CP Active Passive Bar & CP Burn Concept

TheShadowScout

CP should never be "burned".
Ever.
It just goes against the basic reward principle... without enlightment, casual gamers spend four hours on getting a champion point... averaging that with enlightment and considering that casual players likely won't play all that much... it'd still be three hours... having to face the idea of loosing that much time invested just to "fuel the flame" is enough to put casual players like me off the game.
ZOS doesn't make money from people who left the game.
Ergo... bad idea.

Oh, a cp burn concept would work for the hypergrinder playstyle... that's what, less then 1% of the player base? But most others would feel rather vexed...

The rest of the ideas are not so bad, if like mentioned, a bit before their time (again, unless you talk about the dozend or so hypergrinders)

Gidorick

I certainly wouldn't be opposed to differing slot effectiveness @BuggeX. Nor would I be opposed to multiple slots. A total of 9 100% effective slots and 18 50% slots would be excellent.

It's the concept of limiting the effective stars that I'm advocating... not necessarily the exact number. I do think, however, that a 3 or 5 slot bar would be too few. At minimum, I think we would need one for each constellation.

Gidorick

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I still think the whole concept of "burning CP" is a bad idea... no matter how one were to dress it up. Consuming hard-earned cp in any way just would rub me wrong, and poison a lot of my enjoyment from ESO.

...picking a limited number of starts for extra bonus might be a better thing...

Personally, the best notion I take from this whole thing would be give nine "slots" for overcharging stars, let the people pick which nine they want to spend extra cp on, and go with that.

Or perhaps even better, as I mentioned, sub-stars (comets?) for existing stars, that give an additional but more specific bonus... and where one would have to choose one of several existing options (a bit like morphs, but not changing the basic star, just providing one out of several "extra-specific overcharge" options). Those could unlock only after having spent a certain amount in the main star...
Like... spend 50 c-points in "Elemental Expert" buying bonus to ALL elemental damage, and the sub-categories "Fire Expert - Shock Expert - Ice Expert" unlock, pick one and spend more there for an additional damage bonus to that type only...

Another idea to make people spend their c-points in different ways once they start getting close to the end of the champion system and homogenization might be the cp-score passives... like "+12 critical rating at 30 points in the ritual" - might be that they could be improved as well through c-points? As in, unlocked at -amount spent- and then you can put in extra to raise the bonus you get...

Those two ideas alone could easily triple the champion system in terms of space to spend c-points....

Although, seeing how I right now at am 301 c-points with my casual playstyle... there's a lot time to come before I can see myself getting to that point in the champion system. But still, its worth some consideration...

I would be comfortable with the overcharge concept (actually I would downright support it) if the maximum on each star was 50 CP and the overcharge was to 100.

I would also love the idea of there being other means of using CPs. Like, what if worship in ESO was done through temples and shrines. These shrines could accept CPs as "prayers" and could bestow the player with divine or daedric specific buffs. I do love the idea of being able to burn CPs but it doesn't necessarily have to be with the champion constellations if there are other in-game mechanics that use CPs as a sort of currency.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

CP should never be "burned".
Ever.
It just goes against the basic reward principle...

I just quite flatly disagree with this. Think of other consumable items in game like Gold, AP, Telvar Stones, crafting materials. How do we gain those? Through game play. Are they not also "hard earned"? Are they not also earned through time and effort spent in play and are used and consumed to further play. This would be different because it would be a change in the way CPs are "used"...

As I mentioned above, I wouldn't be opposed to CPs being burned in other ways but I think the idea of having a way to consume CPs is sound and would ultimately be beneficial to the system overall .

TheShadowScout

Gidorick wrote: »

I would be comfortable with the overcharge concept (actually I would downright support it) if the maximum on each star was 50 CP and the overcharge was to 100.

I'd be happy with that sort of setup! Pick some "major" stars to get to 100, have the unselected "minor" stars only go for 50... though that -would- mean the c-system was maxed all the sooner, as there are 36 stars... if we picked only 9 to get to 100 and the rest for 50, the c-system would end at 2250 instead of 3600 points... But... it would be a different end result for everyone through picking different skills... I'd like that!

(and there could always be some ideas from the ones I mentioned to put extra points... hmmm... sub-stars and passive improvements... for example? might be worth a thought or two...)

Gidorick wrote: »

I would also love the idea of there being other means of using CPs. Like, what if worship in ESO was done through temples and shrines. These shrines could accept CPs as "prayers" and could bestow the player with divine or daedric specific buffs. I do love the idea of being able to burn CPs but it doesn't necessarily have to be with the champion constellations if there are other in-game mechanics that use CPs as a sort of currency.

Again, I would HATE any mechanic that uses experience as "currency". Now, shrines where you can donate currencies to gain boni... be it gold or tel var stones... that would be a good thing.
But not "experience".
I mean, how would that even work? You go to the church, and donate the knowledge of your last math lession? The new move you learned in your fencing class?? The stamina you gained from that time in the gym???

Experience is experience.

Currency is currency.

And as long as c-points are tied to experince, I do not think they ought to be lost, ever! (barring alzheimer, but lucky us, that's not a issue in tamriel!) Made inactive my caps, sure, to help deal with the power gap... but never ever lost, spent, donated, burned!

Gidorick wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

CP should never be "burned".
Ever.
It just goes against the basic reward principle...

I just quite flatly disagree with this. Think of other consumable items in game like Gold, AP, Telvar Stones, crafting materials. How do we gain those? Through game play. Are they not also "hard earned"? Are they not also earned through time and effort spent in play and are used and consumed to further play. This would be different because it would be a change in the way CPs are "used"...

If c-points were not XP-gain earned, but dropped through kills like gold or TV stones... and spent as and if the player chooses... then I'd be with you.
But since they are not... since they are tied to experience... they should, once earned, stay. And not become some "currency" - that's what gold, AP, TV-stones and whatever else of the sort they might add to the game at a later date are for!

Gidorick wrote: »

As I mentioned above, I wouldn't be opposed to CPs being burned in other ways but I think the idea of having a way to consume CPs is sound and would ultimately be beneficial to the system overall .

And I strongly disagree.
The game has "currency" type rewards aplenty, from gold to TV-stones, from AP to resources. Keep to those when "burning" game rewards.
Leave the experience based gains alone, since "burning" those kinds of gains would seriously poison my enjoyment of ESO, and I very much suspect I may not be alone in this. It is quite literally something that would drive me away from this game.

Gidorick

I'm at the point of I completely see your side of this @TheShadowScout and understand why you feel this way, I simply feel different about it. I like the thought that my character is putting "themselves" into something. Particularly with the idea of allowing players to burn CP to get favor from the divine and daedra. It would be a bit of a sacrifice... kind of fitting I think.

The talk of major and minor stars has got me thinking about the constellations in ESO and how cool it would be to be able to choose your birthday and when your birthday month comes around (I would prefer that to be multiple times per year as outlined in my Day/Night Cycle & Calendar concept HERE)) those stars get buffed for that month... or for your birthday week... or maybe just the specific day. If your birthsign is the Warrior, Mage, or Thief you would get a much smaller bonus, but it would be for all three constellations under that guardian sign.

But that... is for another thread.

TheShadowScout

Gidorick wrote: »

The talk of major and minor stars has got me thinking about the constellations in ESO and how cool it would be to be able to choose your birthday and when your birthday month comes around (I would prefer that to be multiple times per year as outlined in my Day/Night Cycle & Calendar concept HERE)) those stars get buffed for that month... or for your birthday week... or maybe just the specific day. If your birthsign is the Warrior, Mage, or Thief you would get a much smaller bonus, but it would be for all three constellations under that guardian sign.

But that... is for another thread.

Indeed, and that sounds really nifty! I always liked the birthsigns of other TES games better then the mundus buffs we get in ESO... and with the champion system... yeah, it would be great if we could choose our characters birthsign, and when the time corresponding to your character birthsign comes around, the stars in the matching champion system sign get a small buff in effect... you get my vote for that one!

Jar_Ek

If CPs were limited in how they could be applied and still effective, such as with a 9 star max as suggested - then the concept of using cp as a currency is valid, as its a way of using the "spare" CPs. It would also work if there was a cp cap.
However the buffs would have to be pretty good to spend cp on and if so that in itself could lead to imbalance (ie those who can afford them and those who can't) and/or elitism (DD for vWGT, God buff only).

BTW I am with the please don't burn my cp crowd, even if it is combat based... unless we all detwink our ALTs, run without cp in PvP, and dungeons. This is because the XP gain rate is completely different for every activity making a burn mechanism a nightmare to balance - much better to be able to buy goodies. But that comes with its own risks.

Gidorick

@SleepyTroll, check out this concept of how ZOS could handle the fact that 3600 CP cap would just make everyone the same.

SleepyTroll

Gidorick wrote: »

@SleepyTroll, check out this concept of how ZOS could handle the fact that 3600 CP cap would just make everyone the same.

This an intriguing concept, and just WOW the effort you put into this post. I do think we need to something, idk about the burn thing, but the star slots seem interesting.

side note how did you make this? lol

Gidorick

Thanks @SleepyTroll. Yea. I get that CP Burn thing is... controversial. It would mean that CPs wouldn't be the end-all progression that they are now. I think the CP burn would be healthy for the system in the long term but would just *** people off short term.

I make all my mock-ups in PowerPoint. If you like these check out the following threads. I'm particularly proud of the Training Dummies mockups.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/172547/training-dummies-concept/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153977/eso-character-offspring-a-phylogenetics-concept/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/165659/tangible-mounts-advanced-concept/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192831/the-day-eso-dyes/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/170030/in-game-headnetch/p1

SeptimusDova

Giddyup remove the burn part and you are on to something

Gidorick

SeptimusDova wrote: »

Giddyup remove the burn part and you are on to something

I might argue the merits of the CP Burn concept more if there was a chance in oblivion that ZOS would ever even consider this concept... either parts of the concept.

At this point I'm just like "meh... I like the burn part of the concept. You don't have to."

SeptimusDova

Maybe the points can be put on a use timer instead of actually lost. They go back to the cap pool for a week. A week lockout on used points. then they refresh at the end of the week so people can experiment with different CP builds.OR even better the CP goes to a special Bank the CP bank which is located only at the Auction Horse. Which is not marked on any map.

Alagras

Don't really agree with the proposed system, but I wish you were in charge of the whole game interface.
Really love these UIs with a physical aspect, like in say Age of Empire or Anno 1404. Gonna look into your other threads

Gidorick

I think the concern over the burn is actually kind of silly, if you consider what players like to do with their time.

If the CPs burn all the time... players will lose CPs and gain them back when they combat.
If the CPs burn only when in combat... players will ONLY lose CPs while they are also earning them.

I mean... let's say the burn time is 10 hours of ANY gameplay. Now let's say a player has 99 CPs distributed evenly between the 9 slotted stars.

That means a player would have to NOT earn any CPs for 110 hours of gameplay in order to loose ALL their CPs.

What about a player who has all stars slotted maxed out... so 900 CPs? 1000 Hours of non-CP earning gameplay.

Sure the system would create a treadmill type mechanic where players are constantly earning and constantly losing but that's the POINT of the suggestion. Concerned about CP cap? Ok... make the cap run away from you!

rb2001

I talked about how Champion System actually does the reverse of what it should (making everyone better at everything instead of creating diversity and further sharpening our differences) when I first heard of how it was implemented, and so I agree with the active passives.


The point of fantasy, RPG and classes has long been to create differences between possible play/combat/human types (e.g. that mage can sure throw fireballs, but doesn't know much about melee).

I feel ESO has largely failed to deliver this, as players who get better basically get better at everything. That 1k CP player is just better at everything than a 100 CP player, defeating the point of classes, skills, and balance between them.


I've made posts about active passives as well in the normal skill system. It would be good in champion system, too.

I honestly think the two systems should ultimately be combined. Players would have 1) slotted active skills, 2) slotted passives, and 3) the rest of their stats, which would include champ percentages.

I actually think it should be like Skyrim (even though I hate that game) where a single constellation map menu with nodes that must be followed in paths should unlock and unify all slottable active skills, slottable passives, and percentage boost nodes.

That way you would need to follow paths and nodes to get later skills. A hierarchy would form. No longer would you be able to train up a skill line, respect and use the highest tier skills even though you haven't spec'd the prerequisite.

What's the point of all this? Diversity. Maybe there is some criss-crossing between nodes.

Something like Magelight becomes a slotted passive that enables automatically when you enter combat / use skills. This solves several issues related to lack of bar real estate, diversity between players, champ system overriding skills system, etc.


The burn down concept is different and interesting, but I would have to think about it more to make a proper comment on it.

Gidorick

With the CP cap coming, this concept would play right into the idea of not being able to "spend" more than 501 CPs and being able to earn more than 501 CPs.

Players would also have to choose what stars and how many CPs they spend carefully because players wouldn't be able to fill up all 9 stars. Burn them away... You've got some in the bank.