The current Truth of Archery in PVE

grumlins

What archery should feel like in PVE



What it actually feels like in PVE

Alina_Scarbridge

Well, I disagree with you. My bows feel pretty deadly, and I'm not a min maxer.
(V4 Bosmer Templar, split between mag/stam/health and bows on both bars)

Bloodgharm

You're right, but I will say that the bow has some good cc skills as well as the only weapon skills with built in poison damage options. Honestly, I like it where it's at now. I just don't think that they could get away with buffing damage or anything just because it would make bow ridiculously OP.

tisch28

If they fixed skill animations and such (I'm looking at you spread arrow skill whatever your name is) it would be in a better place imo. Also if we had a decent single target spam skill like a rapid shot type thing would make me main bow and only bow I feel. Else it's just a range deal for when I can't be in melee. As soon as I can go melee again I do since it's a better dps option with better aoe and single target skills.

2cents

Bloodgharm

tisch28 wrote: »

If they fixed skill animations and such (I'm looking at you spread arrow skill whatever your name is) it would be in a better place imo. Also if we had a decent single target spam skill like a rapid shot type thing would make me main bow and only bow I feel. Else it's just a range deal for when I can't be in melee. As soon as I can go melee again I do since it's a better dps option with better aoe and single target skills.

2cents

Poison injection is pretty much the spammable bow skill. It is also somewhat of an execute (though it could be better). Are you talking about a skill like rapid strikes?

Daveheart

The only problem I currently see with bow is that Morag Tong, Hawkeye, and master weapons only scale up to VR14, yet they've still got the best synergy for a bow build.

ADarklore

Bloodgharm wrote: »

Poison injection is pretty much the spammable bow skill. It is also somewhat of an execute (though it could be better). Are you talking about a skill like rapid strikes?

Technically it's not, since every hit on the same target resets the poison DoT... so the only thing you're gaining from spamming is the initial hit damage. When I use Poison Injection, I wait for the full 10/s DoT to complete before using it again; with multiple enemies, I will hit each one once with PI and allow the DoT to run while spamming Bombard.

As an avid Bow user, I say that the Bow is awesome as is... and players who prefer to only range know how to use it well. A lot also depends on your Class and how you have your build set-up.

Miwerton

The main problem is that the current nitwitts in the combat team dont know much about bows builds (or stamina for that reason to) Sure you can do some good damage now and then, but its not the most optimal damage since the bow gives lower weapon damage, compared to dual and 2handed, (magicka users can just dualwield for spell dam and use its wide array of class skills, which are few amongst a stam user). Its also sad since all bosses have the same ressistance, spell and armor res, Which makes it boring since there is no boss that have high spell res but low phys res or vice versa making all the bosses the same in defense stat and the only difference is theyre health and mechanics.

ADarklore

So people are complaining that melee weapons which require being in direct contact with an enemy gives better damage than someone who is a long distance away and can utilize mobility to rapidly strike a target without even coming near them?

Obviously melee players have to worry about survivability a lot more than range players, so clearly they should be doing more damage IMO. Bows should do less damage because we can avoid most enemy strikes by maintaining distance yet doing damage at the same time.

I often wonder if those complaining about the Bow are players who don't know how to use it properly? If you're going to run Bow, then you should be a player who prefers staying at range and utilizing the run and hit approach. If you're a melee player who wants to run Bow 'for fun' then you probably aren't going to utilize the strengths that Bows offer- mainly being able to stay away from enemies in the first place.

With that being said, again I go back to Class selection. There are definitely Classes that are more melee-centric than range, so choosing a melee-centric Class and then trying to utilize a range weapon might not work so well.

Alucardo

Bow is a great utility weapon for setting your target up, especially on Nightblade. Huge crit from stealth, poison injection to get more damage ticking over and my target is 3/4 dead already. Follow up with ambush and surprise attack (if they are still alive from the ambush) and that's all she wrote. The bow as it stands feels far more than just a nerf gun, and is a force to be reckoned with.

Miwerton

Alucardo wrote: »

Bow is a great utility weapon for setting your target up, especially on Nightblade. Huge crit from stealth, poison injection to get more damage ticking over and my target is 3/4 dead already. Follow up with ambush and surprise attack (if they are still alive from the ambush) and that's all she wrote. The bow as it stands feels far more than just a nerf gun, and is a force to be reckoned with.

That is in pvp, not pve which is the topic here. Sure in pvp it works great, but then again players have less health and ressistances than a boss, and there is still the problem of that mighty doesnt add extra damage against bosses, and only piercing does it, an old problem they still havent bothered to fix.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

grumlins

Bloodgharm wrote: »

You're right, but I will say that the bow has some good cc skills as well as the only weapon skills with built in poison damage options. Honestly, I like it where it's at now. I just don't think that they could get away with buffing damage or anything just because it would make bow ridiculously OP.

It has great potential for CC that is correct however there are some serious problems with it's direct damage and the only thing to blame for this are adjustments made for the purpose of PVP.

It's similar to what I've seen in other MMO's out there, they want the weapon of war in game, however, they don't seem to realize the deadly nature of the weapon IRL and thus fail to effectively balance it in PVE. So it ends up being only a shadow of itself. It's like traps in this game right now, PVE Trap Spells that are meant to do large amounts of damage are completely useless for the same reason.

And no I'm not talking about the fighter trap however the fighter's guild trap is actually the only one doing close to what it should be doing, being deadly, which is sad because it's malfunctioning. If you have to rely on a bug to reveal the real potential of certain fighting styles then you're not balancing properly.

winterbornb14_ESO

The Bow line sucks compared to most all other except maybe 1h.

Bloodgharm

grumlins wrote: »

Bloodgharm wrote: »

You're right, but I will say that the bow has some good cc skills as well as the only weapon skills with built in poison damage options. Honestly, I like it where it's at now. I just don't think that they could get away with buffing damage or anything just because it would make bow ridiculously OP.

It has great potential for CC that is correct however there are some serious problems with it's direct damage and the only thing to blame for this are adjustments made for the purpose of PVP.

It's similar to what I've seen in other MMO's out there, they want the weapon of war in game, however, they don't seem to realize the deadly nature of the weapon IRL and thus fail to effectively balance it in PVE. So it ends up being only a shadow of itself. It's like traps in this game right now, PVE Trap Spells that are meant to do large amounts of damage are completely useless for the same reason.

And no I'm not talking about the fighter trap however the fighter's guild trap is actually the only one doing close to what it should be doing, being deadly, which is sad because it's malfunctioning. If you have to rely on a bug to reveal the real potential of certain fighting styles then you're not balancing properly.

The problem with having realistic damage from [known] deadly weapons is that it would turn power creep into a power stampede. For pvp this would boil down to whoever attacks first, wins. Ultimately, it would turn Cyro and IC into a NB snipefest.

In pve, it would make any and all encounters a boring face-roll. Remember how in Skyrim, you could stack weapon damage so high that you could literally snipe any regular dragon with one bow shot? That's what this game would turn into. It would be stupid boring. It worked for Skyrim because you were the only PC. In an MMO, it's not just you and you can't make everyone grossly OP. "When everyone is super, no one will be". I can understand buffing the damage on bow skills by a tiny amount, but there is less inherent risk associated with sniping from the back. There's got to be a proper risk/reward curve and melee weapons have much more risk associated with them so they get more damage.

No one weapon type or skill should be able to one-shot everything because it ruins the challenge. If you want no challenge, go back to skyrim where you can buff or gimp your character how you want. While bows may not feel powerful here, I can assure you that they are pretty decently balanced.

Sharmony

A 12% reduction to damage in melee range is the main reason bows are pretty much unusable in PvE, hence they're only used for Master's Bow for the weapon damage bonus. Having played bow's since launch, I gave up on them after half way through 1.5, I have repeatedly gone back to theory craft them but they are still haunted by the same basic founding issues.

byrom101b16_ESO

Bow builds and passives were great in Age of Conan MMO.

Zenimax should employ the relevant dev. from that team to sort the bow out.

GreenSoup2HoT

Your feeling this because snipe is so slow. Really that's the whole problem with the skill line.

When your draw your bow that far back, the arrow should be instant. Not some arc shot crap.

Bloodgharm

Sharmony wrote: »

A 12% reduction to damage in melee range is the main reason bows are pretty much unusable in PvE, hence they're only used for Master's Bow for the weapon damage bonus. Having played bow's since launch, I gave up on them after half way through 1.5, I have repeatedly gone back to theory craft them but they are still haunted by the same basic founding issues.

Quit trying to cook the numbers in your favor. It's not a 12% damage reduction up close, it's a damage buff when attacking from range. If you need to gain some distance, use magnum shot and roll dodge away. It's pretty simple. If you're a nb, couple this with crippling grasp and you'll be super fast.

Visemere

Alina_Scarbridge wrote: »

Well, I disagree with you. My bows feel pretty deadly, and I'm not a min maxer.
(V4 Bosmer Templar, split between mag/stam/health and bows on both bars)

would you share your build? im a templar quickly approaching VR16 and looking to try something different in pvp pve

tisch28

The biggest problem with range in general is how the game skill system is setup. In other games you had to either have a lot of gap closers or use them wisely which allowed range users to use pushbacks to better effect and there became an outplay factor of skill management and keeping a cool head. With a no CD environment and gap closers available to every class with CC immunity in place keeping distance no longer becomes viable and skill management becomes resource management. This is more so towards PVP I understand but some of that still goes over to pve. You can't push back bosses, they have larger hit ranges so your little magnum shot has little to no effect on some. Your skill like is not very fluent with itself either. You have same time damage which won't stack for skills effects then you have a skill to reduce armor with no decent hard damaging skill to follow it up with but itself. Personally I would rather see the aoe snare skill changed to a higher dps skill with no effects (Like a cone steel tornado). I'm still a firm believer there needs to either be an instant phsyical damage only shot or a rapid fire shot ( I would probably remove the range morph for the ground target aoe for increased range for that, I never see anyone use it anyways since it's stamina cost is to high).

Bloodgharm

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Your feeling this because snipe is so slow. Really that's the whole problem with the skill line.

When your draw your bow that far back, the arrow should be instant. Not some arc shot crap.

I feel like they could change the poison morph of snipe into an instant cast ability albeit with slightly reduced damage. That might appease the people who believe that bow doesn't have a decent direct damage skill. Personally, if you want to spam a ranged stamina ability, just get silver shards from the fighter's guild line.

twistedmonk

who uses single target in PvE? I guess boss battles.

to level vet ranks/champ points, usually you are grinding AoE against 20-30 mobs ... so I guess you have to spam acid spray?

I don't know how viable aoe grinding is with bow tbh

Resipsa131

What type of class do you recommend for a bow build? Thinking about DK as you can reflect, and use stone fist as some CC? Thinking about running one with an argonian just for kicks

Bloodgharm

Resipsa131 wrote: »

What type of class do you recommend for a bow build? Thinking about DK as you can reflect, and use stone fist as some CC? Thinking about running one with an argonian just for kicks

Whatever you want to fit your playstyle. I like NB for crippling grasp as a speed boost, mark target for heal and elude or double take for dodge chance. You can also play the whole ambush in and magnum shot out game. Here's how I would do it:

Bar 1: DPS
Focused aim
Venom arrow
Bombard/silver shards
Relentless focus
Crippling grasp/double take
U: Flawless Dawn breaker

Bar 2: Buff/Execute
Reaper's mark
Ambush
Killer's blade
Evil hunter
Magnum shot
U: Soul Tether

For aoe I'd start from stealth, mark target and snipe a caster or archer then spam bombard and hit a casting enemy with a Venom arrow to stun them and use relentless focus when it procs. If facing melee attackers, use double take for dodge chance and always mark your next target if low on health.

For single target you'll want to mark them for armor debuff and start from stealth with snipe. Use Venom arrow every 10 secs for poison damage and utilize silver shards as a dps spam and relentless focus when it procs. If they get too close for comfort magnum shot and crippling grasp are your best friends. Once the target reaches execute range, ambush in and spam killer's blade.

This build is all about mobility and kiting. It's got a steep learning curve, but it's very fun to play once you get the hang of things. Of course instead of using both bars for bow, you can switch one to dw or 2h and just place all your buffs on the second bar. Rally makes this build a lot easier for sustained fights.

ADarklore

Resipsa131 wrote: »

What type of class do you recommend for a bow build? Thinking about DK as you can reflect, and use stone fist as some CC? Thinking about running one with an argonian just for kicks

Not to be rude, but why even ask this question if you're going to pick an Argonian "just for kicks"? In that, you're already saying you're not very serious about the build in the first place. If you're picking a Bow, which is arguably one of the lower damage abilities already, you need to pick a race that has some type of benefit for the Bow- like a class with significant Max Stamina or Stamina Regen. Anyone who has played this game long enough knows that racial passives can be extremely important, especially at end game, where passives tend to shine. If you're already limiting yourself by choosing Argonian, then you will probably be unhappy with the effectiveness of the Bow later because of the lack of racial buffs. Can you succeed, yes, but will it be easy, no.

Consider this... because the Bow does less damage, you need to spam the abilities more, which means you need either high Stamina or high Stamina Regen along with increased weapon damage and/or weapon crit. I think this is why some people become frustrated with Bow, because they expect to be able to kill enemies with one or two hits like they can with 2H or DW, but with the Bow, depending on the enemy, it can take a LOT of hits- particularly Group Bosses and such. In that, you tend to drain your Stamina very quickly leaving you only with regular attacks until your Stamina regens.

Stannum

Bows in PvE?
If target==Vet.Darkshade_cavern.Final_Boss or target ==Vet.Fungal_Grotto.Final_Boss then weapon:=bow else weapon:=DW+2H

Sharmony

Bloodgharm wrote: »

Sharmony wrote: »

A 12% reduction to damage in melee range is the main reason bows are pretty much unusable in PvE, hence they're only used for Master's Bow for the weapon damage bonus. Having played bow's since launch, I gave up on them after half way through 1.5, I have repeatedly gone back to theory craft them but they are still haunted by the same basic founding issues.

Quit trying to cook the numbers in your favor. It's not a 12% damage reduction up close, it's a damage buff when attacking from range. If you need to gain some distance, use magnum shot and roll dodge away. It's pretty simple. If you're a nb, couple this with crippling grasp and you'll be super fast.

Forgive me for inverting the text but it is what it is, test the damage for yourself, and with most tactics requiring melee for a multitude of things including combat prayer and healing springs this is one of the single biggest flaws with the design of the bow skill line. Moreover, your comments about magnum shotting, roll dodging and crippling grasp are all null in-void, this is a PvE thread in the initial, maybe you misread? Save your aggressive temperament for the PvP forums.

Bloodgharm

Sharmony wrote: »

Bloodgharm wrote: »

Sharmony wrote: »

A 12% reduction to damage in melee range is the main reason bows are pretty much unusable in PvE, hence they're only used for Master's Bow for the weapon damage bonus. Having played bow's since launch, I gave up on them after half way through 1.5, I have repeatedly gone back to theory craft them but they are still haunted by the same basic founding issues.

Quit trying to cook the numbers in your favor. It's not a 12% damage reduction up close, it's a damage buff when attacking from range. If you need to gain some distance, use magnum shot and roll dodge away. It's pretty simple. If you're a nb, couple this with crippling grasp and you'll be super fast.

Forgive me for inverting the text but it is what it is, test the damage for yourself, and with most tactics requiring melee for a multitude of things including combat prayer and healing springs this is one of the single biggest flaws with the design of the bow skill line. Moreover, your comments about magnum shotting, roll dodging and crippling grasp are all null in-void, this is a PvE thread in the initial, maybe you misread? Save your aggressive temperament for the PvP forums.

I'm sorry, but I didn't know that utilizing those skills I've mentioned was banned in pve. I'm not a pvp player in the slightest. Never been to cyro. Yes, the bow is a tougher weapon to use and it may require more skill, but it's a valid weapon choice nonetheless. My strategy that I posted works in most boss situations where you need to kite. It gets tough when you're facing mage bosses where they attack from range, but having a damage shield or a healing skill helps.

Sharmony

Bloodgharm wrote: »

Sharmony wrote: »

Bloodgharm wrote: »

Sharmony wrote: »

A 12% reduction to damage in melee range is the main reason bows are pretty much unusable in PvE, hence they're only used for Master's Bow for the weapon damage bonus. Having played bow's since launch, I gave up on them after half way through 1.5, I have repeatedly gone back to theory craft them but they are still haunted by the same basic founding issues.

Quit trying to cook the numbers in your favor. It's not a 12% damage reduction up close, it's a damage buff when attacking from range. If you need to gain some distance, use magnum shot and roll dodge away. It's pretty simple. If you're a nb, couple this with crippling grasp and you'll be super fast.

Forgive me for inverting the text but it is what it is, test the damage for yourself, and with most tactics requiring melee for a multitude of things including combat prayer and healing springs this is one of the single biggest flaws with the design of the bow skill line. Moreover, your comments about magnum shotting, roll dodging and crippling grasp are all null in-void, this is a PvE thread in the initial, maybe you misread? Save your aggressive temperament for the PvP forums.

I'm sorry, but I didn't know that utilizing those skills I've mentioned was banned in pve. I'm not a pvp player in the slightest. Never been to cyro. Yes, the bow is a tougher weapon to use and it may require more skill, but it's a valid weapon choice nonetheless. My strategy that I posted works in most boss situations where you need to kite. It gets tough when you're facing mage bosses where they attack from range, but having a damage shield or a healing skill helps.

Then your selection of skills is crazily odd for end-game PvE content, my apologies. It isn't a valid weapon choice other than an off-bar for master's bow and is non competitive comparatively to all other stamina based skill lines (I've done all the theorycrafting behind this for many months, I test each weapons dps with each coming update both individual skills and then accumulating dps having worked out the best stamina based setups when on the pts). In no boss situation in group play at end game content can I think of a scenario where you have to kite a boss other than The Planar Inhibitor which is a specific example with no tank. Can I ask why you're buffing yourself with self healing, not the healer? If you are talking about purely leveling content here and non group play then forgive me as you have a shock coming on reaching Veteran Rank 16 with bow's dps in comparison to other two alternatives. I'm ofc talking about a purely comparative level of game play at end game group based content both 4 and 12 man which is most definitive and comparable way to compare weapon types. Once again, apologies if you are not tackling the issue from this stand point, but only in group play concerning PvE is the majority of end game content, where currently bow is significantly weak.

Bloodgharm

Sharmony wrote: »

Bloodgharm wrote: »

Sharmony wrote: »

Bloodgharm wrote: »

Sharmony wrote: »

A 12% reduction to damage in melee range is the main reason bows are pretty much unusable in PvE, hence they're only used for Master's Bow for the weapon damage bonus. Having played bow's since launch, I gave up on them after half way through 1.5, I have repeatedly gone back to theory craft them but they are still haunted by the same basic founding issues.

Quit trying to cook the numbers in your favor. It's not a 12% damage reduction up close, it's a damage buff when attacking from range. If you need to gain some distance, use magnum shot and roll dodge away. It's pretty simple. If you're a nb, couple this with crippling grasp and you'll be super fast.

Forgive me for inverting the text but it is what it is, test the damage for yourself, and with most tactics requiring melee for a multitude of things including combat prayer and healing springs this is one of the single biggest flaws with the design of the bow skill line. Moreover, your comments about magnum shotting, roll dodging and crippling grasp are all null in-void, this is a PvE thread in the initial, maybe you misread? Save your aggressive temperament for the PvP forums.

I'm sorry, but I didn't know that utilizing those skills I've mentioned was banned in pve. I'm not a pvp player in the slightest. Never been to cyro. Yes, the bow is a tougher weapon to use and it may require more skill, but it's a valid weapon choice nonetheless. My strategy that I posted works in most boss situations where you need to kite. It gets tough when you're facing mage bosses where they attack from range, but having a damage shield or a healing skill helps.

Then your selection of skills is crazily odd for end-game PvE content, my apologies. It isn't a valid weapon choice other than an off-bar for master's bow and is non competitive comparatively to all other stamina based skill lines (I've done all the theorycrafting behind this for many months, I test each weapons dps with each coming update both individual skills and then accumulating dps having worked out the best stamina based setups when on the pts). In no boss situation in group play at end game content can I think of a scenario where you have to kite a boss other than The Planar Inhibitor which is a specific example with no tank. Can I ask why you're buffing yourself with self healing, not the healer? If you are talking about purely leveling content here and non group play then forgive me as you have a shock coming on reaching Veteran Rank 16 with bow's dps in comparison to other two alternatives. I'm ofc talking about a purely comparative level of game play at end game group based content both 4 and 12 man which is most definitive and comparable way to compare weapon types. Once again, apologies if you are not tackling the issue from this stand point, but only in group play concerning PvE is the majority of end game content, where currently bow is significantly weak.

My apologies because I never said my build setup was for endgame content. I put my solo questing/grinding advice in here. The OP never asked for endgame advice and I might add, nobody else mentioned that this discussion was purely about veteran endgame content, but I guess from a purely dps standpoint, bow is lacking. Still, the lack of damage is primarily due to the inherent risk/reward of melee vs ranged combat. While you won't be putting out nearly as much dps as say a melee stam nb or sorc, but you are more mobile as a ranged user. You have great cc ability which won't work on bosses, but taking down adds is where it shines. There's merit to support skills although this game might not support that style of play when you can just burst down a boss and avoiding most of the boss fight mechanics. Ultimately, this is an oversight on ZoSs part that ends up shunning builds that don't parse the most dps. It's a flawed system when one skill tree gets abandoned just because it can't put out the same numbers even if overall, it helps out the group.

All in all, I'm sure it also comes down to player skill. I'd rather have a group that knows what it's doing, running non-optimal builds than having a group of inexperienced players with the hottest FOTM builds. And I'm sure you would agree.