Cloak only an issue since imperial city?

Cathexis

MonoAlva wrote: »

Wrecking blow spammers are actually driving me mad,i cant just understand which is the fun part of using just 1 skill to nuke/cc/and finally kill the enemy.

Currently it is the only non class skill that does adequate damage. Its not impossible to survive. But for stam sorcs like me for instance, who have no offensive class damage ability, its all we got.

Cathexis

I've said this before in other threads, the current problems with cloak are that you can move through mobs like they aren't there, and 3 times now I've been in 5 on 1 situations where a nb has successfully avoided taking any damage for 4+ minutes while we spam counters including caltrops, thundering presence, steelnado, streak, and potions.

This is why it is broken.

Sublime

Make NPC's ignore cloak, probem solved. (At leat in contradt to 1.6)

Docmandu

Moglijuana wrote: »

Attack bonus? the OTHER morph

Check your passives... Master Assassin..

Moglijuana

Docmandu wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Attack bonus? the OTHER morph

Check your passives... Master Assassin..

Exactly. Master Assassin is a class PASSIVE. I am pretty sure EVERY CLASS has a passive that increases their damage in some way when paired with another class ability. Are we calling those OP as well? I thought this was a thread on Cloak...So are you saying not only is CLOAK OP, but now the PASSIVES are OP as well?

NB's are SUPPOSED to be the rogue class. They are SUPPOSED to be hidden and strike from stealth. Why else would they have all these modifiers to hit while hidden? If they didn't have any of these the class would simply be another melee class with absolutely no survivability and even less damage.

Tavore1138

IC is part of the problem because it is a perfect environment for ganking and thus stealth abilities of all kinds are more useful - characters, like NBs, who are more used to hiding and sneaking are going to thrive over those who just charge around so it is certainly one reason.

Reason 2 - Cloak might as well be treated as a new skill.

Cloak has NEVER worked properly until now, other classes could just ignore and laugh at anyone dumb enough to slot it and expect to use it for escaping. Sure it would work sometimes but you could not trust it...

Suddenly it is working as intended and no-one has learned how to deal with it yet - it is the first serious new skill the game has 'added' since day 1 and people need time to learn how it works and how they need to tweak their bars to handle it. I think good players are already adapting - the rest will watch their videos and read their builds and do likewise and the 'problem' of cloak will fade away again.

ZOS need to let the game settle.

rfennell_ESO

I think they should add a stealth/invis detection "eye" above any of the roaming toughies, not every mod in IC. All the patrolling types that are usually a lieutenant grade mob should have increased ability to see stealth and invis.

As it is currently you can cloak right through them.

The issue is more that a "gank build" can ignore all pve content to find someone engaged in pve content than it is necessarily a issue with cloak.

My DK buddy recently went heavy armor to play around and it's like a total nightmare trying to maneuver with him as he tends to aggro everything due to very poor stealth radius.

Tavore1138

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

I think they should add a stealth/invis detection "eye" above any of the roaming toughies, not every mod in IC. All the patrolling types that are usually a lieutenant grade mob should have increased ability to see stealth and invis.

As it is currently you can cloak right through them.

The issue is more that a "gank build" can ignore all pve content to find someone engaged in pve content than it is necessarily a issue with cloak.

My DK buddy recently went heavy armor to play around and it's like a total nightmare trying to maneuver with him as he tends to aggro everything due to very poor stealth radius.

Hmmm... that's a choice for any class or player though. Medium armour reduces stealth radius and sacrifices defense, healing and other bonuses of heavy. Stealth and cloak are not the same thing - a careful player of any class can actually stealth past most mobs groups in IC, it's encountering other players (including those from your own alliance) that gets you caught.

Plus - you cannot cloak right through everything, some mobs actually do seem to see you through it enough to make the eye start opening... and if you get aggro a single cloak does not break it, sometimes it can take 3 or more before your stealth eye closes and they stop following you around.

A lot of myths told by non-NBs about how cloak supposedly operates in game....

Zorgon_The_Revenged

Docmandu wrote: »

Wish I had a skill that negates all single target attacks for 4 seconds with such a low resource cost...

The stealthing, removal of DoTs, attack bonus on next attack and speed boost I'd even give up on...

.. see what I did there ..

2.9 seconds.

And no, I don't see what you did there...............were you talking about hardened ward?

QuebraRegra

Cathexis wrote: »

I've said this before in other threads, the current problems with cloak are that you can move through mobs like they aren't there, and 3 times now I've been in 5 on 1 situations where a nb has successfully avoided taking any damage for 4+ minutes while we spam counters including caltrops, thundering presence, steelnado, streak, and potions.

This is why it is broken.

I want what that guys is on!

Seriously, R we playing the same game? I get dropped out of cloak ANYTIME anyone so much as even farts in my direction. If what yer doing doesn't drop them from clock then you're doing it in the wrong area. If I want to survive, I'll often double back when I'm cloaked and being looked for.

I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for your zerg not being able to kill the lone NB.

rfennell_ESO

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Plus - you cannot cloak right through everything, some mobs actually do seem to see you through it enough to make the eye start opening... and if you get aggro a single cloak does not break it, sometimes it can take 3 or more before your stealth eye closes and they stop following you around.

A lot of myths told by non-NBs about how cloak supposedly operates in game....

Actually you can pretty much cloak right through the majority of mobs, literally right through them.

It's no myth.

Particularly if you are a vampire and have double take up. In that particular case you don't even have to worry about them.

Docmandu

Moglijuana wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Attack bonus? the OTHER morph

Check your passives... Master Assassin..

Exactly. Master Assassin is a class PASSIVE. I am pretty sure EVERY CLASS has a passive that increases their damage in some way when paired with another class ability.

The person at the other side doesn't care if it's due to an additional passive.. same like people don't care that crystal frags hits so hard due to the extra passives that boost it's damage, since everyone using that skill has that passive anyway.

Anyway.. there was a reason they adjusted dodge rolling... and cloak is basically dodge roll on steroids minus the immunity from AOE damage.

Poor stam NBs.. only 5 cloaks * 2.9 seconds.. 14.5 seconds of immunity, that's 2x a full vigor HoT and enough time to give rally it's full heal.. all the while being immune to single target damage (and in IC free from mob attacks).

But that said.. I wish ZOS would put more thought into skill design and not just nerf everything that exists in the game to the point where the skills become useless. We've already seen enough drastic nerfs, but claiming Cloak isn't one of the strongest skills out there, is like sorcs claiming original 1.0 Bolt Escape was not an issue.

Docmandu

Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Wish I had a skill that negates all single target attacks for 4 seconds with such a low resource cost...

The stealthing, removal of DoTs, attack bonus on next attack and speed boost I'd even give up on...

.. see what I did there ..

2.9 seconds.

And no, I don't see what you did there...............were you talking about hardened ward?

You mean the skill that still lets you take damage, keeps you targetted, keeps mobs nuking you down, doesn't remove DoTs and doesn't stealth you, that hardened ward?! And even without all those things, hardened ward was over the top.. imagine that.

But yeah... 2.9 not 4.0 .. wonder where I got that 4s from..

rfennell_ESO

Docmandu wrote: »

Poor stam NBs.. only 5 cloaks * 2.9 seconds.. 14.5 seconds of immunity, that's 2x a full vigor HoT and enough time to give rally it's full heal.. all the while being immune to single target damage (and in IC free from mob attacks).

heh that's not true in the slightest bit.

That's assuming a whole bunch of things are happening that never are.

Like you do know that fear, double take, mark target, grim focus, shades, strife or whatever (you are using at least 2 of those or more as a stamblade) cost magicka?

Even with some magicka cost reduction and good magicka regen you can only cloak like that if you burn a potion and aren't in combat.

In combat, it's a lot more painful for the stamblade. Literally you can cloak 3 times and maybe squeeze off a 4th and you are out of magicka and hoping to find a hiding spot (and likely can't re-enter regular stealth).

Tavore1138

Docmandu wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Attack bonus? the OTHER morph

Check your passives... Master Assassin..

Exactly. Master Assassin is a class PASSIVE. I am pretty sure EVERY CLASS has a passive that increases their damage in some way when paired with another class ability.

The person at the other side doesn't care if it's due to an additional passive.. same like people don't care that crystal frags hits so hard due to the extra passives that boost it's damage, since everyone using that skill has that passive anyway.

Anyway.. there was a reason they adjusted dodge rolling... and cloak is basically dodge roll on steroids minus the immunity from AOE damage.

Poor stam NBs.. only 5 cloaks * 2.9 seconds.. 14.5 seconds of immunity, that's 2x a full vigor HoT and enough time to give rally it's full heal.. all the while being immune to single target damage (and in IC free from mob attacks).

But that said.. I wish ZOS would put more thought into skill design and not just nerf everything that exists in the game to the point where the skills become useless. We've already seen enough drastic nerfs, but claiming Cloak isn't one of the strongest skills out there, is like sorcs claiming original 1.0 Bolt Escape was not an issue.

5 cloaks for 10k magicka - you failed math right? Like big time!

Xvorg

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Plus - you cannot cloak right through everything, some mobs actually do seem to see you through it enough to make the eye start opening... and if you get aggro a single cloak does not break it, sometimes it can take 3 or more before your stealth eye closes and they stop following you around.

A lot of myths told by non-NBs about how cloak supposedly operates in game....

Actually you can pretty much cloak right through the majority of mobs, literally right through them.

It's no myth.

Particularly if you are a vampire and have double take up. In that particular case you don't even have to worry about them.

Wasn't that the idea from day 0?

Cloak is not a cheap skill although there's people (mostly non NB) who believe that it is. Ok, Magicka DPS NBs can abuse the skill, but magicka DPS NBs are one specific kind build (different from magicka healers and tanks and stamina based builds) . The solutions to be applied cannot punish the entire class because of the abuse done by a few, otherwise the skill will become pointless for more than a half of the NBs. And if it is the case, I prefer to change it for something different rather than having a skill that can only be used for a few.

Xvorg

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Poor stam NBs.. only 5 cloaks * 2.9 seconds.. 14.5 seconds of immunity, that's 2x a full vigor HoT and enough time to give rally it's full heal.. all the while being immune to single target damage (and in IC free from mob attacks).

heh that's not true in the slightest bit.

That's assuming a whole bunch of things are happening that never are.

Like you do know that fear, double take, mark target, grim focus, shades, strife or whatever (you are using at least 2 of those or more as a stamblade) cost magicka?

Even with some magicka cost reduction and good magicka regen you can only cloak like that if you burn a potion and aren't in combat.

In combat, it's a lot more painful for the stamblade. Literally you can cloak 3 times and maybe squeeze off a 4th and you are out of magicka and hoping to find a hiding spot (and likely can't re-enter regular stealth).

As a stamblade, I changed cloak for D Take. Caltrops and flare have turned the skill nearly useless in Cyro. One click and 26 seconds of major evation plus 4 of major exp. And it gives me more crit.

But people still thinks it should be nerfed, because it is useful in one game instance (IC). If ZOs lauches a PvP Arena, I don't want to imagine the whinning because of shadow image or mass hysteria

Devotion

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Yay another thread trying to explain how cloak isn't OP this is what the 30th one? The fact that a player can basicly reset there stealth attack over and over again and the few ways of stopping it has gotten nerf to be nearly useless proves at how OP cloak has become and cloak needs fixed.

few ways of stopping it have been nerfed? how so?

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So the anti nb's measures are:

A skill for magicka users, that requires two skill slots.

wrong.....

Cathexis wrote: »

I've said this before in other threads, the current problems with cloak are that you can move through mobs like they aren't there, and 3 times now I've been in 5 on 1 situations where a nb has successfully avoided taking any damage for 4+ minutes while we spam counters including caltrops, thundering presence, steelnado, streak, and potions.

This is why it is broken.

You must have faced the best NB in existence because that never happens..... if you throw a caltrops on top of the NB he is basically screwed....

Docmandu wrote: »

Poor stam NBs.. only 5 cloaks * 2.9 seconds.. 14.5 seconds of immunity, that's 2x a full vigor HoT and enough time to give rally it's full heal.. all the while being immune to single target damage (and in IC free from mob attacks).

Immunity? .... I think you should try playing a NB and see how you get on fighting some decent players.

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

I've said this before in other threads, the current problems with cloak are that you can move through mobs like they aren't there, and 3 times now I've been in 5 on 1 situations where a nb has successfully avoided taking any damage for 4+ minutes while we spam counters including caltrops, thundering presence, steelnado, streak, and potions.

This is why it is broken.

I want what that guys is on!

Seriously, R we playing the same game? I get dropped out of cloak ANYTIME anyone so much as even farts in my direction. If what yer doing doesn't drop them from clock then you're doing it in the wrong area. If I want to survive, I'll often double back when I'm cloaked and being looked for.

I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for your zerg not being able to kill the lone NB.

My thoughts exactly, against decent players I can attempt to cloak several times and instantly get brought out.

Devotion

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Lets get this thread some attention.

Docmandu

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

5 cloaks for 10k magicka - you failed math right? Like big time!

Moglijuana wrote: »

low resource cost? I can use it exactly 5 times on my stam NB

And you failed reading comprehension apparently.. good thing we're all friends here else that might have been taken personally and we wouldn't want that, right.. because that would be pretty sad.. and useless...

Tavore1138

Docmandu wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

5 cloaks for 10k magicka - you failed math right? Like big time!

Moglijuana wrote: »

low resource cost? I can use it exactly 5 times on my stam NB

And you failed reading comprehension apparently.. good thing we're all friends here else that might have been taken personally and we wouldn't want that, right.. because that would be pretty sad.. and useless...

Well... Glad (s)he can use it 5 times but guessing most can use it less. My own is 3 times with around 10k magicka and a cost of nearly 3k. Especially with the low magicka regen a stamina focused build is likely to be running you might regen maybe 1,500 in the 8.7 seconds you are cloaked which would not even allow a 4th cast. And realistically it will be nearer 7.5 seconds of cloak because you will be wanting to be casting the next one before the last one wears off. Obviously a tripot can fuel another 1, maybe 2 - so 5 is possible in that occasion and assuming you don't carry a more targetted potion type.

But having now tracked back to their post you seem to have a number of misapprehensions around what the skill can do so it is probably good to set those straight - best to have these discussions based on correct information.

Devotion

is cloak still a huge issues a few more weeks into IC?

i wonder what ZOS are actually thinking atm

LoreRiley

Waffennacht wrote: »

What made me angry with cloak was that 3 players, him under CC, can break CC and go back into cloak and evade instantly.

Even that I dealt with fine as it was their ability... even though bolt got the treatment for the exact same reason...

What really got me was last night. I was doing quests. Was suddenly ambused by a very skilled player.

Each time he got low on health, resources etc. He would CC break, cloak, dis aggro my pets and regen. Then he would re-attack. This happened three times.

The battle ended when my weapons failed to switc and I spammed the wrong move, in PvP those few seconds is all it takes for death.

I died from my mistake, a mistake that happened because this opponent could engage and disengage me at will. He would be beyond my detect potion radius and use WB spam to close the gap.

I just want the use Mage light, use AoE, or skills that require high PvP skill tree levels as counter comments to stop.

These all are extremely weak. Oh btw what move do you "have" to have to face a Sorc? Or Dk? Or templar to stand a chance? Not a one, but NB's argument against being OP is "use horrid abilities that are useless against 75% of the field dur"

Stop acting like after the nerfs that cloak isn't a stand out. It use to be fair before all the comparable skills for the other classes got nerfed

You're just being a whiney *** because you dont decide the battle

I have to use Lotus fan to counter streaking sorcs

I have to use Chain to counter Templars using their ult

I have to use Mark target for NBs

I have to use fear for permablockers

Everything requires a counter and you're just to stupid to realize that because you want to kill anything in sight and not let the stealth escape class escape. Thats the whole damn point of a NB

@waffennacht

Cathexis

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

I've said this before in other threads, the current problems with cloak are that you can move through mobs like they aren't there, and 3 times now I've been in 5 on 1 situations where a nb has successfully avoided taking any damage for 4+ minutes while we spam counters including caltrops, thundering presence, steelnado, streak, and potions.

This is why it is broken.

I want what that guys is on!

Seriously, R we playing the same game? I get dropped out of cloak ANYTIME anyone so much as even farts in my direction. If what yer doing doesn't drop them from clock then you're doing it in the wrong area. If I want to survive, I'll often double back when I'm cloaked and being looked for.

I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for your zerg not being able to kill the lone NB.

5 people =\= Zerg

And, not to be critical of you, but these are usually name players i recognize who are very skilled. Not to be insulting ^_^ I'm sure you battle hard.

Araxleon

People still complain about cloak?
you think the list of counters would be enough eh.
its our defensive ability + we are the only class without a damage shield.

also people who complain what are you comparing NB too? because when I compare it to the other skills the other classes have I dont see it being a problem
Talons,Hardened Ward, Petrify , Dragons Blood , Mines, blazing shield, purifying ritual

like seriously, NB has Mirage (which is decent its luck based more than anything and you cant stack more mischance) and cloak which has alot of counters but is also really powerful.

Honestly NB should be complain that they aren't as defensive as the other classes in the game PVP wise,
all the other classes have reliable skills.

now lets be honest, we know why people complain about NB cloak same reason people hate hardened ward + bolt escape
people use it to troll and players get mad, people get angry seeing their target vanish, same way people get angry at a bolt escaping sorc or a sorc spamming shields forever.

Personally, after reading some posts about devs *looking into a cloak nerf* I only have this to say
If you nerf cloak to make it cost more per use, allow me to stay cloaked while taking AOE damage and dont allow detect pots to reveal, only allow flare otherwise cloak will be useless like really useless, the only reason sorcs arent raging soo hard about the bolt escape nerf, is because they still have insane damage shields.

Waffennacht

@LoreRiley

It is a stand out ability, it's only comparable ability is the bolt (which got nerfed again for the exact same reason)

I would be fine it they used it to escape like you keep repeating, but they don't. Just like the sorc they use it to gain distance, heal, and resume the attack.

Even this would be fine if there would be some resolution to the battle... but I digress.

The abilities NBs say are a counter are a joke, not one is a "hard" counter, they all have a range limitation far less than what's useful. If they are close enough, well if they are close enough they are attacking.

Im not advocating the nerf of stealth, Im advocating the adjustment of times on effects that were obviously set up before the update changes.

A 15 second detect potion was absolutely fine when the battle lasted no more than 30 seconds (hence the reason they tuned it down to 15 seconds) but now that battles are at least a few minutes in length a 15 second detect potion is at best a one shot wonder (thanks long cool down)

Or tweak abilities to not have a reduction when used. I feel the allotment of a slot dedicated strictly to counter one build is a drawback enough, no need to have a 5% loss of resources ontop of that.

I would much prefer those changes than a change to the NB class.

And ill just add this, I find it very strange a sorc can be rooted and still bolt, the roots bolt with them too...

LBxFinalDeath

Seems like its only a problem inside IC to be honest.

LoreRiley

@Waffennacht

I don't agree with the counter nerfs at all like if I get hit by talon I am immune to single Target as I will cloak but for those to say we need it nerfed are delusional we just need counters buffed. I just started my DK and I know how annoying it is to fight a NB but I learned to hit with a dot and use Volatile Armor as an AOE the onyl NB ability I feel needs tweaked is fear

TheNephilimCrow

So, I have been seeing allot of threads about nerfing cloak. Honestly, I'm starting to suspect that those who are posting it are just having terrible luck against NBs or they never played one themselves. Cloak is nice for retreating and for giving you time to breathe through all the spams, but lately its near impossible to cloak when ganged up on. So many CCs, DoTs, AoE and such pull NBs out of it. It only really works when you are up against one or two. Even then there are those counters that pull us out. Hell, one of them being a toggle. I.E. Radiant Magelight.

Gilvoth

Devotion wrote: »

Ever since they bug fixed cloak alongside releasing IC cloak has been the center of attention for a lot of players. Did people not think mixing pve with pvp in tight sewers with hard hitting mobs that NB's wouldn't be the ones to shine? especially mixing pver's and pvper's together.

As a Magicka NB i can tell a huge difference between players who know how to play vs players in IC just for stones. If i fight an experienced player I usually find myself in a lot of trouble, between caltrops/detect pots/magelight/other AOE's/mark target. I don't have huge shields, I don't have class heals, I'm not super tanky.

I have been wrecked by abnormally tanky DK's who take flight for 10-15k dmg.
I have been wrecked by sorcs who can still streak multiple times and hit like a truck with 13k light attacks (overload or so)/crystal frag procs for 10k
I have been wrecked by templars who are competent and dont just smash their head on the keyboard hoping to out heal everything.
I have been wrecked by wrecking blow spammers who hit for 9k an attack

The list could go on for a while but oh cloak is the issue yes cloak. Take some time and learn how to play your class, ask for advice, ask for tips how to deal with something. Don't just come and cry nerf. This generation of MMO players are truly cancer.

awesome post and all truth.