional fix (Variant - follow partially):
Adjust the destination of the already initiated gap closer while doing the pathing for it to land on target if they did not use an ability to move. So if a target "walked" -> Adjust the pathing an land on target. If the target "streaked away", land on the original destination as the target used his streak to prevent being hit by the gap closer.

I would have preferred the second professional fix as it sounds quite logic to me.
Too bad the combat team is obviously not eager enough to think that far.

I don't think they aren't eager to think that far (although I'm wondering) but I just think they are incapable of doing it.

I would believe that in terms of coding/implementing difficulty it aws easier to root the target that to proved a dinamically evolving pathing that changes according to your target's movement.

And I think the ZOS team has proven time and time again their dev team's weakness in terms of proper coding, just look at all the broken mechanics, the lazy fixes/nerfs (goodbye stealth rez, goodbye useful chains)

Teargrants

Legedric wrote: »

@mike.gaziotisb16_ESO and @FireCowCommando Well, at least a theory about the original problem can be found some posts up in this thread in one of my comments.

Doesn't necessarily need to be 100% right but it's quite possible and fits the big picture ZOS is drawing all over the place with their "fixes".

Le sigh. The sad thing here is that this whole behavior is an intentional "design decision", whereas one would think any self respecting developer would consider it a bug.

Docmandu

I wonder what would happen if the gap closing enemy looses his connection to the server mid-gap closing ZOS code probably has you become stuck until he logs back in.

Anyway, this is one of those extremely annoying "features" of the game. Makes skills like Retreating Maneuvers etc all but useless for getting away from zergs.

Derra

Soulac wrote: »

I hate the fact that you can't walk or sprint if facing a larger group.
You start running and everyone spams their gap closers on you, making it nearly impossible to get forward at all.
Ambush states that it roots, which is okay, but why a silence? Why do other gap closers silence and root me before they hit?
Sometimes it's helpful cause you know when to dodge, but what about Magicka users who are not really able to dodge everytime someone decides to use a gap closer.

Because sorcs could bolt escape and some guy at zos thought it would be smart for gapclosers to root and silence. It was not that much of an issue before the dodgeroll nerf because dodging was actually the only thing you could do while ppl were spamming gapclosers.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

Jura23 wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

It's a stupid design change that was stealth added last year. As I recall, @Ezareth said Eric Wrobel told him this was intended to stop people from moving out of gap closer range after gap closer has been initiated because that resulted in the gap closer failing.

Still stupid though, no reason that it has to root + silence you for 1 sec constantly, could have just made it so that gap closers continued onto target even if it moved out of range after activation.

This would be common sense. The solution we are dealing with is nonsense. Do the devs play the game?

no

Maulkin

melodeath wrote: »

but even if you just spend 5k stamina on retreating manouver you would still get rooted and end up with a mini stun when someone charges you.. its just feels like zenimax is trying really hard to make pvp unbearable.

Yep. The root still bypasses all immunities including Retreating Manoeuvres.

I tried swapping Boundless Storm for Retreating Manouevres, in hope that dumping 7k of my 14k of stamina (for my LA Sorc) into one skill cast would at least allow me to run away without being snared or rooted. I tested it aaaand....

Ishammael

Worst bug (feature?) in the game right now.

Derra

Ishammael wrote: »

Worst bug (feature?) in the game right now.

It´s working 100% as intended.

Joy_Division

Ishammael wrote: »

Worst bug (feature?) in the game right now.

It's bad but there is some stiff competition for that coveted spot.

gibous

Why doesn't it work the same as with projectiles? If a frag or a snipe is incoming and you move out of range, the projectile continues on its merry way like a freakin homing missile, around corners and anything else. The gap closing ministun is ridiculous.

Of course this affects everyone, but as a magicka sorc, this ministun combined with the loss of momentum after bolt escaping, stacked on top of the BE cost increase... is just LOL. They should just change bolt escape to an ability where you wave a lil white flag above your head.

caeliusstarbreaker

I'm fine if a gap closer, casted while I'm in range, follows me out of range... So long as I can keep moving, not snare/stunned until 9 other ambushing spider monkeys can catch up and perma snare/stun me with their gap closer that has no minimum range. 2hand gap closers are only half as bad.

DaveMoeDee

Jura23 wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

It's a stupid design change that was stealth added last year. As I recall, @Ezareth said Eric Wrobel told him this was intended to stop people from moving out of gap closer range after gap closer has been initiated because that resulted in the gap closer failing.

Still stupid though, no reason that it has to root + silence you for 1 sec constantly, could have just made it so that gap closers continued onto target even if it moved out of range after activation.

This would be common sense. The solution we are dealing with is nonsense. Do the devs play the game?

What would be really awesome is if you jump off a cliff when someone crit rushes you and they follow you down, connecting in mid air.

DaveMoeDee

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

I hate the fact that you can't walk or sprint if facing a larger group.
You start running and everyone spams their gap closers on you, making it nearly impossible to get forward at all.
Ambush states that it roots, which is okay, but why a silence? Why do other gap closers silence and root me before they hit?
Sometimes it's helpful cause you know when to dodge, but what about Magicka users who are not really able to dodge everytime someone decides to use a gap closer.

Because sorcs could bolt escape and some guy at zos thought it would be smart for gapclosers to root and silence. It was not that much of an issue before the dodgeroll nerf because dodging was actually the only thing you could do while ppl were spamming gapclosers.

That is actually not bad behavior in that situation. Just doesn't make sense in most scenarios.

Ezareth

WTB a PvP Dev on the Combat team. Eric may be the man when it comes to PvE ideas but things like this just show how green he is on the battlefield.

I had a guy hitting me around rocks and trees with invasion last night, I knew I was in the clear, couldn't see him in LoS and then suddenly I'm just stopped and I immediately roll dodge because I know what's coming. Bolt escape a few more times, get LoS and same thing. Totally ridiculous design.

OdinForge

I agree, this is hurting more than it needs.

Minno

Ezareth wrote: »

WTB a PvP Dev on the Combat team. Eric may be the man when it comes to PvE ideas but things like this just show how green he is on the battlefield.

I had a guy hitting me around rocks and trees with invasion last night, I knew I was in the clear, couldn't see him in LoS and then suddenly I'm just stopped and I immediately roll dodge because I know what's coming. Bolt escape a few more times, get LoS and same thing. Totally ridiculous design.

I'm thinking a mock dev vs dev vs dev battle in Cyro is needed.
Dev recruit top tier players/streamers for each side.

Then they test the entire pvp gameplay. Record it and review it.
Have a bullet list of player concerns, list of proposed changes and get a revision onto the PTS after orsinium.

They can do the same for PVE to make sure all changes to either system doesn't harm the other.

Keep it pure and filter the fluff out.

Maulkin

Ezareth wrote: »

WTB a PvP Dev on the Combat team. Eric may be the man when it comes to PvE ideas but things like this just show how green he is on the battlefield.

I had a guy hitting me around rocks and trees with invasion last night, I knew I was in the clear, couldn't see him in LoS and then suddenly I'm just stopped and I immediately roll dodge because I know what's coming. Bolt escape a few more times, get LoS and same thing. Totally ridiculous design.

I think you are being very courteous and polite when you are calling him simply "green". I have used many colourful adjectives on TS to describe him and his decisions on combat mechanics. All much harsher than "green".

hammayolettuce

Ezareth wrote: »

WTB a PvP Dev on the Combat team. Eric may be the man when it comes to PvE ideas but things like this just show how green he is on the battlefield.

I had a guy hitting me around rocks and trees with invasion last night, I knew I was in the clear, couldn't see him in LoS and then suddenly I'm just stopped and I immediately roll dodge because I know what's coming. Bolt escape a few more times, get LoS and same thing. Totally ridiculous design.

I always look back at the angryjoe review of this game when it pops up on my youtube and say to myself, look how much they have fixed pve and how much they have ruined pvp when watching it.

Maulkin

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

I hate the fact that you can't walk or sprint if facing a larger group.
You start running and everyone spams their gap closers on you, making it nearly impossible to get forward at all.
Ambush states that it roots, which is okay, but why a silence? Why do other gap closers silence and root me before they hit?
Sometimes it's helpful cause you know when to dodge, but what about Magicka users who are not really able to dodge everytime someone decides to use a gap closer.

Because sorcs could bolt escape and some guy at zos thought it would be smart for gapclosers to root and silence. It was not that much of an issue before the dodgeroll nerf because dodging was actually the only thing you could do while ppl were spamming gapclosers.

That is actually not bad behavior in that situation. Just doesn't make sense in most scenarios.

It doesn't make sense in that scenario either. If they can change the pathing of projectiles to follow you after you streak/ambush/run/whatever, why can't they do the same with the pathing of the player?

Why must I stay rooted and silenced with no defence? It's not only that I can't Streak. When I get rooted and know there's a charge coming I can't even apply a shield. And if there's a projectile or two in the air going after me, that will be the death of me and I had no chance to defend myself.

The only thing you can do is block or roll dodge. And some charges like Templar's Toppling Charge completely ignore roll-dodge so they will knock you down mid-dodge and then you have to spend stamina to CC break and you are still on the same freaking spot with 80% of stamina gone and roll-dodge still on cooldown.

And also half the charges have knockdowns or immobilise or snare effects added to them. Which is why players keep saying that when you are chased and the charges start, you can't freaking move any more.

It's beyond ridiculous.

Legedric

Same goes for Immovable

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

WTB a PvP Dev on the Combat team. Eric may be the man when it comes to PvE ideas but things like this just show how green he is on the battlefield.

I had a guy hitting me around rocks and trees with invasion last night, I knew I was in the clear, couldn't see him in LoS and then suddenly I'm just stopped and I immediately roll dodge because I know what's coming. Bolt escape a few more times, get LoS and same thing. Totally ridiculous design.

I think you are being very courteous and polite when you are calling him simply "green". I have used many colourful adjectives on TS to describe him and his decisions on combat mechanics. All much harsher than "green".

Oh we all are in the same boat, believe me...
You could easily start thinking he has a good reason not to have an official account on these forums.

Galalin

The minimum range is definitely the issue here... you should not be able to spam a gap closer at point blank range cause the target to be rooted

DK SCRUB OUT

Stikato

Love my gap closer, and agree with the OP.

Ishammael

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Worst bug (feature?) in the game right now.

It's bad but there is some stiff competition for that coveted spot.

Huehuehuehuehue

*insert bad puns and "she said" jokes*

Hahahahha

Valindor Magnus

I guess I'm the only one who likes this, when someone gap closes me and I stop walking I immediately know to react. If anything I feel it's helped me be able to react to them more than it hurts me. Yeah ambush spamming NBs are annoying but there are things I would rather zos focus on this. If anything I would just like ambush and lotus fan to not have additional affects other then the gap closer and damage.

Derra

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

WTB a PvP Dev on the Combat team. Eric may be the man when it comes to PvE ideas but things like this just show how green he is on the battlefield.

I had a guy hitting me around rocks and trees with invasion last night, I knew I was in the clear, couldn't see him in LoS and then suddenly I'm just stopped and I immediately roll dodge because I know what's coming. Bolt escape a few more times, get LoS and same thing. Totally ridiculous design.

I think you are being very courteous and polite when you are calling him simply "green". I have used many colourful adjectives on TS to describe him and his decisions on combat mechanics. All much harsher than "green".

He has no idea what he´s doing when it comes to pvp. I´d quote lasto on him but the forums are what i´m enjoying about eso the most as of late

Teargrants

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

I guess I'm the only one who likes this, when someone gap closes me and I stop walking I immediately know to react. If anything I feel it's helped me be able to react to them more than it hurts me. Yeah ambush spamming NBs are annoying but there are things I would rather zos focus on this. If anything I would just like ambush and lotus fan to not have additional affects other then the gap closer and damage.

The problem is when it's multiple people spaming gap closers and constantly silencing you.

Valindor Magnus

Teargrants wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

I guess I'm the only one who likes this, when someone gap closes me and I stop walking I immediately know to react. If anything I feel it's helped me be able to react to them more than it hurts me. Yeah ambush spamming NBs are annoying but there are things I would rather zos focus on this. If anything I would just like ambush and lotus fan to not have additional affects other then the gap closer and damage.

The problem is when it's multiple people spaming gap closers and constantly silencing you.

Yeah I understand this and it's definitely annoying but what's gonna change it other than removing it completely? I mean if you add a minimal distance the skill needs to use it then it may solve part of the issue but if you get multiple NBs jumping you with ambush and you are own your own you are pretty much screwed whether they can spam that or not.

Ezareth

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

I guess I'm the only one who likes this, when someone gap closes me and I stop walking I immediately know to react. If anything I feel it's helped me be able to react to them more than it hurts me. Yeah ambush spamming NBs are annoying but there are things I would rather zos focus on this. If anything I would just like ambush and lotus fan to not have additional affects other then the gap closer and damage.

The problem is when it's multiple people spaming gap closers and constantly silencing you.

Yeah I understand this and it's definitely annoying but what's gonna change it other than removing it completely? I mean if you add a minimal distance the skill needs to use it then it may solve part of the issue but if you get multiple NBs jumping you with ambush and you are own your own you are pretty much screwed whether they can spam that or not.

Well he said it was done to allow players to catch sorcs. They've pretty much hobbled the mobility of the perma-bolting sorcs now so it seems to me they should just reverse the change. I can keep up with sorcs by Perma-sprinting on my night blade...no need for a gap closer stun.

Valindor Magnus

Ezareth wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

I guess I'm the only one who likes this, when someone gap closes me and I stop walking I immediately know to react. If anything I feel it's helped me be able to react to them more than it hurts me. Yeah ambush spamming NBs are annoying but there are things I would rather zos focus on this. If anything I would just like ambush and lotus fan to not have additional affects other then the gap closer and damage.

The problem is when it's multiple people spaming gap closers and constantly silencing you.

Yeah I understand this and it's definitely annoying but what's gonna change it other than removing it completely? I mean if you add a minimal distance the skill needs to use it then it may solve part of the issue but if you get multiple NBs jumping you with ambush and you are own your own you are pretty much screwed whether they can spam that or not.

Well he said it was done to allow players to catch sorcs. They've pretty much hobbled the mobility of the perma-bolting sorcs now so it seems to me they should just reverse the change. I can keep up with sorcs by Perma-sprinting on my night blade...no need for a gap closer stun.

I feel like since there is a server delay, albeit a fairly small one, in combat that the pause you get when being gap closed gives time for the recipient to react before taking the damage, many a time have I been gap closed and been able to dodge roll then either mist form bolt escape or cloak and mitigate all the damage before the assailant gets his burst off. I've gotten out of range from a mass hysteria after a nightblade ambushed me many times because of this little snare I get. That being said it should only apply once within say like 3-5 seconds, something like cc immunity.

Teargrants

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

I guess I'm the only one who likes this, when someone gap closes me and I stop walking I immediately know to react. If anything I feel it's helped me be able to react to them more than it hurts me. Yeah ambush spamming NBs are annoying but there are things I would rather zos focus on this. If anything I would just like ambush and lotus fan to not have additional affects other then the gap closer and damage.

The problem is when it's multiple people spaming gap closers and constantly silencing you.

Yeah I understand this and it's definitely annoying but what's gonna change it other than removing it completely? I mean if you add a minimal distance the skill needs to use it then it may solve part of the issue but if you get multiple NBs jumping you with ambush and you are own your own you are pretty much screwed whether they can spam that or not.

The root + silence are 2 separate effects, they could start by removing the silence and just keeping the root while working on a permanent solution - ie. allowing gap closers to continue travel to target if target moves out of range after activation.