• Combine Rebate and Expert Summoner into a single passive (with the effects of both) and create a new Expert Conjurer passive, along the lines of:
o Bound armour provides a minor vitality buff (4/8%) buff whilst active.
o Daedric Curse applies a minor defile effect on the target until it explodes.
o Conjured ward scales off health if higher than magicka.
This means that the other half of the skill line has a beneficial effect for all sorcerers, makes wards and curses useful for stamina builds without being too overpowered for magicka and buffs Bound Armour to make it more attractive to use as a toggle (and hence on 2-3 bars). This passive alone would provide a shield for stamina sorcerers without affecting magicka ones at all - it would not be spammable in the way that magicka builds can spam shields because the resource used would still be magicka and hence not OP.
Thalmor-Nordmaster wrote: »Pet fights is the next step Sooner or later you clannfear and twilight are going to duke it out. Right when you need them. And guess what you cant cancel them and you can break it up. Now that would;d be entertaining.
Mettaricana wrote: »I would like a reduced range endless fury called endless fist were it is a punch blast of lightning that aoe explodes on kill and recovers stamina then I can scream falcon punch as I finish players and enemies. Also change the other crystal morph to a proc on stamina skill keep the aoe dmg. Also add spell resist to bound aegis. Surge should just be a toggle at this point they keep adding duration and reduction cost just toggle it add the reduce max magika by 5% thing to it while active
I would love to slot more sorcerer skills but objectively most just don't work for stamina builds. Pets don't do any damage as they scale off magicka, and the same with all damage abilities - crystal shards, curses, daedric mines, ightning splash, mages fury, all bar thunderous presence (which is a utility) and the same goes for our best utility skill (conjured ward). Then bolt escape cost increases make it painful for stamina builds to use (it becomes very situational with a 4s cooldown).
Then the majority of the class passives simply don't work for stamina builds (it's a lot better on pts now it must be said) as they affect abilities that don't scale with stamina (Rebate, Expert Summoned, Energised, Disintegrate) or straight out work for magicka builds (Exploitation).
Finally Surge is not quite the awesome sauce you seem to think it is... it does provide brutality and crit based heals (but not any extra from striking multiple foes), but it doesn't work with any DoTs (so no flurry healing or any bow DoTs or DoT from rending slash) and brutality is also available from Rally (consistent HoT with burst heal) and flying blade (ranged single target damage). In fact it is potentially worse than Rally because it has an RNG aspect whilst Rally has a potential burst heal.
So even when you factor in the new passive changes, there is more that needs to be done in order to bring stamina sorcerer characters up to almost the same level as others.
Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Sorcerer Stamina Builds vs the stamina builds of other classes: Why Sorcerer doesn't match up.
Here are the four criteria that make a stamina build strong in ESO and why the proposed changes to stamina sorcerer are not yet enough to be considered a serious endgame stamina build.
A stamina build, by definition uses stamina based skills (primarily) for DPS and magicka skills (primarily) for utility. Every class that has a strong stamina build currently has at least one CLASS SKILL (or passive) in each of the following categories:
- A direct damage, instant cast, CLASS BASED ability that uses stamina.
- A magika based class utility ability that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
- A class based passive that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
- An class ability that reduces the enemies physical resistance
If you look at what the other classes have in these four categories, you can see why the Sorcerers fall so short in stamina performance and why the proposed changes (e.g. changing lighting form from a magicka based utility to a stamina based "damage" skill) do little to close this gaping skill discrepancy.
Templar Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage: Biting Jabs/ Stam Javelin
2. Stam Support Utility: Repentance
3. Passives that support stamina: Balanced warrior
4. Armor Debuff: Power of the light
Dragonknight Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage:Burning Breath, Unstable Flame
2. Stam Support Utility:Green Dragon Blood, Flames of Oblivion, igneous weapons
3. Passives that support stamina:Battle Roar, Mountain's Blessing, Helping Hands
4. Armor Debuff:Burning Breath, Corrosive Armor
Nightblade Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Killer's Blade, Ambush, power extraction, and Surprise attack (the mother of all direct damage stam skills:)
2. Stam Support Utility: Relentless Focus, siphoning attacks, power extractions (functions as 1 and 2), double take
3. Passives that support stamina:Master Assassin, pressure points, hemorrhage, refreshing shadows(30% stam regen with no need to slot anything)
4. Armor Debuff:Mark Target
Looking at this list it is immediately clear what class has the strongest stamina build and why. Now lets apply these four criteria to sorcerer:
Sorcerer (Current)
1. Direct Damage Class Based Stamina Skill: NOTHING
2. Stam Support Utility: Bound Armaments (takes two slots), Dark Deal (crippling 4 second channel), Boundless Storm (mobility utility), Critical Surge (expensive as hell, Dots steal big heals)
3. Passives that support stamina: unholy knowledge (5% stam cost reduction)
4. Armor Debuff: NOTHING
Hmmm, I wonder why stamina sorcs are lagging behind the other classes in effectiveness. Let's look at the proposed changes.
Sorcerer (Proposed)
1. Direct Damage Class Based Stamina Skill: Thundering Presence (maybe). Not exactly what I would call direct damage.
2. Stam Support Utility: Bound Armaments (still takes two slots), Dark Deal (1 sec cast time - improved), Crit Surge (increased uptime will help with the cost and DOTs no longer steal heals)
3. Passives that support stamina: Unholy Knowledge, Expert Mage - Increase spell/weapon damage 2% per sorc ability.
4. Armor Debuff: NOTHING
Here's what I like about the changes: They actually attempt to fix a few existing skills with serious flaws that prevented anyone from ever using them. More testing is needed to see if the new Dark Deal and the new crit surge are effective battlefield skills now. Both used to be too slow, too clunky and way too expensive for a stamina sorc to use in endgame pvp or pve.
What I don't like:
- Thundering presence still only counts as direct damage if you are in close proximity to your enemy and activate it at the right time. It will be no where near as powerful or easy to use as something like the Nightblade surprise attack when you need simple, spammable, class based stam DPS.
- Bound Armaments needs another pass. The 8% stam boost is great but the opportunity cost of using two slots is absurdly high. Also, Bound Armaments should boost ALL melee attacks, (not just heavy attacks). Then it might be worth slotting.
- The increased weapon damage per sorc ability is interesting but there is a fatal flaw. Since Sorcerers do not have any strong class based stamina damage skills (see above) they will rely heavily on 2H and other weapon skills to fill in the gaps. As @FENGRUSH said above, this will reduce the effectiveness of this passive.
Here are three things that I think should happen on the next "stamina Sorc" pass.
1. As mentioned in this thread, pets should scale on either stam or magicka (this will help PvE)
2. A "Crystal Punch" skill should be implemented based on this suggestion. Give it an armor debuff and you now have a skill that fulfills Categories 1 and 4.
3. The Streak Morph of Bolt Escape should have its 50% cost cooldown penalty removed if the player lands a melee attack within the 4 second cooldown window. This would allow stamina sorcerers to use Streak offensively, stay in the fight, but still punish them severely if they use it to escape. Mobility is CRITICAL to stamina sorcerers and the new nerf makes the ability way too expensive for anyone but magicka/regen stackers. With this change, stamina sorcerer could use their class defining skill and it would actually be an incentive to use the Streak morph since Ball Of Lightning is the current meta.
If you like these proposed changes, please put this in your signature.
Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Sorcerer Stamina Builds vs the stamina builds of other classes: Why Sorcerer doesn't match up.
Here are the four criteria that make a stamina build strong in ESO and why the proposed changes to stamina sorcerer are not yet enough to be considered a serious endgame stamina build.
A stamina build, by definition uses stamina based skills (primarily) for DPS and magicka skills (primarily) for utility. Every class that has a strong stamina build currently has at least one CLASS SKILL (or passive) in each of the following categories:
- A direct damage, instant cast, CLASS BASED ability that uses stamina.
- A magika based class utility ability that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
- A class based passive that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
- An class ability that reduces the enemies physical resistance
If you look at what the other classes have in these four categories, you can see why the Sorcerers fall so short in stamina performance and why the proposed changes (e.g. changing lighting form from a magicka based utility to a stamina based "damage" skill) do little to close this gaping skill discrepancy.
Templar Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage: Biting Jabs/ Stam Javelin
2. Stam Support Utility: Repentance
3. Passives that support stamina: Balanced warrior
4. Armor Debuff: Power of the light
Dragonknight Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage:Burning Breath, Unstable Flame
2. Stam Support Utility:Green Dragon Blood, Flames of Oblivion, igneous weapons
3. Passives that support stamina:Battle Roar, Mountain's Blessing, Helping Hands
4. Armor Debuff:Burning Breath, Corrosive Armor
Nightblade Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Killer's Blade, Ambush, power extraction, and Surprise attack (the mother of all direct damage stam skills:)
2. Stam Support Utility: Relentless Focus, siphoning attacks, power extractions (functions as 1 and 2), double take
3. Passives that support stamina:Master Assassin, pressure points, hemorrhage, refreshing shadows(30% stam regen with no need to slot anything)
4. Armor Debuff:Mark Target
Looking at this list it is immediately clear what class has the strongest stamina build and why. Now lets apply these four criteria to sorcerer:
Sorcerer (Current)
1. Direct Damage Class Based Stamina Skill: NOTHING
2. Stam Support Utility: Bound Armaments (takes two slots), Dark Deal (crippling 4 second channel), Boundless Storm (mobility utility), Critical Surge (expensive as hell, Dots steal big heals)
3. Passives that support stamina: unholy knowledge (5% stam cost reduction)
4. Armor Debuff: NOTHING
Hmmm, I wonder why stamina sorcs are lagging behind the other classes in effectiveness. Let's look at the proposed changes.
Sorcerer (Proposed)
1. Direct Damage Class Based Stamina Skill: Thundering Presence (maybe). Not exactly what I would call direct damage.
2. Stam Support Utility: Bound Armaments (still takes two slots), Dark Deal (1 sec cast time - improved), Crit Surge (increased uptime will help with the cost and DOTs no longer steal heals)
3. Passives that support stamina: Unholy Knowledge, Expert Mage - Increase spell/weapon damage 2% per sorc ability.
4. Armor Debuff: NOTHING
Here's what I like about the changes: They actually attempt to fix a few existing skills with serious flaws that prevented anyone from ever using them. More testing is needed to see if the new Dark Deal and the new crit surge are effective battlefield skills now. Both used to be too slow, too clunky and way too expensive for a stamina sorc to use in endgame pvp or pve.
What I don't like:
- Thundering presence still only counts as direct damage if you are in close proximity to your enemy and activate it at the right time. It will be no where near as powerful or easy to use as something like the Nightblade surprise attack when you need simple, spammable, class based stam DPS.
- Bound Armaments needs another pass. The 8% stam boost is great but the opportunity cost of using two slots is absurdly high. Also, Bound Armaments should boost ALL melee attacks, (not just heavy attacks). Then it might be worth slotting.
- The increased weapon damage per sorc ability is interesting but there is a fatal flaw. Since Sorcerers do not have any strong class based stamina damage skills (see above) they will rely heavily on 2H and other weapon skills to fill in the gaps. As @FENGRUSH said above, this will reduce the effectiveness of this passive.
Here are three things that I think should happen on the next "stamina Sorc" pass.
1. As mentioned in this thread, pets should scale on either stam or magicka (this will help PvE)
2. A "Crystal Punch" skill should be implemented based on this suggestion. Give it an armor debuff and you now have a skill that fulfills Categories 1 and 4.
3. The Streak Morph of Bolt Escape should have its 50% cost cooldown penalty removed if the player lands a melee attack within the 4 second cooldown window. This would allow stamina sorcerers to use Streak offensively, stay in the fight, but still punish them severely if they use it to escape. Mobility is CRITICAL to stamina sorcerers and the new nerf makes the ability way too expensive for anyone but magicka/regen stackers. With this change, stamina sorcerer could use their class defining skill and it would actually be an incentive to use the Streak morph since Ball Of Lightning is the current meta.
If you like these proposed changes, please put this in your signature.
Emma_Eunjung wrote: »There are some good suggestions here, but like most of the recommendations I've seen for Stam Sorcs, there is nothing here that's actually going to keep Sorcs ALIVE. They're all about damage and resource management, which are important, but they're not the ONLY things that are important.
These are good suggestions and you highlight the issues well for sure, but I'd rather see empowered ward scaling nicely off health before pets scale off of stam or magicka.
Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »These are good suggestions and you highlight the issues well for sure, but I'd rather see empowered ward scaling nicely off health before pets scale off of stam or magicka.
As much as a stamina or health based damage shield is tempting to me, I would rather it stay based on magicka. Changing it to stamina or health would be a huge nerf to magicka sorc and I would like to improve stamina sorcerer without nerfing magicka sorc in any way. A health based shield would only help sorc tanks as your DPS would be terrible and a stam based shield would have everyone crying for stam sorc nerfs. That's the last thing we need right now.
Also no one is mentioning the incredible armor potential of stam sorcs with major and minor armor buffs from lighting form and bound armaments.
If we just get a tune up on existing skills, and some actual stamina based damage and resource management, I think we will be fine survivability wise.
Personally I would.prefer the direct damage to be a version of mages fury. A instant, spammable, short range version. Hell I would be happy if it didn't execute if it did decent damage. I Also have to point out that the awesome potential of sorcerers armour is essentially no different to any other classes and a lot worse than some. The effect of a minor armour buff is currently negligible and everry class has access to a major buff.
But I agree empowered could be made a health shield.
Two reasons for suggesting a mages fury morph:
1. There is some dissent wrt crystal blast morph going to stamina and none for endless going stamina.
2. Mages Fury morph would benefit from energised and disintegrate which are damage bonuses and if we are going for a damage ability it would make sense.
3. Crystal blast stamina morph will never be allowed to proc off stamina abilities as it would make it too powerful and would be useless if it didn't.
Okay that's 3.
Two reasons for suggesting a mages fury morph:
1. There is some dissent wrt crystal blast morph going to stamina and none for endless going stamina.
2. Mages Fury morph would benefit from energised and disintegrate which are damage bonuses and if we are going for a damage ability it would make sense.
3. Crystal blast stamina morph will never be allowed to proc off stamina abilities as it would make it too powerful and would be useless if it didn't.
Okay that's 3.
Two reasons for suggesting a mages fury morph:
1. There is some dissent wrt crystal blast morph going to stamina and none for endless going stamina.
2. Mages Fury morph would benefit from energised and disintegrate which are damage bonuses and if we are going for a damage ability it would make sense.
3. Crystal blast stamina morph will never be allowed to proc off stamina abilities as it would make it too powerful and would be useless if it didn't.
Okay that's 3.
1. I don't care that Emma disagrees. He is like the only person in the game using that crap morph and doesn't even PvP in the first place, let alone play a Stam Sorc. His opinion is not valid. We also have Execute as 2h, something superior to MF, Steel Tornado as DW, again superior to MF.
2. We already have stuff that synergizes with Disintegrate particularly Lightning Form, Blast would be no different.
3. Disagree. We already have a magicka version and it's not op at all. It's a 35% chance and otherwise a 1s cast. Nothing op about this considering all 3 other classes already have insta cast abilities of their own which weave into LMH attacks. NB - Surprise Attack, etc, Templar -Jabs/Jav, etc. Blast would be no different.
My recommendation not only fixes Stam Sorcs for PvP but the change to the DM passive also makes them worth bringing to PvE encounters.
Two reasons for suggesting a mages fury morph:
1. There is some dissent wrt crystal blast morph going to stamina and none for endless going stamina.
2. Mages Fury morph would benefit from energised and disintegrate which are damage bonuses and if we are going for a damage ability it would make sense.
3. Crystal blast stamina morph will never be allowed to proc off stamina abilities as it would make it too powerful and would be useless if it didn't.
Okay that's 3.
Survivability is fine. I have weeks of PvP across various different Stamina Sorcs on PTS v2.1. We need more options for damage. Again, we are still a class neutral weapon with the option of skill bloat to make use of passives that barely change anything.
I keep seeing a PvE self proclaimed carebear Magicka Sorc recommending shields, you don't even play a stam sorc, let alone pvp with one. With Rally/Vigor, Boundless Storm, and Shuffle (or Efficient Purge) I have plenty of Survivability. Please stop beating the dead horse regarding something you don't understand. If I were to connect the dots this is your way of shifting the spotlight off Crystal Blast seeing you are the only person showing up consistently in every thread about Stam Sorcs defending the ability and proposing some strange paradigm related to a facet of gameplay you have nothing to do with in the first place.
All these proposed changes are way too much and will not happen. First it's too much work, second it's way too many changes other classes don't even have the luxury of.
Again, coming from someone that PvPs regularly on a Stamina Sorc (in the current v2.1 meta) all we need is Stamina morph of Crystal Blast that mirrors the Frag morph. This will also make use of the Dark Magic passives, something most Stam Sorc lack.
Crystal Blast:
(Crystal Blast Rank IV)
Cost - 2268 Stamina | Cast Time - 1s | Radius/Range 28m range (Enemy)
- Conjure dark crystals to bombard an enemy, dealing [x] Magic Damage and knocking them down for 2 seconds.
- Casting other spells & abilities has a 35% chance of causing your next Crystal Fragments to be instant, doing 20% more damage, and costing 50% less Stamina.
- Chance to make ability instant cast.
- Now scales off Weapon Damage and Max Stamina.
Also a redesign to the Exploitation passive:
Rank I
Activating a Dark Magic ability grants Minor Prophecy & Savagery to nearby allies, increasing Spell & Weapon Critical by [x] for 10 seconds.
Dark Magic Rank 39
Rank II
Activating a Dark Magic ability grants Minor Prophecy & Savagery to nearby allies, increasing Spell & Weapon Critical by [x] for 20 seconds.
Dark Magic Rank 50
Problem solved, Stam Sorcs now awesome.