The current Truth of Archery in PVE

ADarklore

Bloodgharm wrote: »

It's a flawed system when one skill tree gets abandoned just because it can't put out the same numbers even if overall, it helps out the group.

This is a good point. It always amazes me how either Class trees or Weapon trees have only ONE really good skill, leaving you with several other weak or outright useless skills. Take DW... right now the ONLY truly useful, high damage ability is Steel Tornado... the others are, well, meh. Then 2H... sure a lot of people use Wrecking Blow, but how many players choose 2H as the second weapon JUST for Rally?!? Then, people who try to actually create a build around fully using a weapon or class tree get criticized because they're not min/maxing... instead, they are playing the game, say it isn't so, just for fun.

nordsavage

Unless fighting the final bosses in runs like DC or FG, I let out very long sigh of disappointment knowing that person is more than likely not going to break 5 digit dps. Knowing it is even more likely they will get 3-7k dps.

Bloodgharm

ADarklore wrote: »

Bloodgharm wrote: »

It's a flawed system when one skill tree gets abandoned just because it can't put out the same numbers even if overall, it helps out the group.

This is a good point. It always amazes me how either Class trees or Weapon trees have only ONE really good skill, leaving you with several other weak or outright useless skills. Take DW... right now the ONLY truly useful, high damage ability is Steel Tornado... the others are, well, meh. Then 2H... sure a lot of people use Wrecking Blow, but how many players choose 2H as the second weapon JUST for Rally?!? Then, people who try to actually create a build around fully using a weapon or class tree get criticized because they're not min/maxing... instead, they are playing the game, say it isn't so, just for fun.

It really is sad that everyone is too focused on min/maxing. It does no favors for the beginners who want some tips on how to build their characters. They recieve a fully fleshed out V16 build that centers around dps in endgame content. The noob then gets tunnel vision trying to copy that endgame build to the T and they don't learn for themselves the basics of combat mechanics and how each of the skills synergize with each other. It's amazing how few leveling builds are out there compared to a game like SWTOR. Plus build diversity is at an all time low atm. I feel like the whole skill/weapon damage scaling component needs to be tweaked. Right now, there's no such thing as a hybrid build. Which is depressing because you could make some really great builds if we could mingle stamina and magicka skills without having to worry about damage not scaling.

Miwerton

As I have said before the main problem is the combat team (granted the other groups do pull theyre weight with artistic decor , lore etc), and main reason is theyre lack of selfcriticism, thinking that whatever they thought of is not flawed in any way.

Where as others would go: I have a good idea, but let me just think about it first to make sure there arent any great flaws in it.
Combat team : I have a good idea, Trololololol

ADarklore

Sadly, @Miwerton is correct. I've said it all along, that game developers tend to put their EGOS first, and the overall gaming community second. It is as if they feel they are designing the game for THEM and how THEY like/want to play- but I honestly doubt they go home at night or on weekends and spend 8-10 hours playing ESO.

I've run into this problem with engineers in the real world, most won't accept that anything they've designed is possibly flawed or could be better designed.

I think STEP ONE for a game developer should be, "How can I make this work for as many of the different types of gamers out there?" Instead of, "How would I like this to work for me?"

As the saying goes, "The needs of the many outweigh the few"... including themselves.

Bloodgharm

I believe that all game developers should be required to watch all 200-something episodes of Extra Credits before being allowed to touch game making software. Those guys really know how to get into the nitty-gritty of how games work and what's best for the gamers. All while doing it in fun, little 10-20 minute segments.

TheNephilimCrow

I have to strongly disagree with you. I have a Stam Nightblade that mainly DWs and uses Bow as backup. Even as a backup, my bow can still take down VR16 players. Ever consider that maybe its not the bow, but your play-style? I'm using a Breton for that matter and it still excels.

Miwerton

TheNephilimCrow wrote: »

I have to strongly disagree with you. I have a Stam Nightblade that mainly DWs and uses Bow as backup. Even as a backup, my bow can still take down VR16 players. Ever consider that maybe its not the bow, but your play-style? I'm using a Breton for that matter and it still excels.

As I have said before that is pvp, not pve which is the topic here.

butoijo

Just read interesting bow sorc

BdCHighVoltage wrote: »

I want to present you this build i've create by myself (excuse me if it was already created by someone else)

This build is al about criticals.

It's a Sorcerer khajiit build,with Bow and dual wield.

At the moment i'm level 36 with 67% critical and i can kill without problems enemies in IC.

so... let's start.

Primary bar:




Bombard: useful for multiple hits and for immobilize enemies. Combo with scorched earth.

Scorched Earth: for AoE and DoT damage.

Snipe: The primary ability.Great damage and great healing.

Critical Surge: The centre of this build.+20% bonus damage, 50% healing on crit.

Evil hunter: Critical percentage and useful against daedra and undead.

Ultimate - Flawless Dawnbreaker : very cheap ultimate with great passive. damage,damage,damage.


Secondary Bar:





Steel Tornado: Great AoE damage, great healing.

Blood Craze: this ability is just a fillup. HoT and DoT damage, and it has an incredibly low stamina cost.

Thundering Presence: Useful for AoE damage and Resistance.

Critical Surge: The centre of this build.+20% bonus damage, 50% healing on crit.

Evil hunter: Critical percentage and useful against daedra and undead.

Ultimate - Absorbtion field: Support ultimate.It stun all enemies and gives regeneration Bonus to all stats, plus movement speed.


Passives:

All bow passives

All DW passives

All Khajiit Passives

All Medium Armor passives


Storm callind passives:

Capacitator

Energized

Expert Mage

Dark Magic passives:

Unholy knowledge

Persistence

Daedric Summoning Passives:

Rebate

Fighters guild passives:

Slayer

Banish the wicked


Armor

7 Set of Medium Armor

5x Hunding's Rage (1 dagger)

4x Night Mother's Gaze (1 dagger)


this is my very first Build guide, so if i missed something feel free to tell me.

Thank you

willymchilybily

I like the Bow and feel it is balanced in terms of risk/rewards, for damage against regular mobs, and PVP.
It is only in end game PVE boss fights it is a less attractive option. Ergo I dont agree with the initial asssesment of the OP. id go as far as to say it is one of the few weapons without any "duff" skills in its skill tree (like 2H).

Its just a shame peoples view on how to use it is limited to dps potential on its own instead of maximising its potential for synergy within a build or set up, or in the correct situation.

Resipsa131

ADarklore wrote: »

Not to be rude, but why even ask this question if you're going to pick an Argonian "just for kicks"? In that, you're already saying you're not very serious about the build in the first place.

Because I'm not into Min/Maxing and want to play as an Argonian but wanted some advise on some class synergies that work well with Bows, thanks for the advice kappa. I hit last night V3 with the Argonian DK/Archer and really enjoy it.

grumlins

willymchilybily wrote: »

I like the Bow and feel it is balanced in terms of risk/rewards, for damage against regular mobs, and PVP.
It is only in end game PVE boss fights it is a less attractive option. Ergo I dont agree with the initial asssesment of the OP. id go as far as to say it is one of the few weapons without any "duff" skills in its skill tree (like 2H).

Its just a shame peoples view on how to use it is limited to dps potential on its own instead of maximising its potential for synergy within a build or set up, or in the correct situation.

You just admitted that it's not good in boss fights which is a purely PVE system which means you actually do agree with my post because that's what this thread is about.

Gern_Verkheart

grumlins wrote: »

What archery should feel like in PVE



What it actually feels like in PVE

God, this is too freaking accurate. Bow is so underwhelming.

Bloodgharm wrote: »

You're right, but I will say that the bow has some good cc skills as well as the only weapon skills with built in poison damage options. Honestly, I like it where it's at now. I just don't think that they could get away with buffing damage or anything just because it would make bow ridiculously OP.

I think the problem is actually that it is too reliant on poison damage. Bow gets very good when you go heavily into thaumaturge, and it is people that do this that feel like bow is in a good place. However, putting most of your points into Thaumaturge and fewer in Mighty gimps you on other stamina weapons. Most stamina users put more points into Mighty, and it is these players that feel that bow is weak.

In short, bow is too reliant on the Thaumaturge champ point option, and I would like to see morphs of the poison dealing bow ablities that remove the poison effect and instead make them just power attacks,

Toc de Malsvi

"Bow is a great utility weapon for setting your target up, especially on Nightblade. Huge crit from stealth, poison injection to get more damage ticking over and my target is 3/4 dead already."

This is definitely true for NB stam builds, my NB stam vet 4 rocks pvp with a bow and does fine in pve. However I have found this doesn't work quite as well on my DK and Sorc stam builds, no matter how much weapon dmg and crit I stack and even having the DK's Molten Armaments my vet 16 DK rarely gets as good an opening as my vet 4 Stam NB and I cannot find a good reason why they are so significantly different. Also gap creating is far behind gap closing when it comes to skills, while bombard is fairly unreliable in pvp due to facing issues and ground obstacles, neither magnum shot or draining shot will do you much good as once used you then have at least 5s before you can use them again meanwhile melee builds can spam their gap closer without proccing a cooldown. Snipe is both interruptable and has 1s cast time with long flight time, making it great for ganking AFK players or players who are engaged with someone else, however it will rarely put down an experienced player of any level who is actually paying attention.

As for PVE I feel like the bow is okay, it has very high single target damage potential however its AOE is lack luster. Bombard plus Arrow Barrage is great for solo play or group play where the dps is not that high however if you have other high aoe dps you will not be able to compete as all you can really do is spam Bombard as things explode. Certainly it could be better and as a player who primarily focuses on bow builds I would love it, but I don't feel like its so bad as to be excluded from groups. Bow dps can be hard I think on players who lack a good understanding of combat mechanics and skill synergies.

Toc de Malsvi

Changing the way Scatter Shot interacts with CC immunity would greatly improve the bow for pvp, if Scatter Shot procced a shorter CC immunity maybe 2 seconds or so it could still create gaps consistently without being so OP as to be able to keep melee at range permanently.

For AOE put Arrow Barrages damage up front, you still have the travel time as it falls but instead of waiting on long relatively weak dot have all the damage either instant after travel time or a short 2-3 seconds very strong dot. Also front load Acid Spray's dot component to 2-3 seconds making more of a choice between CC and hard hitting damage.

willymchilybily

grumlins wrote: »

willymchilybily wrote: »

I like the Bow and feel it is balanced in terms of risk/rewards, for damage against regular mobs, and PVP.
It is only in end game PVE boss fights it is a less attractive option. Ergo I dont agree with the initial asssesment of the OP. id go as far as to say it is one of the few weapons without any "duff" skills in its skill tree (like 2H).

Its just a shame peoples view on how to use it is limited to dps potential on its own instead of maximising its potential for synergy within a build or set up, or in the correct situation.

You just admitted that it's not good in boss fights which is a purely PVE system which means you actually do agree with my post because that's what this thread is about.

hehe, if that's how you want to interpret it that's fine with me. I just think the bow is underrated more often than it is underpowered until you come to top tier PVE DPS, but then in that situation it is true for the majority of stamina DPS, and other ranged weapon DPS, (destruction staff). Most good range DPS is from class skills so is class specific. eg. overload, merciless resolve weaving. i don't consider it exclusive to bows.

Xvorg

I used to have a Bow DK. It was fun, especially when using scorched earth and Talons in PVE, but that was on 1.3 or 1.4

I've never tried it again, maybe with the changes to dunmer flame talent it can be an option, who knows?

Let me think:
Bar 1 FoV/evil hunter, talons, scorched earth, burning/deep breath, GDB/Igneous shield/spike armor/ash cloud, U Standard
Bar 2 FoV/Evil hunter, Molten weapons (heavy attacks), poison injection, silver shards, GDB/Igneous shield/spike armor. U Kame Hame Ha

I don't think he´s gonna be a killer, neither he will reach endgame with that first bar, but I'm pretty sure he will be fun enough xD

revonine

Bloodgharm wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Your feeling this because snipe is so slow. Really that's the whole problem with the skill line.

When your draw your bow that far back, the arrow should be instant. Not some arc shot crap.

I feel like they could change the poison morph of snipe into an instant cast ability albeit with slightly reduced damage. That might appease the people who believe that bow doesn't have a decent direct damage skill. Personally, if you want to spam a ranged stamina ability, just get silver shards from the fighter's guild line.

Came in to say I very much like this suggestion.

Trihugger

I wish every single one of you "proponents" for bow being in a good place vICP and vWGT runs full of bow dps.

Get over yourselves.

By far though the best post was

ADarklore wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

What type of class do you recommend for a bow build? Thinking about DK as you can reflect, and use stone fist as some CC? Thinking about running one with an argonian just for kicks

Consider this... because the Bow does less damage, you need to spam the abilities more, which means you need either high Stamina or high Stamina Regen along with increased weapon damage and/or weapon crit. I think this is why some people become frustrated with Bow, because they expect to be able to kill enemies with one or two hits like they can with 2H or DW, but with the Bow, depending on the enemy, it can take a LOT of hits- particularly Group Bosses and such. In that, you tend to drain your Stamina very quickly leaving you only with regular attacks until your Stamina regens.

I mean just lol! In *trying* to defend the bow he has extolled that to make bow work (which he admittedly says does substantially less damage than alternatives) you NEED to pick your race around it. Really? I need to pick my race around a weapon for no other reason than the weapon is in THAT bad of a place?

I'm too lazy to quote but a standard tactic to stay healable in many boss fights is to hang out in melee range for healing. Not every healer is a Templar that will heal from down town so you can be your cute little tights wearing archer self off in some BFE corner pew pewing your cute widdle toothpicks.

Dude. You're done. You're all done. Bow sucks in PvE and anyone running it as their main weapon is a wasted space in PvE content. That's the PvE problem being discussed here, and anyone of a different "opinion" is just wrong, likely one of the toothpick shooters mentioned earlier.

Van_0S

Alina_Scarbridge wrote: »

Well, I disagree with you. My bows feel pretty deadly, and I'm not a min maxer.
(V4 Bosmer Templar, split between mag/stam/health and bows on both bars)

Yep, CP made the difference.