3600 cp

SleepyTroll

I'm not saying the cap should be 1200. I'm just wondering why it's not. why is the cap literally every single point? By the time everyone gets 3600 we will all be the same. So why? I know it's to late now it just seems like if they doubled or even tripled the xp for cp and then capped it at 1200 it would have made for a better system rather then the way it is.
Also that day on PTS when ZOS gave everyone 3600 they even said that you would be overly powerful for the content, so what are they going to do just wait till most get 3600 then scale everything to that and screw the new players?
One more thing why did ZOS nerf the hp glyphs and attribute points, just to have to nerf damage?
Basically I do not understand the logic behind these choices.

Yonkit

I do, it's ZoS Logic! Breaking things that weren't broken since 2007!

SleepyTroll

Yonkit wrote: »

I do, it's ZoS Logic! Breaking things that weren't broken since 2007!

I hope the answer is more complicated then that.

Gidorick

I recently made a post regarding this issue @sleepytroll. Please go check it out here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219662/cp-active-passive-bar-cp-burn-concept/p1

Wimbuut

For me personally, I can't see myself grind, dungeon, PVP to 3600 cp. Like probably 90% of the players. PC players-perhaps, but console players, I don't know..

UltimaJoe777

Soon the cap won't be 3600 though.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

it was built for 1 point a day, best average i have ever had was 1 point an hour. so it would theoretically take 3,600 hours. maybe someone has a better average, but i can't see how even 30 mins per point or 1800 hours is that small of an expectation...

so far the mechanic changes, seem to compensate for a lack of block. not that it is a fact; but that is the theory i have so far. less damage from mobs means less need for health. to make the game a challenge, they reduced damage and related stats.

nimander99

/sigh

i3ig_Gun

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

it was built for 1 point a day, best average i have ever had was 1 point an hour. so it would theoretically take 3,600 hours. maybe someone has a better average, but i can't see how even 30 mins per point or 800 hours is that small of an expectation...

so far the mechanic changes, seem to compensate for a lack of block. not that it is a fact; but that is the theory i have so far. less damage from mobs means less need for health. to make the game a challenge, they reduced damage and related stats.

Thats 150 days.... FML

and thats if i grinded for 24 hours a day at 1 point per hour....

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

tyler_spearsb14_ESO wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

it was built for 1 point a day, best average i have ever had was 1 point an hour. so it would theoretically take 3,600 hours. maybe someone has a better average, but i can't see how even 30 mins per point or 800 hours is that small of an expectation...

so far the mechanic changes, seem to compensate for a lack of block. not that it is a fact; but that is the theory i have so far. less damage from mobs means less need for health. to make the game a challenge, they reduced damage and related stats.

Thats 150 days.... FML

and thats if i grinded for 24 hours a day at 1 point per hour....

thats pretty much the point. systems like these oyu don't bother with finishing them, you work at just filling in your needs. kinda like getting a diamond out of a quarry is nice, but polishing it makes it much more valuable. getting to level cap is the diamond, the CS is what polishes that diamond.

i also forgot to mention, it seems they may have also tried to balance the game around the CS as opposed to the opposite. they should have balanced the CS to the current game play. it would probably had been much more cost effective.

SleepyTroll

I would just love to know what ZOS is thinking about this.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

SleepyTroll wrote: »

I would just love to know what ZOS is thinking about this.

i asked, once all i got was a floor covered in drool and "DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH"

hrothbern

SleepyTroll wrote: »

I'm not saying the cap should be 1200. I'm just wondering why it's not. why is the cap literally every single point? By the time everyone gets 3600 we will all be the same. So why? I know it's to late now it just seems like if they doubled or even tripled the xp for cp and then capped it at 1200 it would have made for a better system rather then the way it is.

@SleepyTroll, Yeah... as you say... By the time everyone gets 3600, we will all be the same.
It seems more and more players realise this with having more CP gained, and after the candy bar effect of the CP system of the first months, are wondering what effect CP really has.
On this I posted in several threads. Below one of those:

hrothbern wrote: »

Very good action of ZOS to introduce a moving over time cap for CP that can be employed, without taking away hard earned CP's by grinding.

I would like to add a consideration to the discussion on CP that pops up directly and indirectly in some threads, but would like to outline it here to the point:

"as long as the CP's we can employ are a fraction of total CP now 3600 (I guess up to approx 50% of total CP), the CP system will ADD to the diversity of builds"

To put it in another way: "if all endgame people have max CP, the CP system ONLY AMPLIFIES the diversity of the builds coming from the diversity in gear, race, class, and abilities chosen in the class"

Because I favor a high diversity in builds between the players, I would favor that the max CP points that can be employed at any time in the game never exceeds approx 50% of the total CP.
I would recommend that if this would be implemented, that ZOS adds some perks to the CP tree for a total pool of 7200 during the coming years.

For more diversity and freedom of choice of builds

olsborg

The cp system needs a revamp, more interresting passives and the cap needs to be lowered so you actually have to choose how to change or better your character, if you can have it all in the end...theres little point in it.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

i don't know why people act like this is a set finite system.... its just like any other progression-they will add to it. today the max (not humanly possible to get) amount of 3600 points could one day be 4 thousand, or 5 thousand. the more features they add the more points required, the more you have to earn to "finish the system" which you are NOT going to finish the system.

if you do finish the system, then ZoS is truly run by morons because they didn't raise the bar.

NeoBeastX

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

i don't know why people act like this is a set finite system.... its just like any other progression-they will add to it. today the max (not humanly possible to get) amount of 3600 points could one day be 4 thousand, or 5 thousand. the more features they add the more points required, the more you have to earn to "finish the system" which you are NOT going to finish the system.

if you do finish the system, then ZoS is truly run by morons because they didn't raise the bar.

I don't see why people still believe it's unachievable to reach cap. I mean yes it will take a very decent amount of time but you do realize there are hardcore gamers and no life gamers out there who can achieve such cap in half the time it takes more normal players to achieve things in video games. I mean for instance people who play 12+/14+/16+/18+ hours on a daily basis could reach such a cap in 6-8 months of hard work and non stop grinding.

iliatha

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

it was built for 1 point a day

any source for that ? Do you think they implmented *** EXP POTS that least 50 min / 2 hours for making like ONE point / day ? They encouraged us to grind CPs and kept us playing while there was no sign of new content at all. Cap is *** sorry.

NeoBeastX wrote: »

I mean for instance people who play 12+/14+/16+/18+ hours on a daily basis could reach such a cap in 6-8 months of hard work and non stop grinding.

uhm no. IF you would grind 3 EXP pots per day, like THREE HOURS / day, it wouldnt even take 9 Month to reach cap. I did that for some weeks and i dont have to play 12+ hours / day or something.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

iliatha wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

it was built for 1 point a day

any source for that ? Do you think they implmented *** EXP POTS that least 50 min / 2 hours for making like ONE point / day ? They encouraged us to grind CPs and kept us playing while there was no sign of new content at all. Cap is *** sorry.

NeoBeastX wrote: »

I mean for instance people who play 12+/14+/16+/18+ hours on a daily basis could reach such a cap in 6-8 months of hard work and non stop grinding.

uhm no. IF you would grind 3 EXP pots per day, like THREE HOURS / day, it wouldnt even take 9 Month to reach cap. I did that for some weeks and i dont have to play 12+ hours / day or something.

yes i do have a source, and you can look for it because ZoS said they implemented the enlightenment to ensure that people got at least one per day. im not going to do the footwork for you. they put in experience pots for money, pure and simple. like everything else they do, it was half-assed and produced an anomaly with their own system, which they will now have to address. however, ill take your word for it when, you actually do get to the 3600 mark, as opposed to doing questionable math.

also i already pointed out the hours above, it is in theory reachable, but it would take a severe risk to physical/mental health.

this thread indicates the amount of CPs, since the system was released with no one claiming to have the 3600:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/221101/how-many-vr-do-you-have-how-many-cp-and-when-did-you-start#latest

ill also restate, that if they continue with the system in the same fashion all other MMOs have with identical systems, that they will raise the bar if they have any clue what so ever. if it were me in control, id add another 3600, adding a second tier of purchasable points (set of 4) unlocked after "x" spent in tier 1 (the original set of 4). the new tier of passives, would unlock at 121+ spent in the tree.

rb2001

I've said this for a long time. As soon as you start capping things or standardizing what power level players can achieve, you get into defeating the point of varying power levels to begin with.

When everyone hits the cap, no matter what number it is, because that is arbitrary, difficulty and mechanics will be adjusted (maybe not immediately, but certainly) such that everyone is now scaled to the new number.

End result if you look from far away is that nothing has actually changed. We all have the new power level, and we all equal each other, because we all have the same bonuses, and still the only people without that power level are the new players, who will still complain until they get there.

There is no point of a varying power system with limits such that everyone comes to the same power and game difficulty is adjusted for it.

You can't "get more powerful than your opponents" if they get equally more powerful. The result will be the same as if neither of you gained any power. I do not know why this is not immediately obvious.

Also, the CP system and ESO in a general are still fundamentally flawed in that pool sizes scale output. It means that whoever has more CP in any tree is better at everything than anyone with less CP, and diversity goes out the window.

ESO will never have diversity in practice until pool sizes stop scaling power.

In real life, we have diversity because swimmers and runners and slim and fast and have high endurance, but cannot lift 400 pound metal balls, while powerlifters can, but cannot run as fast or for as long as the runner.

Resource pool and power factor are mechanics that can model this concept to a fair degree, and ESO does not use them correctly.

ESO will never produce diversity, because an archer with more stamina hits harder in melee too just because he has more stamina.

ESO should separate pool size and power factor, and it should separate Strength and Endurance, much like, uh, every other game developer has figured out is the right thing to do.

It should also unify the champ menu and reg. skills menu into a single, giant star constellation map, with nodes required to unlock further nodes, and champ % boosts appearing as nodes, as well as active skills and also new passive slottable skills, that get slotted to a passives bar somewhere else.

Until ESO does these things, the combat will never approach balance, and power gains will never result in diversity in specific areas like they should in an RPG where the intent is for players to fill various roles that have pros and cons.

The problem is not and has never been soft caps, the removal of soft caps, VR ranks, Champ points, or whatever else new mechanic the small crowd blames.

The problem is ESO's fundamental modeling of resource pools and power scaling. No amount of capping, removing caps, tweaking will fix this until the modeling approaches reality.

dsalter

i can see them lowering the cap, increasing the impact per point. so that the cap is 1200 but the same results as if it was 3600

iliatha

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

yes i do have a source, and you can look for it because ZoS said they implemented the enlightenment to ensure that people got at least one per day. im not going to do the footwork for you.

AT LEAST ONE per day isnt the same as "it was built for 1 point a day". Are you kidding me ? ^^ Enlightment was implemented to ensure that people get at least one per day, not the CP system. Just bull**.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

also i already pointed out the hours above, it is in theory reachable, but it would take a severe risk to physical/mental health.

Yea and i answered that your thinking might be wrong. I grinded a lot and if i wouldnt have stopped i would reach 3600 cap in a few month. As mentioned i grinded 3 hrs a day. I dont think that 3 hrs of playing per day means physical/mental issues I mean it depends, sure. But its not like "oh you have to be a no-life guy and play at least 16 hrs/day to reach the top in 1 year" or something like that.

dsalter wrote: »

i can see them lowering the cap, increasing the impact per point. so that the cap is 1200 but the same results as if it was 3600

Would be kind of nice, saying that as someone who is far over 1200 cp. But cp system is needed to keep players busy and ignore the fact there is not enough content for many people. Dont think they would do something like that.

AlnilamE

Because some of us like to cross our Is and dot our Ts?

I don't think anybody will feel the need to get 3600 CP. But some us are completionists and it would irk us to not be able to do it.

AfkNinja

rb2001 wrote: »

I've said this for a long time. As soon as you start capping things or standardizing what power level players can achieve, you get into defeating the point of varying power levels to begin with.

When everyone hits the cap, no matter what number it is, because that is arbitrary, difficulty and mechanics will be adjusted (maybe not immediately, but certainly) such that everyone is now scaled to the new number.

End result if you look from far away is that nothing has actually changed. We all have the new power level, and we all equal each other, because we all have the same bonuses, and still the only people without that power level are the new players, who will still complain until they get there.

There is no point of a varying power system with limits such that everyone comes to the same power and game difficulty is adjusted for it.

You can't "get more powerful than your opponents" if they get equally more powerful. The result will be the same as if neither of you gained any power. I do not know why this is not immediately obvious.

Also, the CP system and ESO in a general are still fundamentally flawed in that pool sizes scale output. It means that whoever has more CP in any tree is better at everything than anyone with less CP, and diversity goes out the window.

ESO will never have diversity in practice until pool sizes stop scaling power.

In real life, we have diversity because swimmers and runners and slim and fast and have high endurance, but cannot lift 400 pound metal balls, while powerlifters can, but cannot run as fast or for as long as the runner.

Resource pool and power factor are mechanics that can model this concept to a fair degree, and ESO does not use them correctly.

ESO will never produce diversity, because an archer with more stamina hits harder in melee too just because he has more stamina.

ESO should separate pool size and power factor, and it should separate Strength and Endurance, much like, uh, every other game developer has figured out is the right thing to do.

It should also unify the champ menu and reg. skills menu into a single, giant star constellation map, with nodes required to unlock further nodes, and champ % boosts appearing as nodes, as well as active skills and also new passive slottable skills, that get slotted to a passives bar somewhere else.

Until ESO does these things, the combat will never approach balance, and power gains will never result in diversity in specific areas like they should in an RPG where the intent is for players to fill various roles that have pros and cons.

The problem is not and has never been soft caps, the removal of soft caps, VR ranks, Champ points, or whatever else new mechanic the small crowd blames.

The problem is ESO's fundamental modeling of resource pools and power scaling. No amount of capping, removing caps, tweaking will fix this until the modeling approaches reality.

THANK YOU! Someone understands. CP is a stupid system that only rewards the people who grind the most. Add a bar where you equip the passives from CP and LIMIT IT otherwise we all end up the same anyway. CP power creep ruins the content, they can't scale it for everyone from 0cp to 3600 cp.

Waffennacht

The giant star idea is cool, (didn't I see that in a final fantasy game?)

Well if there is a cap... as is... why are there a bunch of posts saying a new player can never catch up? I mean sure it would take a while, but as is, can't eventually a new player get there?

Rioht

Agreed, would love to be able to max only 1 tree from each group.

I know this will never happen, but I would love to see it go diablo 2 style and have your CP's be a permanent selection for you character, encouraging rerolling alts instead of just respecing anytime a new meta comes along.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

iliatha wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

yes i do have a source, and you can look for it because ZoS said they implemented the enlightenment to ensure that people got at least one per day. im not going to do the footwork for you.

AT LEAST ONE per day isnt the same as "it was built for 1 point a day". Are you kidding me ? ^^ Enlightment was implemented to ensure that people get at least one per day, not the CP system. Just bull**.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

also i already pointed out the hours above, it is in theory reachable, but it would take a severe risk to physical/mental health.

Yea and i answered that your thinking might be wrong. I grinded a lot and if i wouldnt have stopped i would reach 3600 cap in a few month. As mentioned i grinded 3 hrs a day. I dont think that 3 hrs of playing per day means physical/mental issues I mean it depends, sure. But its not like "oh you have to be a no-life guy and play at least 16 hrs/day to reach the top in 1 year" or something like that.

dsalter wrote: »

i can see them lowering the cap, increasing the impact per point. so that the cap is 1200 but the same results as if it was 3600

Would be kind of nice, saying that as someone who is far over 1200 cp. But cp system is needed to keep players busy and ignore the fact there is not enough content for many people. Dont think they would do something like that.

one per day was their idea, i remember specifically because it made me laugh.... "yeah one per day right. people will grind the *** out of that notion". people that were grinding "more than they should" have largely had their areas nerfed as a result. so guess what... they will nerf experience to keep you from the goal. with rested, i get 1.5 champion points a day and i don't bother trying, because i know its not worth finishing for net results.

"might be wrong" and "actually wrong" are two different things.... again go grind to the hard cap, come back and brag about 3.6k champion points, and we will all golf-clap for you. its not likely to happen. unless you want to spend days fishing or copious amounts of real money on exp pots (which i again say those were a bad idea).

finally, read your last bit. that is exactly the only point to having the CS..... its up to you how you look at it. people complain about having to grind it, they complain that compared to them other players are OP, and others complain about it being to hard of a cap to reach. spend more time grinding/earning CPs and less time whinning. i couldn't careless about how much more godlier it makes me, its just something to do in a game that has nothing to do. cut the system and id probably cut my play time, there would be literally no point for me to play this game, if its going to be a half-assed cookie cutter of other MMOs more properly built.

rb2001 wrote: »

I've said this for a long time. As soon as you start capping things or standardizing what power level players can achieve, you get into defeating the point of varying power levels to begin with.

When everyone hits the cap, no matter what number it is, because that is arbitrary, difficulty and mechanics will be adjusted (maybe not immediately, but certainly) such that everyone is now scaled to the new number.

End result if you look from far away is that nothing has actually changed. We all have the new power level, and we all equal each other, because we all have the same bonuses, and still the only people without that power level are the new players, who will still complain until they get there.

There is no point of a varying power system with limits such that everyone comes to the same power and game difficulty is adjusted for it.

You can't "get more powerful than your opponents" if they get equally more powerful. The result will be the same as if neither of you gained any power. I do not know why this is not immediately obvious.

Also, the CP system and ESO in a general are still fundamentally flawed in that pool sizes scale output. It means that whoever has more CP in any tree is better at everything than anyone with less CP, and diversity goes out the window.

ESO will never have diversity in practice until pool sizes stop scaling power.

In real life, we have diversity because swimmers and runners and slim and fast and have high endurance, but cannot lift 400 pound metal balls, while powerlifters can, but cannot run as fast or for as long as the runner.

Resource pool and power factor are mechanics that can model this concept to a fair degree, and ESO does not use them correctly.

ESO will never produce diversity, because an archer with more stamina hits harder in melee too just because he has more stamina.

ESO should separate pool size and power factor, and it should separate Strength and Endurance, much like, uh, every other game developer has figured out is the right thing to do.

It should also unify the champ menu and reg. skills menu into a single, giant star constellation map, with nodes required to unlock further nodes, and champ % boosts appearing as nodes, as well as active skills and also new passive slottable skills, that get slotted to a passives bar somewhere else.

Until ESO does these things, the combat will never approach balance, and power gains will never result in diversity in specific areas like they should in an RPG where the intent is for players to fill various roles that have pros and cons.

The problem is not and has never been soft caps, the removal of soft caps, VR ranks, Champ points, or whatever else new mechanic the small crowd blames.

The problem is ESO's fundamental modeling of resource pools and power scaling. No amount of capping, removing caps, tweaking will fix this until the modeling approaches reality.

this is a topic i kinda agree with, that truly there isnt THAT much diversity. i think that is their scapegoat excuse, a long with the "better for the long term of health of the game" excuse. i have played games with this type of system before, this isn't my first time with it. there is rarely a huge variance that would rise to the level of my definition of "diversity". as a PVE tank currently playing in PVP, it has moved me in another direction from the cycle of PVE tank point expenditures. since im a DK hybrid tank, i have had to put more emphasis on fire damage output, more into magicka cost mitigators, and more into spell mitigators, the list goes on. not all DKs will have these same expenditures, with the variables out there for PVE based tanking. im still just a PVEer at heart, ill spend points in the relevant PVP expenses that hold hands with my PVE tanking. quite frankly i don't have the time to grind out the points to niche me into the PVP based needs and i am too lazy to completely revamp my character outside of the champion system to be a "perfect PVP build" player, for limited time PVPing that i do, since ill have to undo all those changes later. the champion points i spend to compensate for my PVP-tankness will just make me a better more rounded PVE-tank. the diversity is there, depending on the perspective of the player and their needs, which is why the bar will have to go up, not down to encourage the diversty (eye roll) in the game. that won't be easy- too much; no one does it; too little; people have nothing to do.

Gerardopg

So I don't get it people don't want veteran ranks because they take to long to v16 and it create imbalances so they want to remove veteran Ranks.... But actually people want to have a cp system that takes much more to reach than the veteran ranks and create more imbalances than the ranks?? Can somebody explain me pls

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

Gerardopg wrote: »

So I don't get it people don't want veteran ranks because they take to long to v16 and it create imbalances so they want to remove veteran Ranks.... But actually people want to have a cp system that takes much more to reach than the veteran ranks and create more imbalances than the ranks?? Can somebody explain me pls

i tell people to forget about VRs and focus on CPs. VRs are good for an attribute point and a skill point.... long term they don't mean ***. getting CPs forces you to get VRs as well, so worry about the long term objective not the short term.

i forgot to mention, that if they devs felt that the CS was too powerful, then they should have nerfed it; not revamp the entire game's mechanics to fit the CS. the CS has only really been relevant to me PVPing. as far as PVE, its been largely irrelevant to me. its lead to to assume, the revamp was just part of a cash grab, to try and get people to sub or buy the IC DLC to really further progression.

Kuroinu

What I don't like are players that expect to be equally rewarded for time they didn't put into something and that these players hate the other players that are being rewarded for the time they did put into something.

This has created the current CP "catch up" nonsense because some people care way too much about what someone else has. I don't even have 100 CP and I couldn't care less what someone else has. I can see people are firing out so called "valid" reasons for change, but in truth, it's envy deep down and it comes from a lot of the PvP "death-anger-wtf-happen" crowd.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

What I don't like are players that expect to be equally rewarded for time they didn't put into something and that these players hate the other players that are being rewarded for the time they did put into something.

This has created the current CP "catch up" nonsense because some people care way too much about what someone else has. I don't even have 100 CP and I couldn't care less what someone else has. I can see people are firing out so called "valid" reasons for change, but in truth, it's envy deep down and it comes from a lot of the PvP "death-anger-wtf-happen" crowd.

i agree. im sitting at 210 points, and i don't get "owned" in PVP. i "suck" at pvp because im a PVE tank and my survivability is high but my DPS is low - not something to debate. sure it takes 5-10 average to kill me, but i KNOW they will kill me; it takes 2-3 good players to kill me. there has only been 1 instance where i thought "wtf... i got owned" but they probably just out CPed me or just out built me. thats fine, ill just get the CPs i need as i play. its so hard to avoid CP gains... but thats all irrelevant.... its a group activity not a solo one.

Suru

Make CP cap at 1200. Its the point where you can max one one whole tree if you wanted. Never have to worry about people being crazy stupid. GG all is fair and well. You know people are ahead of you, but now they are capped and cannot go further. You being behind is no longer an endless hallway without and end but now a Goal to strive for towards end game content.

Each Tree has 400 points, 1200 CP = 100 for every line four times.