Current Sorcerer Issues

Jar_Ek

Sorcerer Current Issues
This is an attempt to capture the current concerns / issues of the sorcerer community with regards to their class skill trees. This considers both magicka and stamina builds (however as I play a stamina sorcerer primarily I have a better insight into that build style).

The intention of this post is for sorcerers to be able to present their class concerns in a single location – I will try to keep the OP up to date with perceived issues.

If @zos would like to comment on any / all of these issues, I will include those comments in the OP.

If any non-sorcerer would like to comment… please try to keep it constructive and if you have specific issues with your own class then please create your own thread along the same lines… maybe we could end up with one per class!

TDLR: Here is a list of perceived class concerns, issues and suggestions for change. The suggestions are not all intended to be applied simultaneously – it is simply a list of suggestions for change.
Please read and comment.

Magicka PvE: Most Used Class Skills
DPS: Power Overload, Hardened Ward, Crystal Fragments, Liquid Lightning, Boundless Lightning, Bound Aegis – maybe Mages Fury, Power Surge
Tank: Hardened Ward, Boundless Lightning, Bound Aegis, Encase, Dark Deal – maybe Negate, Ball of Lightning
Healer: Empowered Ward, Boundless Lightning, Bound Aegis, Power Surge – maybe Crystal Fragments

Magicka PvE: Concerns
Toggle skills:
Number of toggles: Sorcerers have 2x summon toggles, 1xutility toggle; 1xultimate toggle
Inflexibility of toggles: Toggles must be slotted on all bars to avoid the toggle dropping
No active component: Toggle skills have no active components (i.e. only summon/de-summon)
Pet effectiveness: Lack of proper pet control, limited pet survivability, and limited pet damage
Effectiveness: Multiple slot cost vs effectiveness is poor

Sustainability of DPS at end-game:
End-game DPS vs bosses is heavily based on Overload damage
Sustained DPS without Overload is perceived to be relatively low? Is this still true?

Minimal support for healer playstyle:
One morph provides a minor mending buff and even that comes at a relatively high cost [33% less powerful shields than the other morph].
There are no other abilities that support healers within the sorcerer class – arguably Power Surge might be considered useful

Magicka PvP: Most Used Class Skills
DPS: Overload, Hardened Ward, Crystal Fragments/Blast, Boundless Lightning, Bound Aegis, Velocious Curse, Mages Fury, Bolt Escape, Power Surge,
Daedric Mines
Tank: As per DPS
Healer: As per DPS

Magicka PvP: Concerns
Lack of build diversity
PvP sorcerers almost universally use Hardened Ward, Crystal Fragments/Blast, Velocious Curse, Mages Fury, Bolt Escape, maybe Daedric Mines and then potentially shield stack and then use their role specific abilities (i.e. Force Shock for DPS, Restoration abilities for Healers, etc). There is little to no variation in the core skills used between Tank, Healer or DPS build for magicka sorcerers in PvP.

Pet builds in PvP are difficult to use as the pets are difficult to control / use.
Pets are still sometimes be visible when you are in stealth, can aggro random mobs [especially in IC], and can run off to attack random mobs – all of which are very bad in a PvP environment.
Also Pet damage and the level of threat the pet implies to players is low.

Overreliance on specific skills
Magicka Sorcerers are forced to rely heavily on Hardened Ward and/or Bolt Escape for survivability as there are a limited number of alternative options (Restoration Staff or Surge healing as reliance on CC does not equate to survival in PvP – Dark Exchange is not an effective survival tool on its own). Thus there is a concern with the shield breaker set which bypasses the class shield and the fact that the escape has been made increasingly expensive to use.

Stamina PvE: Most Used Class Skills
DPS: Overload, Thunderous Presence, Bound Armaments, Streak, Critical Surge
Tank: Overload, Boundless Lightning, Bound Armaments - maybe Streak or Ball of Lightning
Healer: Stamina healers are not viable.

Stamina PvE: Concerns
Synergy with passives:
There is very limited synergy with the class passives – energised, disintegrate (to some extent), exploitation, blood magic, persistence, rebate, expert summoner are of limited benefit as they primarily affect magicka based skills that are difficult (expensive) or ineffective (scale off magicka) for a stamina build to use. That is over ½ the class passives.

Lack of damaging stamina morphs:
There are no class stamina damaging morphs – unless you count Thunderous Presence which is a utility ability with a front-loaded DoT component

Survivability:
There are no survivability skills that support stamina builds other than Lightning Form (and arguably Critical Surge if you stack critical) as Conjured Ward (both morphs) scales with magicka and Bolt Escape is too expensive to use to escape for stamina builds. The class has no other effective defensive or healing abilities (Dark Deal is not effective due to the size and time for the heal to take effect)… this includes no effective defensive ultimates (Negate provides a stun which does not work vs a boss).

Lack of build diversity:
Due to the limited range of useful class skills, there is a lack of build diversity. The vast majority of stamina sorcerers end up with a 2H weapon either for Critical Charge (and hence a Surge heal), Wrecking Blow for damage, or Rally/Forward Mometum for healing (at least until they get Vigour).

Pet builds are not used by stamina sorcerers in general (except whilst levelling to 50) as they do not scale with stamina – the exception being the Clannfear which is occasionally used for the de-summon heal or as an off-tank (by tank builds).

Stamina PvP: Most Used Class Skills
DPS: Overload, Lightning Form, Bound Armaments, Streak, Critical Surge, Rune Prison
Tank: Overload, Boundless Lightning, Bound Armaments, Streak
Healer: Stamina healers are not viable.

Stamina PvP: Concerns
The issues with PvE are broadly replicated in PvP, but pets are not used at all as they suffer from the issues of both Magicka PvP and Stamina PvE users.

Lack of burst capability
Stamina builds have no class burst capabilities, making them class neutral with regards to damage and increasing their issues in PvP. This is in stark contrast to magicka builds who are very burst biased.

Concerns related to Class Passives
The class passives should provide benefit for a variety of builds, styles and roles – as well as help define the flavour of the class.

Energised
Issue:
This passive provides minimal benefit to non-magicka builds because the only abilities that benefit from the passive are magicka based and scaled – the exceptions being Thunderous Presence and Overload.
Suggestions:
Provide a stamina scaled damage morph for Mages Fury

Disintegrate
Issue:
This passive provides minimal benefit to non-magicka builds because the only abilities that benefit from the passive are magicka based and scaled – the exceptions being Thunderous Presence and Overload.
Suggestions:
Provide a stamina scaled damage morph for Mages Fury
Trigger off physical weapon attacks when Surge is active

Exploitation
Issue:
This passive is only provides a spell critical buff making it of little benefit to non-magicka builds. In earlier versions of the game it provided a weapon and critical buff for the caster.
Suggestions:
Modify such that the passive provides a group spell critical buff and a personal weapon critical buff – do the equivalent for all class based group buffs as appropriate.

Daedric Protection:
Issue: This passive provides limited support to stamina builds as only one morph of one skill is designed for stamina builds [Bound Armaments]. This provides a very limited choice for access to the buff for stamina builds.
Suggestions: Modify all pet summons such that the summoned pet scales with magicka or stamina.

Rebate:
Issue:
This passive only relates to ½ of the skill tree abilities [i.e. pet summons]
The magicka return on pet death is a fixed value and is too small for the cost of re-summoning, and does nothing for the re-summon cast time.
This passive provides little benefit to stamina builds as summoned pets [with the exception of the Atronach] only scale with magicka – making the inclusion of a pet unlikely for the majority of stamina builds [there is some logic in using a Clannfear for some roles].
Suggestions:
Increase the magicka return based on the time the pet has been summoned for, up to a significantly larger maximum [5x].
Cast time for a re-summon (50%) is reduced for a limited time (5s) after Pet death.
Combine this passive with the Expert Summoner passive and add a new passive that supports the other ½ of the skill tree (Expert Conjuror).
Modify all pet summons such that the summoned pet scales with magicka or stamina.

Expert Summoner:
Issue:
This passive only relates to ½ of the skill tree abilities [i.e. pet summons]
This passive provides little benefit to stamina builds as summoned pets [with the exception of the Atronach] only scale with magicka – making the inclusion of a pet unlikely for the majority of stamina builds [there is some logic in using a Clannfear for some roles].
Suggestions:
Modify all pet summons such that the summoned pet scales with magicka or stamina.
Combine this passive with the Rebate passive and add a new passive that supports the other ½ of the skill tree (Expert Conjuror)

Expert Conjuror:
This passive would provide a passive effect based on the use of the non-pet skills within the tree, or the slotting of non-pet skills.
Example effects could be:
Bound Armour provides a minor vitality (4/8%) buff whilst active.
Daedric Curse applies a minor DoT or debuff on the target until it explodes.
Increase Conjured Ward duration by 5/10% and strength of pet wards by 5/10%

Concerns related to Class Skills
In much the same way as the class passives, the active abilities should provide abilities that support a variety of builds, styles and roles – as well as help define the flavour of the class.

Mages Fury
Issues:
This ability is ineffective for stamina builds
Base damage is too low to use as a filler ability outside of Execute phase
Both morphs are relatively uninspiring and limited in scope
Suggestions:
Provide a stamina scaled morph (to synergise with Energised and Disintegrate) that is short / melee range.
Increase base damage, slightly reduce bonus execute damage (to keep overall damage in execute phase the same)

Lightning Splash:
Issues:
This ability is ineffective for stamina builds
Morphs provide limited / little real differentiation in ability
Suggestion:
Have one morph that is ground targeted (increased range/duration) and one morph that anchors to your target and moves with them.

Lightning Form:
Issues:
Thunderous Presence mobility boost is a little too short
Suggestion:
Increase the Thunderous Presence mobility boost slightly

Surge:
Issues:
Does not provide heals from all skills/abilities
does not provide heals from DoTs
does not provide heals from channels
does not provide heals from time-delayed abilities (i.e. Curse)
Does not work correctly against shields (provides a small flat heal)
Suggestion:
Allow surge to work with channels and time-delayed abilities (but not DoTs)
Allow surge to work with all abilities (AoE abilities only trigger it once)
Have surge provide a chance to activate Disintegrate from melee attacks whilst active
Remove surge cooldown
Ensure heals provided against shields are calculated off the potential critical damage, even if the shields do not take that damage

Bolt Escape
Issues:
Cost increases impact stamina builds disproportionally compared to magicka builds
Ball of Lightning morph projectile absorption duration is slightly too low
Suggestion:
Streak morph if it causes damage to an opponent has its costs reset when an attack is made in melee range (i.e. you streak in and hit a foe with a follow-on attack, then it resets cost)
Slightly increase Ball of Lightning duration

Overload
Bugs: Repeated fast light overload attacks or light overload attacks that are borderline overload medium attacks cause the skill to be bugged and only allow heavy overload attacks. Sprinting or dodge rolls sometimes reset this.
Issues:
No weapon abilities may be used from the overload bar – making it less effective for stamina builds as their major damage sources are weapon based
There is no stamina equivalent of the Energy morph
Skill bar does not return to normal when ultimate is reduced below the amount required for a single light attack
Does not scale well with stamina builds due to damage type (different champion point assignment, etc)
Weapon swap does not drop you out of overload.
Suggestions:
Provide a morph that charges your weapons with lightning and returns stamina. Weapon abilities may be used from the overload bar.

Crystal Shards
Issues:
This ability is of limited effectiveness for stamina builds
The ability is very obvious during the long cast and flight times
Suggestions:
Provide a stamina scaled morph (to synergise with Blood Magic) that is melee range and operates in a similar manner to crystal fragments (i.e. chance to be instantly cast).
Make the casting effect slightly less obvious

Encase:
Issues:
Ability is overly expensive
Shape of effect can be difficult to use
Too long a time delay between cast and effect occurring
Bug:
Does not correctly affect enemies within the stated area of effect – only affects a reduced area
Ability does not always seem to be cast / apply effects.
Suggestion:
Reduce magicka cost
Fix area of effect, placement and application of effect bugs
Have one morph that can be placed as a circular AoE (as per lightning splash)

Rune Prison
Issues:
Not aware of any
Suggestion:
N/A

Dark Deal:
Issue:
Cost to return ratio is too low compared to cast time
Suggestion:
Reduce cast time or allow animation clipping of ability

Daedric Mines
Issue:
Too expensive for effectiveness
This ability is ineffective for stamina builds
Tomb morph less effective / useful than Volcanic Rune
Ability has reduced effect against “boss” mobs
Suggestion:
Slightly reduce cost
Provide a stamina scaled morph (to synergise with Blood Magic).
Allow ability to provide some effect if a “boss” hits more than one mine
Change Tomb morph to create a single AoE mine, that has a 15m proximity detonation
Make all mines stealthed (visible with detection potions, mages light, etc)

Negate Magic
Issue:
Provides limited benefit to caster, especially in terms of defence against boss mobs (which are immune to the stun).
Suggestion:
Provide the caster (only) with a major protection buff whilst negate is active in Suppression Field morph

Summon Familiar:
Issues:
Does not scale with stamina
Does not scale with battle spirit correctly
Limited ability to control pets
Not effective enough given the relative cost of use [i.e. 2/3 slots used]
Limited active usage [i.e. only active use = summon and de-summon]
Pets do not always stealth correctly
Pets tend to automatically attack without “permission”
Pets tend to grab aggro unexpectedly
Base damage is too low
Suggestion:
Allow summoned pets to scale with stamina or magicka
Provide additional key-binds for pet control – as a minimum:
Attack, Defend, Passive
Provide an active ability to summons

Daedric Curse:
Issues:
Does not trigger Surge healing
Damage bonus for pets from prey morph does not cover the DPS loss compared to velocious morph
Suggestion:
Allow Surge to gain heals from Daedric Curse
Increase deadric prey pet bonus for non ultimate pets

Summon Winged Twilight:
Issues:
Does not scale with stamina
Does not scale with battle spirit correctly
Dies too easily
Limited ability to control pets
Not effective enough given the relative cost of use [i.e. 2/3 slots used]
Limited active usage [i.e. only active use = summon and de-summon]
Pets do not always stealth correctly
Pets tend to automatically attack without “permission”
Pets tend to grab aggro unexpectedly
Base damage is a bit low
Suggestion:
Allow summoned pets to scale with stamina or magicka
Allow Twilight to heal itself [30s cool-down not shared with heal on caster]
Provide additional key-binds for pet control – as a minimum:
Attack, Defend, Passive
Provide an active ability to summons

Bound Armour:
Issue:
Armour/Spell Resistance provided is too low
Not effective enough given the relative cost of use [i.e. 2/3 slots used]
Limited active usage [i.e. only active use = summon and de-summon]
Suggestion:
Provide minor protection instead of current minor armour buff
Aegis gains both Armour and Spell Resist as the morph change
Provide an active ability to summons

Conjured Ward:
Issue:
Empowered ward relative usefulness is limited as the mending buff only lasts for the duration of the ward and is only minor
This ability is ineffective for stamina builds
Suggestion:
Change Empowered ward to scale off health such that it is usable by stamina builds and change Empowered ward to provide a major mending buff rather than a minor ward such that it is possible to heal through SpellBreaker hits [but with a smaller shield].

Summon Storm Atronach:
Issue:
Static, cannot move
Dies too easily
Limited ability to control pet
Suggestion:
Provide additional key-binds for pet control – as a minimum:
Attack, Defend
Provide the Atronach with a lot more HP or do not allow it to die until the duration has ended [as it has no taunt and cannot move]
Allow Atronach to move:
maybe as a morph
either moved by caster [as Shifting Standard]
or moves towards its designated/current target


Overall Analysis
There are significant issues with pets that make them unattractive to use and yet 2 class passives are directly tied to their use and they account for 3 skills [+ those skill morphs] and a separate skill morph. They are also ineffective in terms of damage without stacking maximum magicka and keeping a specific targeted buff up (Daedric Prey) – even then they are not exactly outstanding as they are fairly limited with regards to skill choice (2x Pet toggles (4xslots); 1xDaedric Prey for mediocre single target damage).

Stamina builds have little direct synergy with class passives and could do with some abilities that do synergise with the class passives / a better selection of class active abilities. This is broadly true of all classes [Nightblades being a potential exception].

There are a number of morphs that are appear to be relatively under-used as their effectiveness drops off towards the end-game, they are relatively weak compared to the alternative morph, or they are not effective in their design/usage.


Updated.

Johngo0036

WOOOOOOW....... I always thought sorcs had issues now i have confirmation....

Not bad for a class that is considered the strongest in PVP,
Thank god you have these issues or you would be GODS....

LOL

Nice list and yes most of these issues are true..

Hridh

Allow me to repost here a very good analyses by Yolokin_Swagonborn, now burried in the PTS (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/209120/stamina-sorcerers-the-next-steps-for-zos)
regarding the current state of Stamina Sorcerer, with an objective comparison of tools available, or rather their lack of, with other classes:

Sorcerer Stamina Builds vs the stamina builds of other classes: Why Sorcerer doesn't match up.

Here are the four criteria that make a stamina build strong in ESO and why the proposed changes to stamina sorcerer are not yet enough to be considered a serious endgame stamina build.

A stamina build, by definition uses stamina based skills (primarily) for DPS and magicka skills (primarily) for utility. Every class that has a strong stamina build currently has at least one CLASS SKILL (or passive) in each of the following categories:

A direct damage, instant cast, CLASS BASED ability that uses stamina.
A magika based class utility ability that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
A class based passive that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
An class ability that reduces the enemies physical resistance


If you look at what the other classes have in these four categories, you can see why the Sorcerers fall so short in stamina performance and why the proposed changes (e.g. changing lighting form from a magicka based utility to a stamina based "damage" skill) do little to close this gaping skill discrepancy.

Templar Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage: Biting Jabs/ Stam Javelin
2. Stam Support Utility: Repentance
3. Passives that support stamina: Balanced warrior
4. Armor Debuff: Power of the light

Dragonknight Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage:Burning Breath, Unstable Flame
2. Stam Support Utility:Green Dragon Blood, Flames of Oblivion, igneous weapons
3. Passives that support stamina:Battle Roar, Mountain's Blessing, Helping Hands
4. Armor Debuff:Burning Breath, Corrosive Armor

Nightblade Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Killer's Blade, Ambush, power extraction, and Surprise attack (the mother of all direct damage stam skills:)
2. Stam Support Utility: Relentless Focus, siphoning attacks, power extractions (functions as 1 and 2), double take
3. Passives that support stamina:Master Assassin, pressure points, hemorrhage, refreshing shadows(30% stam regen with no need to slot anything)
4. Armor Debuff:Mark Target, Surprise attack

Looking at this list it is immediately clear what class has the strongest stamina build and why. Now lets apply these four criteria to sorcerer:

Sorcerer (Current)
1. Direct Damage Class Based Stamina Skill: NOTHING
2. Stam Support Utility: Nothing that returns stamina. Bound Armaments (takes two slots), Dark Deal (crippling 4 second channel), Boundless Storm (mobility utility), Critical Surge (expensive as hell, Dots steal big heals)
3. Passives that support stamina: unholy knowledge (5% stam cost reduction)
4. Armor Debuff: NOTHING

Hmmm, I wonder why stamina sorcs are lagging behind the other classes in effectiveness. Let's look at the proposed changes.

Sorcerer (Proposed)
1. Direct Damage Class Based Stamina Skill: Thundering Presence (maybe). Not exactly what I would call direct damage.
2. Stam Support Utility: Still nothing that returns Stamina. Bound Armaments (still takes two slots), Dark Deal (1 sec cast time - improved), Crit Surge (increased uptime will help with the cost and DOTs no longer steal heals)
3. Passives that support stamina: Unholy Knowledge, Expert Mage - Increase spell/weapon damage 2% per sorc ability.
4. Armor Debuff: NOTHING

Here's what I like about the changes: They actually attempt to fix a few existing skills with serious flaws that prevented anyone from ever using them. More testing is needed to see if the new Dark Deal and the new crit surge are effective battlefield skills now. Both used to be too slow, too clunky and way too expensive for a stamina sorc to use in endgame pvp or pve.

What I don't like:

Thundering presence still only counts as direct damage if you are in close proximity to your enemy and activate it at the right time. It will be no where near as powerful or easy to use as something like the Nightblade surprise attack when you need simple, spammable, class based stam DPS.
Bound Armaments needs another pass. The 8% stam boost is great but the opportunity cost of using two slots is absurdly high. Also, Bound Armaments should boost ALL melee attacks, (not just heavy attacks). Then it might be worth slotting.
The increased weapon damage per sorc ability is interesting but there is a fatal flaw. Since Sorcerers do not have any strong class based stamina damage skills (see above) they will rely heavily on 2H and other weapon skills to fill in the gaps. As @FENGRUSH said above, this will reduce the effectiveness of this passive.


Here are three things that I think should happen on the next "stamina Sorc" pass.

1. As mentioned in this thread, pets should scale on either stam or magicka (this will help PvE)
2. A "Crystal Punch" skill should be implemented based on this suggestion. Give it an armor debuff and you now have a skill that fulfills Categories 1 and 4.
3. The Streak Morph of Bolt Escape should have its 50% cost cooldown penalty removed if the player lands a melee attack within the 4 second cooldown window. This would allow stamina sorcerers to use Streak offensively, stay in the fight, but still punish them severely if they use it to escape. Mobility is CRITICAL to stamina sorcerers and the new nerf makes the ability way too expensive for anyone but magicka/regen stackers. With this change, stamina sorcerer could use their class defining skill and it would actually be an incentive to use the Streak morph since Ball Of Lightning is the current meta.

If you like these proposed changes, please put this in your signature.
Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on August 26, 2015 1:27AM

Septimus_Magna

Nice list, most problems you address are valid.

All I want is a spammable damage ability at this point, Im getting sick and tired of relying on crushing shock tbh.

Jar_Ek

@Johngo0036 As I said in the OP, I would like all classes to make a list like this so that zos have a reasonably clear view of the concerns and suggested player solutions. Tbh with many of the issues relatively easy and minor impact changes would make help alot.

Waffennacht

I look at your list and you wanna know what's my first thought? "What a great way to make the class a bamf"

I mean those little things add up and I can't help but feel like I would be OP. As is I feel my sorc is pretty comparable.

I can't help feeling that what you really want is an overhaul on all classes making them all equally bamfs. Im in favor for this. Before all the nerfs it each class felt like it was extremely strong in what they did, I feel your changes would bring this back.

Now it feels more like other games, each base class very similar with the taste of individualism, your changes would make more class defined roles (which again i like: stealthy invis assassins, healers that make a tank immortal, sorcs that teleport and bring the elements and DKs that use brute force to crush defenses)

Just what came to my mind

Jar_Ek

Well I wasn't suggesting that all the suggestions were implemented to be honest @Waffennacht
I was more trying to state what the currently perceived issues that sorcerers have.

Now having said that, you are right - I would like all classes to be overhauled to be more complete and better thought out - especially with regards to viable stamina and magicka builds. I also do not have a problem with all classes having skills and morphs that are good enough that it is a tricky choice in what to select both as the morph and for a given skill slot. Currently it is too often a no-brainer as to which morph to take or what skill to slot.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Thanks to @Jar_Ek for keeping the sorcerer discussion active and alive and thanks to @Hridh for linking my stam sorc analysis here. It is also in my signature if anyone wants to read it in it's original formatting.

Hopefully this thread will serve as the new place for all of our sorcerer discussion needs. I will try to link to a few of the older threads so we don't have to keep repeating ourselves.


There is another sorcerer solution I have thought of, although it takes the class in a completely different direction. In our other sorc threads, there is always disagreement as to whether sorcerer should be a pure magicka class or have the option to use stamina like all other classes can. I believe the arguments for a pure magicka class are lore based.

However, there is another role the sorcerer plays in the lore that has mainly been forgotten in this particualr Elder Scrolls Game: That of the Spellsword

While powerful in Oblivion and Skyrim, the spellsword has been largely forgotten in this game after being roughly kicked out of cyrodill when the softcaps were removed and attribute stacking became the meta. Hybrid builds were possible in 1.5 and there were several amazing sorcerer builds that effectively used both magicka and stamina.

Since every class has unique and powerful passives, the spellsword could return to ESO with one simple passive change.

Spellsword Passive: All sorcerer abilities now scale off your highest resource.


As is said, this is a different direction for sorcerer but it would be a quick fix for many of the classes problems without having to make additional stamina morphs for every single skill. It would be a powerful passive but every class has a few powerful passives like the DK Dragon Roar.

Here are the benefits of such a change.

• Pets damage would now scale of stamina (if it was higher) giving stam sorcs a good reason to use pets.
• The sorc damage shield would be available to both magicka and stamina sorcerers.
• Other great sorc skills like liquid lightning could be used by stamina sorcerers.

Other classes would immediately complain of course but these are the same people that say that sorcerer should only use magicka. So we use our magicka to magically change our skills to scale off our max resource. Bam. Problem solved.

Gern_Verkheart

Honestly, I'd be happy if they just gave us a stamina morph for Crystal Shard (it would have to have a chance to become instant cast like Crystal Fragments, otherwise it would still be useless)

Sokre93

I'd just like to point out that Sorc pets are immune to many forms of boss damaging effects, and as such prove to be invaluable tanks. That is all.

CGPsaint

Someone get this man a cookie! Definitely some great information there that will most certainly come in handy as I slowly but surely build my Sorcerer.

Jar_Ek

No comment @Dracane, @Erock25, @Huggalump, @Cathexis, @Xeven, @CP5, @Tankqull, @Derra ?

CP5

Jar_Ek wrote: »

No comment @Dracane, @Erock25, @Huggalump, @Cathexis, @Xeven, @CP5, @Tankqull, @Derra ?

Somehow I missed this thread, give me a sec to read it.

CP5

Ok, looked it over and i'm kind of shocked. You didn't put "Is able to get itself killed in record time" under the problems for the twilight. All joking aside a good write up, kind of reminds me of what was going on in february when people were actively talking about the class with the hope that something would happen. Good times.

Emma_Overload

Almost all Sorc problems could be solved with the following steps:

1) Give Sorcs an instant cast damage spell with both Magicka AND Stamina morphs.

2) Make a morph for Conjured Ward that costs Stamina and scales off Stamina, NOT Health or whatever.

3) Remove the horrible cooldown from Surge and all its morphs.

4) Remove the exponential cost increase for Bolt Escape and its morphs.

Dracane

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Almost all Sorc problems could be solved with the following steps:

1) Give Sorcs an instant cast damage spell with both Magicka AND Stamina morphs.

2) Make a morph for Conjured Ward that costs Stamina and scales off Stamina, NOT Health or whatever.

3) Remove the horrible cooldown from Surge and all its morphs.

4) Remove the exponential cost increase for Bolt Escape and its morphs.

I agree with everything but Stamina ward. Would be too strong with the high movement and ability to totally avoid damage of stamina users.

Health scale and stamina cost sounds somewhat balanced. If Templar with their OP heal are allowed to have a damage shield, then Sorcs with no heal do either.
However, especially the cooldown of Surge must be removed. Even more important: Daedric Curse and Mines must count as normal hits, not DoTs. So they can be triggered by Surge. Would help Sorcs to do something against this broken shieldbreaker

Kuratius

Another potential sorcerer issue: Daedric mines may be bugged when used against bosses, with only one of the mines doing damage if all of them explode simultaenously.

Dracane

Kuratius wrote: »

Another potential sorcerer issue: Daedric mines may be bugged when used against bosses, with only one of the mines doing damage if all of them explode simultaenously.

Sadly, Zenimax included a cooldown to mines.
Bosses or monsters with boss immunity (such as Daedroths and all these big creatures that ignore roots) can trigger all mines within 1 second, but will only take damage from 1 mine thanks to the cooldown.
It's understandable to balance it.

Not understandable however is the cooldown to the blood magic passive. It's so weak, I don't know, why it would need such a long cooldown.

LameoveR

For PVP It's not issues.
It's "why my class can't instagib all in 30m radius in 1 sec with any skill i chose".

But i agree about PVE - sustained DPS is relatively low.

Derra

I´ll give it a readthrough tomorrow. Spent the weekend with family and i´m too tired for now.

Kuratius

Dracane wrote: »

Kuratius wrote: »

Another potential sorcerer issue: Daedric mines may be bugged when used against bosses, with only one of the mines doing damage if all of them explode simultaenously.

Sadly, Zenimax included a cooldown to mines.
Bosses or monsters with boss immunity (such as Daedroths and all these big creatures that ignore roots) can trigger all mines within 1 second, but will only take damage from 1 mine thanks to the cooldown.
It's understandable to balance it.

Not understandable however is the cooldown to the blood magic passive. It's so weak, I don't know, why it would need such a long cooldown.

The cooldown should at least be as low as the cooldown on surge, otherwise you can't even play strategically and make the boss walk through the mines. That's damn hard to do if the boss doesn't have a hitbox as big as a house and should be rewarded.

With how it's atm, as long as they are immune to the mines, they shouldn't even trigger them. I mean what's the point? Just make them not spawn in the boss hitbox or something and then you get an interesting movement mechanic for DDs.

Jar_Ek

@LameoveR Well as you can see from the OP, magicka PvP issues are not about survivability or dps, but about build diversity and overreliance on the specific skills. Thus really magicka builds do not have a major problems with PvP.

@Yolokin_Swagonborn The idea of a passive that allowed class skills to scale from the highest or a combination of magicka and stamina with an appropriate factor has been suggested before. I think that if they were to do this, it would probably need to be a world skill line.

@Kuratius Your point is the one that the line "Ability has reduced effect against “boss” mobs" was meant to cover - but I fully agree it is poor design if the boss cannot trigger multiple mines - maybe large bosses should simply take 50% less damage from a mine and still activate them?

LameoveR

All your suggestions and hopes are there:

TheDarkShadow

I suggest change Bound Armaments to "Deadric Sword" or any fancy name. In stead of a Deadric armor, the stam morphs give you a Deadric sword like the one that drop down from the sky when you "kill" Molag Bal (the animation is really cool I want it). This Deadric Sword gives you:

+5% Stam (8% at max rank).

In stead of Minor Resolve, it give you Minor Brutality OR Minor Force (ESO doesn't have any skill with Minor Force buff yet does it?).

In stead of increase heavy attack damage, (which I think clearly encourage people spaming Wrecking Blow with heavy weaving, which I think is bad because it narrow the choice, almost every Sorc use WB, it's boring), Deadric Sword gives your INSTANT - MELEE attacks a change to deal x more damage. Why? So people would consider to use other instant skills in DW or 1h-shield line with light weaving instead of WB spaming. The change and x damage much be on pair with WB + heavy spam.

GuyNamedSean

I chose Sorceror for Daedric Summoning. Turned out to be trash. Now I'm a Nightblade.

Huggalump

Jar_Ek wrote: »

No comment @Dracane, @Erock25, @Huggalump, @Cathexis, @Xeven, @CP5, @Tankqull, @Derra ?

There's not a whole lot for me to say. I've basically only played sorc as stamina, and I've been very vocal about stam concerns.

After getting frustrated a month back, I did go magicka for a few weeks. Despite being a v16 sorcerer, my light armor skill was only at 25 haha. Anyhow, it seemed like a much more full class. I really enjoyed running around with my bar full of sorc abilities, making use of my sorc passives. If my sorc weren't a khajit, I'd still be magicka. But alas.

You are right though, they basically all use the same builds... but who doesn't? There's minor variations and even with my limited knowledge of sorc, I made changes. Sure, everyone uses curse, frag, streak, hardened ward, but that's not so bad imo. They're class defining skills.

I did try sorc tanking for a bit (stam). I was surprised by how well it works after 1.7. Dark deal for infinite stamina is rad.

Again, there's not a whole lot I can say about balance. I've only experienced the sorc class. I can only offer opinions when it comes to making the class more fun and complete. To that objective, I say add a direct damage stamina morph for stam sorcs so we actually feel like a spellsword while playing stam.

Good thread. Very well organized and points well stated.

Derra

Huggalump wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

No comment @Dracane, @Erock25, @Huggalump, @Cathexis, @Xeven, @CP5, @Tankqull, @Derra ?

There's not a whole lot for me to say. I've basically only played sorc as stamina, and I've been very vocal about stam concerns.

After getting frustrated a month back, I did go magicka for a few weeks. Despite being a v16 sorcerer, my light armor skill was only at 25 haha. Anyhow, it seemed like a much more full class. I really enjoyed running around with my bar full of sorc abilities, making use of my sorc passives. If my sorc weren't a khajit, I'd still be magicka. But alas.

You are right though, they basically all use the same builds... but who doesn't? There's minor variations and even with my limited knowledge of sorc, I made changes. Sure, everyone uses curse, frag, streak, hardened ward, but that's not so bad imo. They're class defining skills.

I did try sorc tanking for a bit (stam). I was surprised by how well it works after 1.7. Dark deal for infinite stamina is rad.

Again, there's not a whole lot I can say about balance. I've only experienced the sorc class. I can only offer opinions when it comes to making the class more fun and complete. To that objective, I say add a direct damage stamina morph for stam sorcs so we actually feel like a spellsword while playing stam.

Good thread. Very well organized and points well stated.

I´ll chime in here. I´ve only played magica sorcerer since three weeks after release when i picked up on the game (damn you reaper of souls) up until the middle of 1.6 when i started leveling the other classes.

While the class may (or may not) be more complete than a stamina sorcerer I find your comment regarding build diversity a little unsettling. The main issue i have with magica sorcerer when compared to magica nightblade and magica templar (can´t comment on dk since i did not level one yet) is how onedimensional the class is.
You have basically two options:
1. Petsorc where you have to go all out on maximising effectiveness of your pets in order for them to become somewhat vaible (against a competent opponent who knows how to play against pets they still won´t be). So this is still like a niche build. The wide majority of magica sorcerers is playing:
2. Standard sorc with crystal fragments, curse, fury, shock (most of them desto resto).

Both of these are bound to use a restoration staff for defense as of now because without atleast one direct heal you can´t go up against shieldbreaker at all.

While i know there are some sorcerers not utilizing destro staff (with some success too) i still think it´s mandatory. I´ve yet to meet a sorc with DW/S&B who is not playing a "trollspec". You can´t take the fight against a competent opponent without an anytime direct damaging ability (anyone who lets you execute a full det, curse into fragments dawnbreaker combo is NOT competent in my book). Playing DW with shadow silk is just playing the poor mans version of a destro resto sorc - your giving up dmg for the sake of being different.

Still both sorcerers use the same skills on most skill slots. Sorc has so many bad skills still that the few good ones are an obvious mandatory choice for every sorc spec. These are:
Fragments, Curse, Ward, teleport.
Building on this every sorc build will be functioning in the same way. You have to add in surge/entropy; Healing ward/Harness (or both); one resto heal ability and an anytimed damage ability. This basically leaves you with two MAYBE three skills that are up to personal taste.
Given how much synergy boundless storm offers with the rest of your template it´s also an obvious choice for most sorcs at this point. In the end it leads to the choice of mines or detonation and which suits your personal playstyle better.

There is no variety found in sorc builds and it has been this way since release of the game. When comparing these to a magica NB or Templar i can build both classes with a ranged and a melee magica build on the top of my head. Also i´m not hindering my ability at all if i choose to not run staves on both bars. For templars you can bypass staves entirely even for magica builds (it´s debateable on NB imho they still need HW).

You can meet two magica templars and have no idea how they are set up at all. The same with two magica nightblades. When you´re encountering a magica sorcerer you know exactly what is going to happen every time.

This is what is wrong about magica sorc in my opinion.

Don´t get me wrong - i don´t think the class is weak or has bad spells. I only think the class is the most straight forward in terms of skillchoices because it has the highest amount of useless / redundant / niche class skills (and passives).
I even think there is more variety in stamina sorcerers because of weapon choices than there is with magica sorcs but since i´m not an expert on those i´ll ask @kkampaseb17_ESO to give his opinion.

Edit: On top of that sorcerer ultimates are still horribly bad. Overload is a trollmove that you can either hardcounter or it will kill you (as of 1.7) if the sorc startet with enough ultimate.
Negate and Attro have not been skilled for me since 1.6 hit.
As a result sorcs use either bats, dawnbreaker or soulassault and it has been this way for well - even before 1.6 hit sorcs have been using mainly these options (not dawnbreaker ofc).

Dracane

Derra wrote: »

I´ll chime in here. I´ve only played magica sorcerer since three weeks after release when i picked up on the game (damn you reaper of souls) up until the middle of 1.6 when i started leveling the other classes.

While the class may (or may not) be more complete than a stamina sorcerer I find your comment regarding build diversity a little unsettling. The main issue i have with magica sorcerer when compared to magica nightblade and magica templar (can´t comment on dk since i did not level one yet) is how onedimensional the class is.
You have basically two options:
1. Petsorc where you have to go all out on maximising effectiveness of your pets in order for them to become somewhat vaible (against a competent opponent who knows how to play against pets they still won´t be). So this is still like a niche build. The wide majority of magica sorcerers is playing:
2. Standard sorc with crystal fragments, curse, fury, shock (most of them desto resto).

Both of these are bound to use a restoration staff for defense as of now because without atleast one direct heal you can´t go up against shieldbreaker at all.

While i know there are some sorcerers not utilizing destro staff (with some success too) i still think it´s mandatory. I´ve yet to meet a sorc with DW/S&B who is not playing a "trollspec". You can´t take the fight against a competent opponent without an anytime direct damaging ability (anyone who lets you execute a full det, curse into fragments dawnbreaker combo is NOT competent in my book). Playing DW with shadow silk is just playing the poor mans version of a destro resto sorc - your giving up dmg for the sake of being different.

Still both sorcerers use the same skills on most skill slots. Sorc has so many bad skills still that the few good ones are an obvious mandatory choice for every sorc spec. These are:
Fragments, Curse, Ward, teleport.
Building on this every sorc build will be functioning in the same way. You have to add in surge/entropy; Healing ward/Harness (or both); one resto heal ability and an anytimed damage ability. This basically leaves you with two MAYBE three skills that are up to personal taste.
Given how much synergy boundless storm offers with the rest of your template it´s also an obvious choice for most sorcs at this point. In the end it leads to the choice of mines or detonation and which suits your personal playstyle better.

There is no variety found in sorc builds and it has been this way since release of the game. When comparing these to a magica NB or Templar i can build both classes with a ranged and a melee magica build on the top of my head. Also i´m not hindering my ability at all if i choose to not run staves on both bars. For templars you can bypass staves entirely even for magica builds (it´s debateable on NB imho they still need HW).

You can meet two magica templars and have no idea how they are set up at all. The same with two magica nightblades. When you´re encountering a magica sorcerer you know exactly what is going to happen every time.

This is what is wrong about magica sorc in my opinion.

Don´t get me wrong - i don´t think the class is weak or has bad spells. I only think the class is the most straight forward in terms of skillchoices because it has the highest amount of useless / redundant / niche class skills (and passives).
I even think there is more variety in stamina sorcerers because of weapon choices than there is with magica sorcs but since i´m not an expert on those i´ll ask @kkampaseb17_ESO to give his opinion.

Edit: On top of that sorcerer ultimates are still horribly bad. Overload is a trollmove that you can either hardcounter or it will kill you (as of 1.7) if the sorc startet with enough ultimate.
Negate and Attro have not been skilled for me since 1.6 hit.
As a result sorcs use either bats, dawnbreaker or soulassault and it has been this way for well - even before 1.6 hit sorcs have been using mainly these options (not dawnbreaker ofc).

Agree agree and agree. Totally right.

We both had this discussion before.... Sorcerer is the most predictable class. As long as you protect yourself from crystal shard, which is extremely easy as it is blockable, reflectbable and of course dodgeable. Sorcerer CAN'T kill without crystal fragments in a normal rotation. Avoid that and the Sorcerer has no chance.

As a Nightblade all I need to do is jump at my target, attack with my unavoidable damage, cloak here and there to confuse my target and strike again. Sorcerer offers no surprises,it's straight forward as you said.
Again: The only reason in this world, why Sorcerer is competive IS hardened ward. THIS is what makes this class good, not bolt escape, not crystal shard. Only hardened ward is keeping this class alive and let no one tell you otherwise and this is why stamina Sorcerer will never be as effective.

Stamina Sorcerer is mighty, just like any stamina build thanks to their abilitiy to totally negate damage. But stamina Sorcerer (just like Magicka) offers no surprises, nothing special, nothing unexpected, nothing that takes more than a few brain cells to counter. Magicka Sorcerer is NOT fine, neither is stamina Sorcerer. Who looses against Sorcerer, seriously needs to get his eyes checked. I really don't get it.
It's only due to hardened ward being such a good protection. If you take this away from Sorcerer.... they are NOTHING.

Hridh

Off all the possible changes, before going into small tweaks, one MAIN question of class philosophy would be : if PETS are to be a signature part of sorcerer, why not make at least one pet viable as Stamina build?
Even keep the Magika cost to summon if you wish, but its strength should derive from Stamina, or go the ultimate way of taking whichever highest ressource. And have a pet stats mimicking its owner own stamina could be daedricly IC, wouldn' it?

I say that where I actually have waisting 2 skills on toogles, but we could consider it a fair trade for overpower skill bar (which thanks to lag is not something you can quickly summon for lets say an emergency heal, plus you need to have ult. available), although I really believe it unfair for toogles to take 2 slots, esp. when we are - I believe - the only class with such a handicap?

Regarding smaller details, shields scaling off stamina feel too much in my opinion. Maybe, if we consider that summoning line could work as tanking line, scale one of health could be logical (and lore-wise, the more vitality you have, the more powerful the shield you summon off your sheer vitality). A direct dmg stam ability is a must-be in my opinion, with either daedric mine (revamped to be useful) or crystal aoe morph as candidates

PS : sorry for the shameless reposting of your analysis Yolokin ^_^

Septimus_Magna

Dracane wrote: »

Who looses against Sorcerer, seriously needs to get his eyes checked

This is kinda absurd Dracane, cfrags is predicable but unavoidable if the sorcs uses the streak stun right. And we all know how hard cfrags can hit, even after IC update I still hit people for 10k on a regular basis.

Sorcs might only have a few build options but the ones that work are strong. The strength of sorcs in pvp is just fine, its mainly the versatility thats lacking.

Dracane

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Who looses against Sorcerer, seriously needs to get his eyes checked

This is kinda absurd Dracane, cfrags is predicable but unavoidable if the sorcs uses the streak stun right. And we all know how hard cfrags can hit, even after IC update I still hit people for 10k on a regular basis.

Sorcs might only have a few build options but the ones that work are strong. The strength of sorcs in pvp is just fine, its mainly the versatility thats lacking.

Seems like you only meet bad enemies. They usually are already roll dodging as soon as they break free.
I really don't understand, why people have problems with crystal fragments. Each person with some reaction won't get fooled by this streak combo.