v2.2 BwB is on the way!

mcurley

Who else is excited for the new and improved (IMO) battle leveling system to be implemented into BwB?

As much fun as it is to run around right now wearing 7pcs of light armor and still maintaining 19kish spell resistance and 15kish physical resistance, I am looking forward to broadening my horizons and implementing actual theory to builds other than just "keep up your buffs".

Questions for others who are preparing for v2.2:

Do you think the new system will breath life into BwB?
-I certainly hope so. There are so many low level sets that can now be utilized. That should lead to some great build diversity... although I do worry that some cookie-cutter builds will reign supreme.

What are you looking forward to most?
-Picking out the squishies in battle and wrecking their life. Everyone having the same base stats right now makes it impossible to know who is tough based on looks alone. With v2.2, if I see you running around in a robe you will be my target.

What are you going to miss (if anything)?
-The affordability. I'm going to struggle to afford to keep updating my gear as I level my heros. It was nice being able to buy one set for all 40 levels but I guess we have to take the bad with the good.

Alucardo

I think it's going to be great. I've been looking forward to gear actually meaning something for a long time in BWB. The fact I can get 41k health without distributing a single point into that pool is just ridiculous. Of course that means my escapes from zergs is going to be less glamorous, but hey, if it means all the points I throw in stam mean something more then let's go for it.
I'm looking forward to taking revenge on those sorcs that streaked around with huge health pools, high mag and mag regen. My SB+evil hunter is ready.
I will miss the max health, for sure. Because we had it for so long it will take some adapting, but I'm sure we'll get used to it. At the moment it's just too easy to jump into a fight and yolo - that will be a thing of the past. You'll need to be more careful.
I'll also miss my gold. At the moment you can just swag it with low level gear and not even improve it. No longer will you be able to get away with that unless you want to be even squishier. Still, I'm looking forward to this update!

SneaK

What is happening? Can you share the link or point me in the right direction to read up on the changes?

mcurley

@SneaK There really isn't much information posted about it but this is a good thread with some tests.

Preliminary Battle Leveling Testing

Basically they are revamping the entire Battle Leveling system to allow items and stat distribution to matter. All set bonuses and all skills now affect your stats.

JamilaRaj

I have no idea how it will play out. Though, judging from the fact that BWB has been in steady decline for many months, I presume the patch will be awful (not counting usual slew of glitches).

SneaK

mcurley wrote: »

@SneaK There really isn't much information posted about it but this is a good thread with some tests.

Preliminary Battle Leveling Testing

Basically they are revamping the entire Battle Leveling system to allow items and stat distribution to matter. All set bonuses and all skills now affect your stats.

Really cool, and kudos to the OP of that great thread.

Valencer

Hope it doesnt mean we'll need to craft new gear every few levels. One of my favorite things about non-vet used to be that you don't need to constantly worry so much about gear. If I can just pick some sets I like at lvl 10 and just stick to those all the way to 50 without losing power, that would be great.

Still need to do my research though, so maybe I will in fact have to be at the crafting station every 5 levels or so...

At the end of the day, I'm hoping it helps fix the current zergfest (seeing how people have smaller health pools and can actually spec for damage)

Mauz

Seems they just scale up the stats gained by attribute puts and gear on top of a set of base stats. Is it linear on the total values or does it scale differently with stats from different sources?

To be honest, this whole DLC seems to be designed around my play style. Solo player instances, catch up system, cp cap, new solo quest area, new battle leveling system so that I can continue to play my vet out toons using a decent build. If I could write a wish list for this game this patch notes would cover most of it. ZOS wants player like me to join their business model

Only concern I have is that ppl like me are getting another advantage to new players in addition to cps. I have access to high quality enhancers, I can craft all kind of sets, I can afford to buy set items I need and have enough mats in my bank to craft new twink gear for ages. Even every 5 level. And I understand game mechanics and can theory craft a optimized build around my sets and stats. New players don't.

But I don't think it'll go live like this or at least last for long. The stats on the screenshots are by far superior the the ones on my VR15. Ppl will complain that they've the right to beat low level toons cause they believe simple time played must result in superiority.

Alucardo

JamilaRaj wrote: »

I have no idea how it will play out. Though, judging from the fact that BWB has been in steady decline for many months, I presume the patch will be awful (not counting usual slew of glitches).

Glad to see that positive attitude! Damn man, did someone crap in your cereal this morning or something?

Alucardo

Valencer wrote: »

Hope it doesnt mean we'll need to craft new gear every few levels. One of my favorite things about non-vet used to be that you don't need to constantly worry so much about gear. If I can just pick some sets I like at lvl 10 and just stick to those all the way to 50 without losing power, that would be great.

Still need to do my research though, so maybe I will in fact have to be at the crafting station every 5 levels or so...

At the end of the day, I'm hoping it helps fix the current zergfest (seeing how people have smaller health pools and can actually spec for damage)

Yeah it seems you will. The level and quality of your gear will play a role in your overall stats. You'll no longer be able to get away wearing level 10 gear as a level 50 - well, you can if you want, but you won't be very useful.
Basically, we'll need to take care of ourselves just as much as a non-battle levelled person would. Going to be annoying at first because we were handed everything on a silver platter, but I think it's a good and well needed change.
While there are downsides, there are upsides too, like every set piece and non-percantage stats will actually mean something.
Anyway, I'm off to farm some CPs for more of an advantage. See you in BWB!

mcurley

@Mauz I was thinking new players would have a hard time gearing up as well since they don't have stockpiles of crafting mats or gold yet... then I went around and checked out the different guild vendors. You can buy nearly every set piece available for right around 200g (on pc anyway). The green quality may be limiting but according to the tests I've seen, item quality plays a much smaller role than item level in the new system.

There will definitely be some people running purple or better gear in BwB but for the most part I think people will just use what they can easily afford from vendors. Not to mention there is a plethora of crafters out there willing to make gear for relatively cheap donations and many will even do it for free if you provide the mats.

I do see this changing up the zerg some in BwB. It will be much easier to solo out squishy targets... not to mention a lot of people will put no time into theory crafting and their builds will be hilariously bad. This change will definitely help a small group of solid and organized players to overcome much larger numbers than they can right now.

Now... if only they would do something about CPs in non-vet PvP. My 58 just isn't going to cut it anymore and I can't grind my way to the cap when I spend almost all of my time in Cyrodiil. Just seems silly to have a veteran progression system implemented into non-veteran pvp campaign... but overall I'm definitely looking forward to v2.2 BwB.

SneaK

Valencer wrote: »

Hope it doesnt mean we'll need to craft new gear every few levels. One of my favorite things about non-vet used to be that you don't need to constantly worry so much about gear. If I can just pick some sets I like at lvl 10 and just stick to those all the way to 50 without losing power, that would be great.

Still need to do my research though, so maybe I will in fact have to be at the crafting station every 5 levels or so...

At the end of the day, I'm hoping it helps fix the current zergfest (seeing how people have smaller health pools and can actually spec for damage)

From the pictures, it seems the biggest change is going to be less health, which is great. I would imagine you'll be able to get away with swapping gear every 10-15 levels in non-vet. No idea how vet1-13 gear will shake out though.

SturgeHammer

My guess is that the new battle leveling will shake things up, maybe get some players interested in non-vet pvp again. However, The champion point catch up system is going to take a toll on player retention in BWB. Currently, new players are able to come to BWB for a good pvp experience independent of the grind associated with becoming competitive in vet pvp. After 2.2, this grind will be significantly shorter and more players will chose that route instead of returning to BWB.

Mjollo

Blackwater was in desperate need of changes for some time now so I am looking forward to the next update.

JamilaRaj

But does it need this change? Make a list of top 3 peeves in the noob campaign and ask yourself which of them is this change going to fix.

Mauz

mcurley wrote: »

I do see this changing up the zerg some in BwB. It will be much easier to solo out squishy targets... not to mention a lot of people will put no time into theory crafting and their builds will be hilariously bad. This change will definitely help a small group of solid and organized players to overcome much larger numbers than they can right now.

That was exactly what I meant. I really do not claim to be the best player but the last thing I needed in BwB was another buff against ppl I nuke anyway. The same is for organized players. They dont need a buff, they are strong enough. If 20 newbies siege a keep they deserve to have a success in a campaign designed for them. They dont deserve to be destroyed by 3 ppl with CP cap and maxed out builds and gear. Cause it's the noob campaign which should be more forgiving in my oppinion.

At least half of the players in BwB have 0 CP and most of them have in addition no idea what they are doing. With 58 you might have less than the average but still more than the median.

Just change the dmg back to 80%, remove all CPs and it would be perfect for everyone.

JamilaRaj

Mauz wrote: »

mcurley wrote: »

I do see this changing up the zerg some in BwB. It will be much easier to solo out squishy targets... not to mention a lot of people will put no time into theory crafting and their builds will be hilariously bad. This change will definitely help a small group of solid and organized players to overcome much larger numbers than they can right now.

That was exactly what I meant. I really do not claim to be the best player but the last thing I needed in BwB was another buff against ppl I nuke anyway. The same is for organized players. They dont need a buff, they are strong enough. If 20 newbies siege a keep they deserve to have a success in a campaign designed for them. They dont deserve to be destroyed by 3 ppl with CP cap and maxed out builds and gear. Cause it's the noob campaign which should be more forgiving in my oppinion.

The biggest draw of the noob campaign used to be the exact opposite however. That it was unforgiving and players were mercilessly punished for the slighest mistake, for exposing too much, for just stepping into red circles, for not CC breaking NPC eclipse (which could take out bystanders as well), for not not killing a tower mage before capping, for ignoring archers etc.
It was popular even among non-noobs precisely because it was a game of skill, not numbers, gear or metagame outside of the campaign (no CPs then btw).

What you call for, and what we in part have already, is the idiot campaign, where numbers win no matter what.

Alucardo

I will be non-existent on BWB for the first few months after the update. I'll be farming all those beautiful CPs with the catch-up mechanic, then return to show ZOS how stupid it is to allow CPs in a non-vet campaign.

Asmael

I'm not getting my hopes up too much, as much as I hate to say it, @JamilaRaj is probably right on this matter.

I'll see how it goes, depending on overall mitigation, resources and zerg factor.

The current state is still extremely depressing. Horrible stamina management for magicka builds, NB and stam sorcs everywhere, WB spammer everywhere, zergs everywhere...

I surprised myself to see a dude with a 2-handed sword running away from me, and thinking "why doesn't he just cloak?". Right, he was a DK. It has reached THAT point.

I rerolled a magicka Sorc with IC, and have been doing pretty well, winning quite a lot of 1vX, but I might as well pick a class I enjoy playing instead of a FOTM. I feel really bad for people playing DKs and temps solo because they are downright terrible in 1vX in BwB.

I'll see how average health goes, and whether or not sieges are still meh. How they get better...

I'd pick 1.6 over whatever they're throwing at us right now.

Alucardo

Asmael wrote: »

I feel really bad for people playing DKs and temps solo because they are downright terrible in 1vX in BwB.

This is the sad truth. I've mained DK for pretty much my entire BWB experience, and right now I'm basically limited to 1v1. I won a 1v3 ONCE and I nearly fell off my chair. Other than that we can make them work for the kill with decent resource management and resistance, but it's just going to be a slow inevitable death.
Templars I've seen in 1vX situations on BWB just seem to spam BoL until they run their magicka dry then die in seconds.

Valencer

Those 1.4k whips... DK master race

I'm not the best DK, but I used to do well enough on all my BwB DKs. Nowadays it really does take aeons to kill anyone as a DK and I'm really feeling it on my newest one. DK burst was already bad pre-IC, but now I cant really burst anyone down so fighting multiple enemies is just impossible unless they have no idea what theyre doing and dont heal up.

I doubt the new battle levelling fixes everything, but there's some things that look promising: 1) far smaller health pools. 2) ability to spec for more damage (more burst) . If siege damage becomes more effective too (at the very least because of smaller health pools) it could also help mitigate the current total zerg meta.

laksikus

i still hate my dk.
hated him in 1.6 hasnt changed yet^^

Mauz

JamilaRaj wrote: »

What you call for, and what we in part have already, is the idiot campaign, where numbers win no matter what.

Call the new players idiots if you like. I dont. This campaign is for them not for some frustrated vets who want to dominate everything. An organized group of 5 ppl can today wipe 15-20 unorganized noobs with ease if they use their brain. What do you want? Wiping 50 ppl with a group of 5? A balanced game mechanic must not allow such kind of gameplay.

There must be a natural limit what a single player is able to do. The most obvious way would be to limit resources. Right now its done like this. With the next patch this isnt the case anymore. A reasonable limit would be for me 1v3 or maybe 1v4. Otherwise a few ppl start to dominate everything. And thats not good even if these few ppl call that fun.

Am I really the only one here for whom balance is something which is leaving everyone means even noob players the possibility to have a success? I mean for what is this campaign then advertised with "for beginners"??

mcurley

Mauz wrote: »

Just change the dmg back to 80%, remove all CPs and it would be perfect for everyone.

The way it is right now on live gives almost no diversity at all based on build... even with CPs. I definitely want CPs removed from BwB but I can't wait for the new changes to Battle Leveling.

I understand why people are saying DKs are miserable to play right now and NBs are OP.

I play a mag NB in all light armor. With Mirage, Shadow Barrier, and a nirn Fire Staff I have more physical and spell resistance than most players, I get 20% evasion, and I can cloak after every single attack without having to worry about ever running out of magicka... oh yea not to mention my 38k health pool. I get to play fully offensive (aside from casting Mirage) while being fully defensive and I don't even bother slotting a heal most of the time because I can escape any sticky situation with efficient purge + cloak.

Since my build has been finished I have only run into 1 hero who I was not able to take out with relative ease on my own... this should never be possible. It has been a blast being able to massacre players/groups while being invisible 95% of the time, but it is just plain stupid that I don't have to sacrifice anything at all to optimize my build right now.

These new changes will give us all a chance to find our favorite balance between damage, mitigation, and sustainability.and then form a build around that.

New players will still be able to hold their own as long as they do some research and put some thought into their builds. The ones who go into Cyrodiil with their PvE builds will still likely get massacred in the same fashion they do now. I don't think these changes favor either new or experienced players, I just think it will make it more fun and diversified overall.

JamilaRaj

Mauz wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

What you call for, and what we in part have already, is the idiot campaign, where numbers win no matter what.

Call the new players idiots if you like. I dont. This campaign is for them not for some frustrated vets who want to dominate everything. An organized group of 5 ppl can today wipe 15-20 unorganized noobs with ease if they use their brain. What do you want? Wiping 50 ppl with a group of 5? A balanced game mechanic must not allow such kind of gameplay.

Let's make one thing clear: genuine noobs are rare and have always been. ZOS put little thought into creating BWB, they simply took regular vet campaign (with OP VR5 guards), restricted access to levels 10-49, hid it well before noobs in AvA GUI and that was it. As a tutorial campaign it did not work, it was way too hard. On the flip side, this accidental ruleset with weak PCs, strong NPCs and high siege damage proved to be intriguing and the noob campaign far superior to what vet campaigns had to offer. That was something noobs ironically could not recognize and appreciate and often deliberately went to vet campaigns to see "real PVP", but vets could and moved in opposite direction.
Designing BWB to accomodate players who neither were there, are there or will be there (unless ZOS e.g. drops box fee and even then it will be just temporary spike) is just bad, in fact it is worse than ZOS's apparent non-design by side effects.
Besides, I did not call new players idiots, but you act as though a new player was an idiot. Very similar to assumption that a console player is an idiot that needs a "game" that plays itself (or at best throws "buy now" button at player every once in a while) to have fun.

laksikus

Mauz wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

What you call for, and what we in part have already, is the idiot campaign, where numbers win no matter what.

Call the new players idiots if you like. I dont. This campaign is for them not for some frustrated vets who want to dominate everything. An organized group of 5 ppl can today wipe 15-20 unorganized noobs with ease if they use their brain. What do you want? Wiping 50 ppl with a group of 5? A balanced game mechanic must not allow such kind of gameplay.

thats simply said not true.
that may be true if you find a group of 20 players thats in cyro for thr first time and have no healer.
put 1-2 player in there that has purge and one healer and you cant stop the zerg with 5.

on the other hand it should totally be possible to stop a zerg of 50 with only 5 people, if those 50 are stupid enough to stack under siege or in an aoe.

in 1.6 you could do exactly that with siege. with siege and oil you could kill anyone that was stupid enough to stay inside the red circle. (and even every noob should get it that you die in there after he died the first time, so no excuse here that "they are noobs")
2 fire ballistas and one meatbag were devastating if not purged and healed. now it doesnt matter, cos you cant shoot a second time before the zerg stomps you, and one shot doesnt kill them by far

show me a way to kill 20 people in bwb that get constant healing and purge?
bah, what am i talking about. half siege damage, healer is enough.


the level and temper are even now giving better stats.
so it isnt really an excuse for not wanting to see the new battle leveling.
I am sure it will be better than now, where zerginess is everything and strategy or forethinking nothing

raviour

gonna be great to have options, standardization is boring...

raviour

bwb is most balanced server even in 1.7, only luci and avenic are exploit..

JamilaRaj

Sooo....how's the update?

mcurley

Mixed reviews all across the board so far.

I've geared out 2 heros with blue quality gear and it's been smooth sailing on my end... but people are complaining that the time to kill is too low now. Perhaps heavy armor is the key.

Alucardo

mcurley wrote: »

Mixed reviews all across the board so far.

I've geared out 2 heros with blue quality gear and it's been smooth sailing on my end... but people are complaining that the time to kill is too low now. Perhaps heavy armor is the key.

Yeah, in a few weeks I think BwB will consist of everyone decked out with full heavy armour spamming crit rush and wrecking blow on stam sorcs and DKs.
Just at a guess, of course.