How about a slight change to Tel Var stones looting off other players?

TequilaFire

The real problem is IC is a supposed PvP expansion but it doesn't have any PvP objectives other than PK for TV stones.
Everything else in IC is PvE so farming kills for stones becomes the PvP objective.

Prof_Bawbag

code65536 wrote: »

Legedric wrote: »

No, just no. Hell no!

As a PvP player I am already forced to PvE the hell out of this PvE DLC called Imperial City to get the new VR 16 gear.
Killing other players to get stones instead of mind numbing mob grinding is the only thing for me to get progress from actual PvP in the Imperial City.

Dare you ZOS to comfort the whiners and PvE carebears again.

If anything, change it this way:
1-80%
2-85%
3-90%
4-100%

So, instead, have someone else do the mind-numbing grind, and then take their stones? You make it sound like PvE players actually like this grind. Nobody does. You just want your easy ticket out. Well, fine, if you want that easy ticket, then pony up and carry enough stones for a 4x multiplier.

And as someone who does a bit of PvP as well, I prefer sportsmanship in PvP. Yes, I'm one of those nightblades who cloak through the city, but I never attack anyone if I see that all they're doing is PvE. Now, if they're a PvPer, I have no qualms with fighting them, but I don't get any fun out of fighting someone who doesn't know how to PvP and didn't want to PvP, because that isn't real PvP--that would just be me being a d-bag.

I don't see how it is someone being a d-bag. I'm a PvEer and really, really suck at PvP, but I don't go into IC and expect preferential treatment from anyone. I know the risks. It's designed around me being killed by some person wanting to steal my stones. If I didn't want to be ganked or die a cheap death, I wouldn't venture into IC.

It kinda works both ways. People outside Cyrodiil know they can't kill others, so shouldn't be disappointed that they can't do so and I'm assuming everyone knows as soon as you step inside Cyrodiil or IC no-one is going to do you any favours, nor should they. If they do, then it's a bonus, but IC is what it is.

Enodoc

Wait - is this suggestion dependent on the multiplier of the killer or the victim? I'm assuming it's the killer, meaning the victim loses less stones if the killer has less, as that makes reasonable sense. But how would this work when multiple people are involved in the killing? Currently, the 80% loss to the victim is just split evenly among the killers. Would it be proportional?

Because people are throwing suggestions around, here's mine:
x1 - 50%
x2 - 65%
x3 - 80%
x4 - 95%

Now for example, say there were two killers, one with a multi of 1 and one with a multi of 3, and the victim has 1000 stones. Say the amount of stones lost is based on the highest multi of the killers, so the victim loses 80% and there are 800 stones to split up between them. Let's split them by their multiplier. The player with the x1 multi would get 200, and the player with the x3 multi would get 600. I think that would work.

Wolfenbelle

I have always played both and have never been exclusively PvE or PvP. My opinion is that IC is a disappointing mess for both PvP and PvE.

IC should have been a pure PvP zone with objectives similar to Cyrodiil. Instead ZOS decided to up the veteran ranks, gate all the necessary materials and gear behind IC, and throw lots of mobs into the mix. That affects ALL players, not PvE or PvP exclusively. So all players have a stake in there being a fair, equitable approach to the mixing of both types of play in IC.

TV stones are the only true objective for a pure PvP player in IC. That's not the fault of the players, but of ZOS and their game design.

The idea that another player can sit around in stealth and/or behind invisibility pots, follow me around waiting until I've cleared mobs, chests, etc., then kill me (a) while my health is low and my attention is on a mob, or (b) just as I come out of respawn after being killed by a mob, is infuriating. That's not PvP. That's just killing fish in a barrel.

And the idea that I have to run around the sewers mindlessly trying to get huge numbers of trophies and gear to decon is just boring. Far as I see it, ZOS gave all players the shaft with this DLC: PvP, PvE, crafters, traders — everyone.

rfennell_ESO

Enodoc wrote: »

Wait - is this suggestion dependent on the multiplier of the killer or the victim? I'm assuming it's the killer, meaning the victim loses less stones if the killer has less, as that makes reasonable sense. But how would this work when multiple people are involved in the killing? Currently, the 80% loss to the victim is just split evenly among the killers. Would it be proportional?

Because people are throwing suggestions around, here's mine:
x1 - 50%
x2 - 65%
x3 - 80%
x4 - 95%

Now for example, say there were two killers, one with a multi of 1 and one with a multi of 3, and the victim has 1000 stones. Say the amount of stones lost is based on the highest multi of the killers, so the victim loses 80% and there are 800 stones to split up between them. Let's split them by their multiplier. The player with the x1 multi would get 200, and the player with the x3 multi would get 600. I think that would work.

Oh I was definitely talking about the multiplier of the killer. It's basically to prevent pvpers from just banking stones when they get a haul and going back to zero (where if they fail they lose nothing).

I just somewhat arbitrarily came to the %'s, I'm not married to them... they were more an example.

But yah with multiple killers the reward would be Ganked/killers then the modifier. ie if you had 1000 stones and pvped by 4 people all with say a different modifier, it would be that 1000/4 then each ones modifier applying to how many of the 250 stones share they take(in this very unlikely scenario you would lose 63, 125, 188, 250 for a total of 626) . So if you had 4 people gank you, all carrying no stones, by my original %'s you would only lose 25% on each share.

But, like I said... I'm not married to the %'s... that can be figured out independently. I am engaged to the lower % (somewhere around the 25%) for the 1x multiplier though.

rfennell_ESO

Spliffo wrote: »

Your sir are not a ganker

In IC all nightblades are gankers potentially.

I just think some risk versus the reward should be added to the tel var stone gankathon.

As it is I will go after groups of players solo. I'm often successful.

The truth is I have millions of AP and carry a minimum of 10 teleportation stones. If I gank you, and I will go after groups or duo or even raids (stragglers) and I get a big haul... well it's right to a balcony, teleport stone, Bank... and back to ganking. In the event I lose stones, they weren't actually mine to begin with.

Astaris

I'm only vet2 and a noob to any PVP. Yesterday was the first day I entered IC. I started by poking my nose out in the sewers.
I saw a large group taking out mobs, so I followed them and we were closing rifts. I picked up about 300 stones from the boxes.

Later we are closing the large rift in the big circle area of the sewers. (Sorry for my noobness). We were knocking it down, I had charged my ultimate. bang bang its almost dead. The incoming damage suddenly skyrockets, and I cant shield or heal fast enough. I die.

With all the spell effects, and the imprecise targeting (I am on PS/4), I had no idea it was another player who took me out! I lost all but 60 stones, and rezzed back at the sewer base. I was so upset, I logged off.

That was last night. Today I woke up, and I was determined to get my stones back!

ZOS has a winner in this DLC. It is different then any MMO I have ever played.

ArrerBoy

No it's fine as is. As frustrating as it is getting ganked by a player stealing all my stones, it is oh so satisfying to hunt him down and steal it all back, then farm him as he tries to leave spawn.

If it's a 25% loss, then that satisfaction is gone, and a ganker becomes a minor annoyance. If it's 100% then the ganker has no reason to stay, and no reason for me to find him(because he's already scuttled back to his base)

byrom101b16_ESO

Spliffo wrote: »

Ok so you have no need for stones at all so why are you making comments about how they should be acquired, it seems to that you have progressed past this part of content.

Back on topic, those who are asking for the 80% loss to be reduced let me remind you that this was announced as a pvp update with 100% loss from PK. ZOS gave in the pressure from the PVE community and reduced it. If you do not wish to risk stones simply go into a buff campaign.

As for gankers well majority of them spend 99% of their time in a pvp zone and have little wish to farm npcs to be able gather a so called pvp currency so why force them to by making them first gain a multiplier

I can and will comment on what I want, and I choose to because I find certain types of blinkered PvP fanatics to be entirely self-serving, dismissive of others and laughably short-sighted. My progression is irrelevant to that opinion.

If PvP players don't risk anything, and choose to concentrate on ezemode kills, then their skill-less antics shouldn't reward them with anything. The WINNER of a fight should get a reward, and the exploiters of the current TV Stone system don't risk anything - so should a much better player beat a sewer grate ganker etc. they get nothing for their efforts, whereas the noob or lazy ganker loads up with stones from targets with little chance to defend themselves.

Anyway this is all perfectly obvious, I'm not going to repeat myself again.

Your last point is utterly irrelevant. having lower rewards for no multiplier and higher rewards for higher multipliers (in terms of % of PK target's stones) doesn't force PvP'ers of that sort to attack mobs at all.

Stop trying to muddy the water with points that don't mean what you try to make them seem.

Lower risk should equal lower reward from PvP. Higher risk should equal higher reward for PvP.

Any hardcore PvP player wanting something else is trying to get something for nothing, and predictably complaining about how they won't be able to on the forums, whilst desperately trying to make their self-serving complaints sound like a valid point about 'fairness'.

rfennell_ESO

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

I can and will comment on what I want, and I choose to because I find certain types of blinkered PvP fanatics to be entirely self-serving, dismissive of others and laughably short-sighted. My progression is irrelevant to that opinion.

If PvP players don't risk anything, and choose to concentrate on ezemode kills, then their skill-less antics shouldn't reward them with anything. The WINNER of a fight should get a reward, and the exploiters of the current TV Stone system don't risk anything - so should a much better player beat a sewer grate ganker etc. they get nothing for their efforts, whereas the noob or lazy ganker loads up with stones from targets with little chance to defend themselves.

Anyway this is all perfectly obvious, I'm not going to repeat myself again.

Your last point is utterly irrelevant. having lower rewards for no multiplier and higher rewards for higher multipliers (in terms of % of PK target's stones) doesn't force PvP'ers of that sort to attack mobs at all.

Stop trying to muddy the water with points that don't mean what you try to make them seem.

Lower risk should equal lower reward from PvP. Higher risk should equal higher reward for PvP.

Any hardcore PvP player wanting something else is trying to get something for nothing, and predictably complaining about how they won't be able to on the forums, whilst desperately trying to make their self-serving complaints sound like a valid point about 'fairness'.

That's exactly my sentiments.

I find issue with the fact that if you fend off the ganker and beat them, 9/10 you get nothing. With the advantage of being the ganker and others at the disadvantage of being unprepared or otherwise in combat with pve, they get their stones.

It's not very fair.

I say it and I'm mostly the ganker, because it's true.

I don't expect a change to occur, but if ZOS listens and are planning something similar in Orsinium... I think my "solution" has some merit and should be contemplated.

If you want all the stones or somewhere in the current vicinity of stone loss, you should have some stones (literally and puntastically). It's trivial to gank and bank, and under the current system it's actually the prudent and logical thing to do.

Farorin

Firerock2 wrote: »

Farorin wrote: »

The only changes to TV stone loss from PVP that I support are increasing the loss rate.

Then what is the risk for PvP players who can go and get tons of stones without carrying any of their own?

The fact that they will lose the stones they get from killing someone, if someone kills them? I mean, it's not like you kill someone, get their stones, and then BAM automatically they are yours and you have no risk of losing them.

Why ask the question when it pretty much answers it's self?

byrom101b16_ESO

Farorin wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Farorin wrote: »

The only changes to TV stone loss from PVP that I support are increasing the loss rate.

Then what is the risk for PvP players who can go and get tons of stones without carrying any of their own?

The fact that they will lose the stones they get from killing someone, if someone kills them? I mean, it's not like you kill someone, get their stones, and then BAM automatically they are yours and you have no risk of losing them.

Why ask the question when it pretty much answers it's self?

Very easy to circumvent with a decent bank account of APs...

... one big hit of TV Stones and port before your opponent comes back for revenge.

The question that doesn't 'answer itself' is why you hadn't worked this out!?

BalticBlues

Legedric wrote: »

Dare you ZOS to comfort the whiners and PvE carebears again.

WHO is the "carebear" here?

Is it the PVE player, unused to PVP, who is forced by ZOS into a hostile ganking environment to gear up?

Or is it YOU, the PVP pro, who kills these people easily to steal all their stones and then use a "bring me home" scroll you buy for nothing with your thousands of APs? To protect you from other PVP pros...

For many PVP players unused to PVP who want to gear up, the IC is a nightmare.
Their hope is a protected environment via gated access.

eliisra

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Spliffo wrote: »

Your sir are not a ganker

In IC all nightblades are gankers potentially.

I just think some risk versus the reward should be added to the tel var stone gankathon.

Yeah it's true and kinda hypocritical. Gankers talking about risk/reward, yet they aren't the ones taking any risks.

Fighting these relatively strong NPC's in the open when solo, that's when you take risks in IC. Cloaking around and waiting to engage until odds are in your favour, is only reward. About as risky as running around with a 20-man group.

Would be funny if NPC's participation and dmg counted as players. Jump someone with 10 mobs on him, ok you're pro, but have to share stones with all the NPC's that "helped"

Than no more free stones for bad gankers, only skilled ones would get a high reward. No more greatly outnumbering your opponent, by taking advantage of NPC aggro. No more dropping of one killingblow and getting 80% stones, even though the pack of NPC's did most of the job and dmg.

I dont care about stones at all at this point. What to use them on? But it's definitely frustrating trying to do the quest or grinding a bit, than always some guy in sneak waiting for you to engage NPC's and get low on resources, before attacking lol.

rfennell_ESO

BalticBlues wrote: »

Or is it YOU, the PVP pro, who kills these people easily to steal all their stones and then use a "bring me home" scroll you buy for nothing with your thousands of APs? To protect you from other PVP pros...

Truth be told, many of us have millions not thousands of AP. That's merely as the casual player that does nothing but pvp level. The hardcore play all days have tens of millions of AP.

Oh and really nothing to spend it on.

So keeping a 10 stack of Teleportation stones is easy.

Spearshard

PVE carebear here, just adding my opinion. I mostly, pve, I did enough pvp pre Ic to get caltrops, and it was fun and exciting. The biggest issue, as far as I can tell, isn't the transfer of stones after death, ganking, or any of that (this has all been part of pvp since this game released), but the gear grind. IC has left most everyone pissed, especially pve'ers. You can say "well just buy the mats! no one is forcing you into IC to get your gear." Well that is only partly true, mostly it isn't.
The amount of mats it takes to complete a new v16 set is obsenely high, add in all the resins, tannins, and tempers to upgrade and the price is so astronomical it could put the US treasury back in black. OK, a bit of an exaggeration, but you get my point. So, everyone, pve, and pvp is forced to grind in the sewers to get trophies and decon material. Honestly, I don't even care about the stones, I don't need them to buy sets, and getting the few mats from them is such a drop in the bucket that I don't even care.
Honestly the biggest frustration for pve'ers forced into the IC grind is constantly being interrupted when you are trying to get gear for decon. You want the stones, hell take them, it's just frustrating when I'm trying to get mats for the gear that is gated in IC. I don't want to pvp, hell I see another player I go somewhere else, or if i'm attacked I'll fight back, and it's usually 50/50 depending on how low on hp I was from mobs if I win/lose. I don't want to pvp, I just want to be left in peace to kill mobs to get gear, keep the damn stones. After I get all the mats I need I won't set foot in imperial city.
The whole argument between pve and pvp could have been avoided if the lvl cap wasn't raised forcing the grind for mats. that way, if you wanted to get the sets, you would have to fight for them same as before. Pve'ers understand its a "pvp" zone, but that doesn't change the fact that everyone is forced to go there to gear up. And it certainly doesn't mean we have to like it.

MadHatterMike

Let's not even start on the PVP gankers who sit outside the sewer entrances, and right outside our "base" entrance inside so that use PVErs can't even go grind, or gank us as were coming back to bank the stones

BlackEar

Legedric wrote: »

No, just no. Hell no!

As a PvP player I am already forced to PvE the hell out of this PvE DLC called Imperial City to get the new VR 16 gear.
Killing other players to get stones instead of mind numbing mob grinding is the only thing for me to get progress from actual PvP in the Imperial City.

Dare you ZOS to comfort the whiners and PvE carebears again.

If anything, change it this way:
1-80%
2-85%
3-90%
4-100%

As a PVE player with a sense of good gameplay design, I agree.

phaseadept

It's the loss of stones itself that has caused most of the difficulty. Nobody wants to stay and fight, nobody wants to actually lose their stones after long period of grinding. So everyone turns into chickens unless it's a gank squad or a mob.

Nobody really wants to play outside of IC because it's either a Zerg vs 10 or PvDoor.

If the loss of tel var was drastically reduced, like 25% loss people might stay and play.

I only use the stones for materials so it's never a big loss, just annoying that there are no real fights. You're either at a significant advantage or a significant disadvantage, or running through mobs chasing mist form.

myrrrorb14_ESO

Nice idea which moves aling in the same direction that the devs put into place , but takes it a step further. I like Endocs numbers a bit better, but good suggestion!

Enodoc wrote: »

Wait - is this suggestion dependent on the multiplier of the killer or the victim? I'm assuming it's the killer, meaning the victim loses less stones if the killer has less, as that makes reasonable sense. But how would this work when multiple people are involved in the killing? Currently, the 80% loss to the victim is just split evenly among the killers. Would it be proportional?

Because people are throwing suggestions around, here's mine:
x1 - 50%
x2 - 65%
x3 - 80%
x4 - 95%

Now for example, say there were two killers, one with a multi of 1 and one with a multi of 3, and the victim has 1000 stones. Say the amount of stones lost is based on the highest multi of the killers, so the victim loses 80% and there are 800 stones to split up between them. Let's split them by their multiplier. The player with the x1 multi would get 200, and the player with the x3 multi would get 600. I think that would work.

Only complucation I see is with multiple attackers at different levels. Any suggedtion there?

rfennell_ESO

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

Nice idea which moves aling in the same direction that the devs put into place , but takes it a step further. I like Endocs numbers a bit better, but good suggestion!



Only complucation I see is with multiple attackers at different levels. Any suggedtion there?

You would only have to divide by attackers getting stone credit and then apply the multiplier to each share.

PBpsy

I couldn't agree more. TV generation from mobs i.e crappy grinding should be required from all player or none. Parasitic gameplay should be discouraged. I would actually go further. Less than 100 stones on you = no pk stone gains. The relentless kamikaze AOE trolls in the districts are quite ridiculous.

AngryNord

mhasanbulli wrote: »

Legedric wrote: »

No, just no. Hell no!

As a PvP player I am already forced to PvE the hell out of this PvE DLC called Imperial City to get the new VR 16 gear.
Killing other players to get stones instead of mind numbing mob grinding is the only thing for me to get progress from actual PvP in the Imperial City.

Dare you ZOS to comfort the whiners and PvE carebears again.

If anything, change it this way:
1-80%
2-85%
3-90%
4-100%

What's up with you PVP guys calling PVE people carebears? Jesus. Relax. OP is making a suggestion.

Don't feed the trolls

byrom101b16_ESO

PBpsy wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. TV generation from mobs i.e crappy grinding should be required from all player or none. Parasitic gameplay should be discouraged. I would actually go further. Less than 100 stones on you = no pk stone gains. The relentless kamikaze AOE trolls in the districts are quite ridiculous.

Agreed - the zero stones kamakazi brigade show the high % loot/no risk suggestions for what they are - utter game ruining garbage.

MadHatterMike

AngryNord wrote: »

mhasanbulli wrote: »

Legedric wrote: »

No, just no. Hell no!

As a PvP player I am already forced to PvE the hell out of this PvE DLC called Imperial City to get the new VR 16 gear.
Killing other players to get stones instead of mind numbing mob grinding is the only thing for me to get progress from actual PvP in the Imperial City.

Dare you ZOS to comfort the whiners and PvE carebears again.

If anything, change it this way:
1-80%
2-85%
3-90%
4-100%

What's up with you PVP guys calling PVE people carebears? Jesus. Relax. OP is making a suggestion.

Don't feed the trolls

the PVP players calling us PVE carebears, are the ones ruining IC for everyone, camping and ganking everyone for their stones

Artis

@Legedric
But grinding mobs is not pve. It's just that - grind. PvE players don't enjoy it just like you, they like fights with awesome mechanics, that are challenging...for example, vet ICP boss fights are pretty tough. But grinding mobs.. NO ONE likes it.

PBpsy wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. TV generation from mobs i.e crappy grinding should be required from all player or none. Parasitic gameplay should be discouraged. I would actually go further. Less than 100 stones on you = no pk stone gains. The relentless kamikaze AOE trolls in the districts are quite ridiculous.

This. No idea why you would encourage players whose fun is ruining fun for others.

Legedric

I never said PvE players like to grind, I am just saying that I as a pvp player don't like it

rfennell_ESO

Artemis wrote: »

@Legedric
But grinding mobs is not pve. It's just that - grind. PvE players don't enjoy it just like you, they like fights with awesome mechanics, that are challenging...for example, vet ICP boss fights are pretty tough. But grinding mobs.. NO ONE likes it.

PBpsy wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. TV generation from mobs i.e crappy grinding should be required from all player or none. Parasitic gameplay should be discouraged. I would actually go further. Less than 100 stones on you = no pk stone gains. The relentless kamikaze AOE trolls in the districts are quite ridiculous.

This. No idea why you would encourage players whose fun is ruining fun for others.

You can't really make an argument about "whose fun is ruining fun for others" in a pvp centric game like this.

But you can say that some risk for the reward should be present, Somewhere in this thread is a something of a solution to it, but in the case of the hardcore ganker, they will gank you with no reward to be had.