Axes - change bleed damage to increased critical damage

Waylander

Title says it all. I want to see more great axes and hand axes gracing stamina builds of cyrodiil and pve alike.

We all know bleeds and dots are effectively useless in PvP due to purge, cleanse, cloak and damage shields.

In PvE axe dots don't stack so it refreshes without getting the bleed unless you don't light or heavy attack often.

Simplest change I can see to make one weapon line actually used would be to increase the critical damage granted by Axes. This should fit with immersion too, if I critically injure you with a great axe, it should do more damage!

Zos, make this happen.

Elder_III

They either need something different then Bleeding or the Bleed mechanic needs to be changed. Sadly there's minimal point in using Axes vs any of the other melee options.

timidobserver

Good idea.

Levo18

Agreed they need some improvement. I love the look of axes in every TES game but they are So useless in pvp it makes me sad

Spearshard

Ah man, that would be amazing, and actually add diversity. Bleed is so weak as to be unnoticeable. But given zos logic, and the fact this is a useful change, probably won't happen. Which is a shame, this is genius.

Some_Jerk

+1
great suggestion

Conquers

As a mighty orc, i would love to swing a mighty axe, but it is just so impractical with how weak bleed is (and how constructs and skeletons are immune). i just use greatsword for that extra damage bonus. Mace is fine imo, i wouldnt use it.

+1

UltimaJoe777

So you want to give axes what daggers have and daggers what axes have? No, bleeding better suits axes.

Conquers

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So you want to give axes what daggers have and daggers what axes have? No, bleeding better suits axes.

shouldn't daggers make more sense with +crit chance, or +weapon speed?

Some_Jerk

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So you want to give axes what daggers have and daggers what axes have? No, bleeding better suits axes.

No one said anything about daggers here. I think the suggestion is that daggers = critical chance (remain the same), axes = critical damage.

UltimaJoe777

s_tibob16_ESO wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So you want to give axes what daggers have and daggers what axes have? No, bleeding better suits axes.

No one said anything about daggers here. I think the suggestion is that daggers = critical chance (remain the same), axes = critical damage.

Yeah and they won't make 2 weapons do the same thing. That takes away from diversity.

Conquers wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So you want to give axes what daggers have and daggers what axes have? No, bleeding better suits axes.

shouldn't daggers make more sense with +crit chance, or +weapon speed?

Weapon Speed = Weighted Trait. I understand why you believe this should be though since it was the fastest-swinging weapon in TESV: Skyrim.

talon_vib14_ESO

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

s_tibob16_ESO wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So you want to give axes what daggers have and daggers what axes have? No, bleeding better suits axes.

No one said anything about daggers here. I think the suggestion is that daggers = critical chance (remain the same), axes = critical damage.

Yeah and they won't make 2 weapons do the same thing. That takes away from diversity.

Conquers wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So you want to give axes what daggers have and daggers what axes have? No, bleeding better suits axes.

shouldn't daggers make more sense with +crit chance, or +weapon speed?

Weapon Speed = Weighted Trait. I understand why you believe this should be though since it was the fastest-swinging weapon in TESV: Skyrim.

\

Crit chance is how often you crit. Crit damage is how much dmg your crits do when you land one...not the same thing.

UltimaJoe777

talon_vib14_ESO wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

s_tibob16_ESO wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So you want to give axes what daggers have and daggers what axes have? No, bleeding better suits axes.

No one said anything about daggers here. I think the suggestion is that daggers = critical chance (remain the same), axes = critical damage.

Yeah and they won't make 2 weapons do the same thing. That takes away from diversity.

Conquers wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So you want to give axes what daggers have and daggers what axes have? No, bleeding better suits axes.

shouldn't daggers make more sense with +crit chance, or +weapon speed?

Weapon Speed = Weighted Trait. I understand why you believe this should be though since it was the fastest-swinging weapon in TESV: Skyrim.

\

Crit chance is how often you crit. Crit damage is how much dmg your crits do when you land one...not the same thing.

Pardon me for missing that then but nevertheless take a look at Skyrim: Axes got bleed damage in that game too. Likewise, Maces are doing in this game what they did in Skyrim as well effect-wise. Swords, however, were changed to Damage in general instead of Critical Damage.

Malanor

At least do bleed effects affecting undead and mechanisms, otherwise the effect of master dagger is a joke.

UltimaJoe777

Malanor wrote: »

At least do bleed effects affecting undead and mechanisms, otherwise the effect of master dagger is a joke.

I'm sure they'll get right on that, along with decapitation and splitting skulls in 2... like a pudding.

dsalter

just so people realise, OP means axes give crit multiplier while daggers retain crit chance.

Torug_gro-Yak

/sign

Right now, nobody is using axes for damage because the passive provided to them is far worse than maces/swords/daggers. There is no Situation, where it can shine.

As partially mentioned, the problems are:
- too many immune Mobs to bleed (but fire elementals take dmg from fire attacks?...)
- dmg shield Problems
- reapplying the DoT resets the tick timer
- Overall dmg is too low to fit the %-Bonus of the other weapon types (scaling)

I like the suggestion of a bonus to Crit-Dmg. Numbers have to be balanced, ofc.

So, as a melee Orsimer since Beta, I would really appreciate the long required change to the axe passives.

ALSO, it would be great, if the axes were a little bit bigger scaled... many of them seems just tiny.

UltimaJoe777

Torug_gro-Yak wrote: »

/sign

Right now, nobody is using axes for damage because the passive provided to them is far worse than maces/swords/daggers. There is no Situation, where it can shine.

As partially mentioned, the problems are:
- too many immune Mobs to bleed (but fire elementals take dmg from fire attacks?...)
- dmg shield Problems
- reapplying the DoT resets the tick timer
- Overall dmg is too low to fit the %-Bonus of the other weapon types (scaling)

I like the suggestion of a bonus to Crit-Dmg. Numbers have to be balanced, ofc.

So, as a melee Orsimer since Beta, I would really appreciate the long required change to the axe passives.

ALSO, it would be great, if the axes were a little bit bigger scaled... many of them seems just tiny.

You can correct your statement then because I use a Battle Axe on my Dragonknight who happens to be built as a melee fighter and I also use Dual Axes on my Werewolf for one of his weapon sets when he isn't in Werewolf form.

Just because the meta isn't using something doesn't mean nobody is.

Kronuxx

Torug_gro-Yak wrote: »

/sign

Right now, nobody is using axes for damage because the passive provided to them is far worse than maces/swords/daggers. There is no Situation, where it can shine.

As partially mentioned, the problems are:
- too many immune Mobs to bleed (but fire elementals take dmg from fire attacks?...)
- dmg shield Problems
- reapplying the DoT resets the tick timer
- Overall dmg is too low to fit the %-Bonus of the other weapon types (scaling)

I like the suggestion of a bonus to Crit-Dmg. Numbers have to be balanced, ofc.

So, as a melee Orsimer since Beta, I would really appreciate the long required change to the axe passives.

ALSO, it would be great, if the axes were a little bit bigger scaled... many of them seems just tiny.

This is so true. I always thought 2H battleaxes seemed tiny in my two hands compared to a greatsword or maul.

Torug_gro-Yak

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Torug_gro-Yak wrote: »

/sign

Right now, nobody is using axes for damage because the passive provided to them is far worse than maces/swords/daggers. There is no Situation, where it can shine.

As partially mentioned, the problems are:
- too many immune Mobs to bleed (but fire elementals take dmg from fire attacks?...)
- dmg shield Problems
- reapplying the DoT resets the tick timer
- Overall dmg is too low to fit the %-Bonus of the other weapon types (scaling)

I like the suggestion of a bonus to Crit-Dmg. Numbers have to be balanced, ofc.

So, as a melee Orsimer since Beta, I would really appreciate the long required change to the axe passives.

ALSO, it would be great, if the axes were a little bit bigger scaled... many of them seems just tiny.

You can correct your statement then because I use a Battle Axe on my Dragonknight who happens to be built as a melee fighter and I also use Dual Axes on my Werewolf for one of his weapon sets when he isn't in Werewolf form.

Just because the meta isn't using something doesn't mean nobody is.

Maybe my "nobody" is a Little bit exaggerated. But see it as a rhetorical medium!
Just the fact, that somebody (e.g. you) use this type of weapon, doesn't mean, that the Problem doesn't exist.

The stated Facts are actually true, nothing can change this. And btw. i don't like "meta". "Meta" just means, that there is an imbalance, that Forces performance-oriented Players to do things, they normally wouldn't (e.g. using swords/maces/daggers over axes)!
If a Player cares just a Little for how his character performs, and that SHOULD be the case in a Group Play oriented game, than there is no reason, to take an axe as DD. This is an imbalance which have to be addressed!

Btw. if im Tanking, I use axes Just because style and it doensn't matter.

Waylander

Daggers give increased crit chance

I want axes to do increased critical damage

The current bleed damage is worse than all three other choices and has been since beta.

@ZOS_GinaBruno can you pass this proposal onto the combat team or relevant devs?

lathbury

or splash damage like lightning staves

Panth141

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Torug_gro-Yak wrote: »

/sign

Right now, nobody is using axes for damage because the passive provided to them is far worse than maces/swords/daggers. There is no Situation, where it can shine.

As partially mentioned, the problems are:
- too many immune Mobs to bleed (but fire elementals take dmg from fire attacks?...)
- dmg shield Problems
- reapplying the DoT resets the tick timer
- Overall dmg is too low to fit the %-Bonus of the other weapon types (scaling)

I like the suggestion of a bonus to Crit-Dmg. Numbers have to be balanced, ofc.

So, as a melee Orsimer since Beta, I would really appreciate the long required change to the axe passives.

ALSO, it would be great, if the axes were a little bit bigger scaled... many of them seems just tiny.

You can correct your statement then because I use a Battle Axe on my Dragonknight who happens to be built as a melee fighter and I also use Dual Axes on my Werewolf for one of his weapon sets when he isn't in Werewolf form.

Just because the meta isn't using something doesn't mean nobody is.

Chill!

All that is being said here is that axes are underpowered due to their lackluster passive, and they have suggested a passive that is otherwise unused, or, as an alternative, making the current passive more useful.

I use a 1H axe for DW, simply because it's the agility weapon drop I got - I don't even notice the bleed, given the number of cleanses and immunities running around - why wouldn't you want to balance the axes with the other weapons?

Bhakura

+1 for crit damage on axes, my axe wielding 60% critchance shadow mundus khajit is gonna LOVE this

yes i wield a crappy axe, always loved axes over anything else, dont care if its bad, its aesthetics lol

EgoRush

This is a fantastic suggestion. Like Thief/Shadow Mundus, you'd have Dagger/Axe utility. I love it. They have failed consistently to address the bleed damage, why not try this instead?

Jeckll

I dont see a lot of good suggestions when browsing here, but this one is pretty nice. Good job, @Waylander .

Gilliamtherogue

100% this. Axes being bound to bleed damage will forever prevent them from being a viable option in usage compared to the other weapons. Moving them to a good, but not inherently overpowered stat would greatly increase their viability. By giving axes CHD you don't force builds into thinking they need to take it, but instead offer a strong contender for builds that focus more on crit than penetration or flat damage. I am behind this thread in full force.

Kahen40k

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Torug_gro-Yak wrote: »

/sign

Right now, nobody is using axes for damage because the passive provided to them is far worse than maces/swords/daggers. There is no Situation, where it can shine.

As partially mentioned, the problems are:
- too many immune Mobs to bleed (but fire elementals take dmg from fire attacks?...)
- dmg shield Problems
- reapplying the DoT resets the tick timer
- Overall dmg is too low to fit the %-Bonus of the other weapon types (scaling)

I like the suggestion of a bonus to Crit-Dmg. Numbers have to be balanced, ofc.

So, as a melee Orsimer since Beta, I would really appreciate the long required change to the axe passives.

ALSO, it would be great, if the axes were a little bit bigger scaled... many of them seems just tiny.

You can correct your statement then because I use a Battle Axe on my Dragonknight who happens to be built as a melee fighter and I also use Dual Axes on my Werewolf for one of his weapon sets when he isn't in Werewolf form.

Just because the meta isn't using something doesn't mean nobody is.

This is why we can't have nice things :'(

Anyway amazing idea, this change would make axes on pair with others weapon, lets hope ZOS listen this time.

Mettaricana

I agree imagining rocking two handed or dw axes with precise and crit wailing on things

Beltan3

This would be awesome. Plus magicka builds could also use axes!

willymchilybily

for me as much as i would like to say yes, I'm going to have to say No - its too OP. You probably wont see it till Orsinium but a new meta is coming. And boosting critical damage beyond: shadow(+12%), and precise strikes (+25%). is bad for PvP