Discussion: Anyone else hate CC?

Esbia

As the title says I'm not particularly a fan of CC, anyone else dislike it it as much as I do? In my opinion it just unnecessarily slows down the pace of combat and can in some cases really break the flow of some epic combos. One of the reasons I prefer ESO to other MMOs is it's relatively fast paced action combat (I'm totally bored and fed up of tab targeting hotkey MMOs). To have something like CC really breaks the flow and pace of combat for me. I don't want to have CC, I don't want enemies to have CC, just let us fight it out mano e mano.

To anyone who says but it's mainly designed for PvP. Think about Dark Souls, one of my favourite combat systems in any game and arguably the best PvP combat in any game (I did say arguably). No CC there. You just fight each other simple. Yes there is blocking, yes there is defense, but nothing to actually stop me or the enemy from doing what we want to do. It just keeps the pace and flow of combat high and exciting imo.
Also no CC doesn't take away the difficulty of combat. Again Dark Souls, one of the most difficult games has no CC. Movement is key, dodging is key, blocking is key. I don't know just a thought. I know the current system will never change in ESO but it's nice to have a discussion nevertheless.

NB: I know Dark Souls has SOME CC but most of the CC in Dark Souls is just long combat animations for enemies to get massive damage off; example a monster in the Sewers sucking your face off. Dark Souls in most cases has very little CC. And in most cases all CC is dodgeable in Dark Souls.

LordSemaj

Know what has loads of action? Fighting games! Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, the works!

Even they have CC.

eliisra

I hate CC even more now. Since I cant afford to block much in 2.1, I'm basically using CC break more than most of my actual skills in PvP.

It's not to enjoyable when PvP is like this: 1 2 3 4 5 break CC, 1 2 3 4 5 break CC...

They could definitely increase the immunity with a few seconds now, since they nerfed any counters to CC, while the game never had any cooldown on mashing abilities with CC.

Esbia

LordSemaj wrote: »

Know what has loads of action? Fighting games! Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, the works!

Even they have CC.

I don't really like or play fighting games.

Leandor

Uhh... isn't troll baiting forbidden by forum rules?

Esbia

Leandor wrote: »

Uhh... isn't troll baiting forbidden by forum rules?

How's this troll baiting? I'm trying to have a discussion about game design, if anything your comment adds unconstructive and needless aggro to a perfectly sensible thread.

Alucardo

CC isn't supposed to be liked. But it adds good dynamics and strategy to combat, otherwise it'd be who gets the most damage in the fastest.

Leandor

Esbia wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Uhh... isn't troll baiting forbidden by forum rules?

How's this troll baiting? I'm trying to have a discussion about game design, if anything your comment adds unconstructive and needless aggro to a perfectly sensible thread.

Sorry, then. You should have said so before, because based on the content, it is not discernible whether it's a serious post.

Okay, then, constructive. I can do that. Here goes:

This is a game that has strategy components and CC is one of these. There are not only ways to counter it, there are ways to proactively prevent it. And you can use CC yourself, to prevent others from CCing you. Try it, it works.

If you don't want that, there is a whole genre that caters to what you apparently prefer, called first person shooters.

Esbia

Leandor wrote: »

Esbia wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Uhh... isn't troll baiting forbidden by forum rules?

How's this troll baiting? I'm trying to have a discussion about game design, if anything your comment adds unconstructive and needless aggro to a perfectly sensible thread.

Sorry, then. You should have said so.

Okay, then, constructive. I can do that. Here goes:

This is a game that has strategy components and CC is one of these. There are not only ways to counter it, there are ways to proactively prevent it. And you can use CC yourself, to prevent others from CCing you. Try it, it works.

If you don't want that, there is a whole genre that caters to what you apparently prefer, called first person shooters.

Of course there are ways to actively counter it. It'd just prefer to not have to since like I said it slows down the pace and flow of combat for me. I'd prefer a mostly action based system where blocking and dodging is king. If you don't want to take damage block or dodge. If you want to catch up with a character then chase them. That's just my preference. CC doesn't = a more sophisticated and deep combat system it's just a different style. One I do not currently enjoy.

Also FPS isn't the only alternative. Like I said, I;d prefer a system like Dark Souls.

Rev Rielle

From a AvA perspective:
I think if development fix the bugs with various crowd control skills, and standardise it general otherwise, it will be quite a good part of the game. At the moment though? No, it's probably the single biggest factor/bugged-mechanic that is takes the enjoyment out of AvA.

Leandor

So, it is okay and a good mechanic to be able to block damage, but blocking CC is bad or shallow or disruptive to combat flow?

Oookay.

Esbia

Alucardo wrote: »

CC isn't supposed to be liked. But it adds good dynamics and strategy to combat, otherwise it'd be who gets the most damage in the fastest.

Shouldn't we be enjoying what is for most of us a hobby? By your own admission why have a system that makes this hobby less enjoyable? No CC doesn't mean less strategy, I actually think it would require more skill to play without CC, where you have to time dodges and blocks perfectly and positioning is very important. CC isn't strategy, it's just, oh press 1 button and my enemy is stuck then I whale on them... zzzzzzzzz

Esbia

Leandor wrote: »

So, it is okay and a good mechanic to be able to block damage, but blocking CC is bad or shallow or disruptive to combat flow?

Oookay.

Well CC actively stops you from doing what you want to do, blocking doesn't do that. Plus blocking is much more timing and positioning based making it more skilled imo. Just look at a system like Dark Souls honestly. You can't constantly block since you run out of stamina, so you have to time it perfectly, you have to learn when the enemy attacks and block in time. This becomes much more interesting and exciting vs a player since you don't actually know when they'll attack so it can become a very tactical battle of who's going to strike first and who's going to counter-strike.

Leandor

Okay, I will draw the picture.


You. Can. Block. CC.

Winterpsy

The purpose of CCs exactly is what you hate about them. It's bursting stamina down.
Basically it's essential against tankier characters. Burn their resources.

The other purpose is to give a tool against the endless escape of sorcerers and nightblades, or put a templars healing spam to a temporary halt.

I can imagine it's a nightmare of low stam characters. But without CCs even with the new patch, many players would lose their tool to stop constantly escaping sorcerers, nightblades, or burn down a DK's blocking pool.

Luckily low stam characters are usually ranged, who can stay at a safer distance. Or have even at close distance endless escape skills or counter CCs. (mass hysteria spamming of magicka nightblades?)

Esbia

Leandor wrote: »

Okay, I will draw the picture.


You. Can. Block. CC.

What about when you're out of stamina, or being chain cced or against a zerg of players? Can doesn't mean you always will... But without CC at all you don't have to waste any stamina and can concentrate on moving/dodging/blocking/using your skills without being interrupted. Plus blocking or interrupting CC is still not an ideal solution since it adds an extra animation to break CC which also disrupts the flow of combat. I don't think I'd mind CC so much if the anti-CC block was instantaneous (for example Beads in Smite).

EDS604

Dark souls this, dark souls that.. if you don't like something about a game, play a game that you DO like. Like darksouls :P but leave our CC strategical combat alone.

Blackhorne

Leandor wrote: »

Okay, I will draw the picture.


You. Can. Block. CC.

Not all of it.

Some CC (e.g, Fear) is unblockable. That is also a good example of the type of CC which disrupts the flow of combat.

Also, due to poor handling of timing issues (often but not always due to lag), sometimes even blockable CC doesn't get blocked when you block it. This leads to more interruptions in combat flow.

Esbia

EDS604 wrote: »

Dark souls this, dark souls that.. if you don't like something about a game, play a game that you DO like. Like darksouls :P but leave our CC strategical combat alone.

That's a very poor argument. Just because I find a certain aspect of a game irritating doesn't mean I have to stop playing. I can enjoy both Dark Souls and ESO but can still have a preference of which combat system I enjoy more.

Winterpsy

I believe the discussion is kind of moot. The CCs are so deeply corporated into the skilllines and mechanics, that even if a million players would demand it's removal it would take a loooooooooong time to rebalance everything.

And I am yet to see such a big player initiated mechanical rework.

This aside the whole discussion is naught but the exchange of "I like this" , " I dont like this" -s.

Esbia

Winterpsy wrote: »

I believe the discussion is kind of moot. The CCs are so deeply corporated into the skilllines and mechanics, that even if a million players would demand it's removal it would take a loooooooooong time to rebalance everything.

And I am yet to see such a big player inducted mechanical rework.

This aside the whole discussion is naught but the exchange of "I like this" , " I dont like this" -s.

You could rebalance the game so that breaking CC is less time and resource consuming. This would be an easy fix and would encourage players to make less CC based builds which could naturally move the game away from CC.

Reverb

I hate that breaking cc only has a 50% success rate, even with plenty of stam. Most of the time it's a death sentence.

Outside of that issue, I don't hate the mechanic as a concept. It makes sense for some skills to stun or pin an opponent.

Leandor

Esbia wrote: »

EDS604 wrote: »

Dark souls this, dark souls that.. if you don't like something about a game, play a game that you DO like. Like darksouls :P but leave our CC strategical combat alone.

That's a very poor argument. Just because I find a certain aspect of a game irritating doesn't mean I have to stop playing. I can enjoy both Dark Souls and ESO but can still have a preference of which combat system I enjoy more.

Yours is a very poor argument as well. There are players that appreciate the fact that CC is in the game, even if it gets them killed in times. Why is your opinion on the combat mechanics more important than mine?

Blackhorne wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Okay, I will draw the picture.


You. Can. Block. CC.

Not all of it.

Some CC (e.g, Fear) is unblockable. That is also a good example of the type of CC which disrupts the flow of combat.

Also, due to poor handling of timing issues (often but not always due to lag), sometimes even blockable CC doesn't get blocked when you block it. This leads to more interruptions in combat flow.

In a game that has counters to every play, it is good that there are counters to the counter. Fear/Fossilize were the best way to deal with tanks before. They will be needed if the new tank meta comes out in force.

Esbia wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Okay, I will draw the picture.


You. Can. Block. CC.

What about when you're out of stamina, or being chain cced or against a zerg of players? Can doesn't mean you always will... But without CC at all you don't have to waste any stamina and can concentrate on moving/dodging/blocking/using your skills without being interrupted. Plus blocking or interrupting CC is still not an ideal solution since it adds an extra animation to break CC which also disrupts the flow of combat. I don't think I'd mind CC so much if the anti-CC block was instantaneous (for example Beads in Smite).

Then you managed your resources badly or were outnumbered over your head. I see no problem at all in that. What you consider disruption of combat flow is for me a well thought out sequence of offensive and defensive moves. I appreciate it very much. I do like that I constantly need to be aware of what happens around me instead of mindlessly going through the same sequence of keypresses ad infinitum.

Egonieser

Leandor wrote: »

Esbia wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Uhh... isn't troll baiting forbidden by forum rules?

How's this troll baiting? I'm trying to have a discussion about game design, if anything your comment adds unconstructive and needless aggro to a perfectly sensible thread.

If you don't want that, there is a whole genre that caters to what you apparently prefer, called first person shooters.

Wrong, even FPS games have cc. Most commonly in the forms of grenades (concussion/flash) they are the very definition of crowd control, that is their purpose.

Belidos

I'm perfectly fine with CC as long as it's done right. There should never be anything that completely locks you down, that's just bad design. Slowing, knocking down, and rooting someone for short timers is perfectly fine in my opinion, but totally locking you down for long timers is not acceptable, especially if it stacks with other CC.

A perfect example of CC out of control was Dark Age of Camelot, in hat game you had various snares, roots and mez's which by themselves weren't too bad to deal with, but if the other team had the right balance of classes and got the jump on you they could literally completely lock you down, leaving you standing there unable to fight back or get away for about three minutes, in that time you would not survive no matter your class or build. Not only that but it was AOE as well, which meant any fight between two groups was controlled by whoever got their CC in first and lead to some very frustrating fights.

That's an example of the point at which I deem CC unacceptable, it's a shame because DAoC was an awesome PvP system, similar in a way to our three way faction war, but the OP CC just killed it for me and a lot of people.

danno8

Biggest problem with CC in this game (other than bugs), is there are no "tells" in most cases that CC is coming your way. In most other mmo's CC require a cast time or other obvious tell, which allows for counterplay. But in this game most CC's are unavoidable and requires you have stamina to break them or die.

It's less fun, yes and feels cheap at times. You should be able to block a CC coming and it should cost less than "break free". Same with dodging.

But currently it is just cheapest to take the CC and break free, since you get 6s immunity. There is something wrong with that. I think it is just a symptom of having cheap spammable CC. Perhaps CC skills should be far more expensive?

Leandor

Egonieser wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Esbia wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Uhh... isn't troll baiting forbidden by forum rules?

How's this troll baiting? I'm trying to have a discussion about game design, if anything your comment adds unconstructive and needless aggro to a perfectly sensible thread.

If you don't want that, there is a whole genre that caters to what you apparently prefer, called first person shooters.

Wrong, even FPS games have cc. Most commonly in the forms of grenades (concussion/flash) they are the very definition of crowd control, that is their purpose.

I am an old-fashioned guy in that aspect. Quake/Quake II had no CC and were the epitome of FPS genre.

Esbia

Leandor wrote: »

Esbia wrote: »

EDS604 wrote: »

Dark souls this, dark souls that.. if you don't like something about a game, play a game that you DO like. Like darksouls :P but leave our CC strategical combat alone.

That's a very poor argument. Just because I find a certain aspect of a game irritating doesn't mean I have to stop playing. I can enjoy both Dark Souls and ESO but can still have a preference of which combat system I enjoy more.

Yours is a very poor argument as well. There are players that appreciate the fact that CC is in the game, even if it gets them killed in times. Why is your opinion on the combat mechanics more important than mine?

Blackhorne wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Okay, I will draw the picture.


You. Can. Block. CC.

Not all of it.

Some CC (e.g, Fear) is unblockable. That is also a good example of the type of CC which disrupts the flow of combat.

Also, due to poor handling of timing issues (often but not always due to lag), sometimes even blockable CC doesn't get blocked when you block it. This leads to more interruptions in combat flow.

In a game that has counters to every play, it is good that there are counters to the counter. Fear/Fossilize were the best way to deal with tanks before. They will be needed if the new tank meta comes out in force.

Esbia wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Okay, I will draw the picture.


You. Can. Block. CC.

What about when you're out of stamina, or being chain cced or against a zerg of players? Can doesn't mean you always will... But without CC at all you don't have to waste any stamina and can concentrate on moving/dodging/blocking/using your skills without being interrupted. Plus blocking or interrupting CC is still not an ideal solution since it adds an extra animation to break CC which also disrupts the flow of combat. I don't think I'd mind CC so much if the anti-CC block was instantaneous (for example Beads in Smite).

Then you managed your resources badly or were outnumbered over your head. I see no problem at all in that. What you consider disruption of combat flow is for me a well thought out sequence of offensive and defensive moves. I appreciate it very much. I do like that I constantly need to be aware of what happens around me instead of mindlessly going through the same sequence of keypresses ad infinitum.

How's it a poor argument having a difference of opinion about combat design? I think you're taking this much more personally than you need to be. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, I'm saying I dislike a system and explaining why - which is an argument. Saying I have a poor argument because I disagree with you is not an argument.

Managing resources effectively currently in ESO (especially with stamina based builds) is actually impossible. The resource management is less of a choice and more of a restriction now. You either have to choose to dodge or block or use skills or break CC you cannot do them all ever and in many cases if you do one then it will end up getting you killed because you couldn't do the other. Sometimes you need to be able to use everything at your disposal. Plus because of some level design choices (especially in IC because of corridor style level design) you often can't see when you're way in over your head until you get chain cc'ed and you're dead. That's not skillful tactical combat, that's silly.

There's nothing well thought out about pressing 1 button to stop a playing from doing anything so you can damage them to death. What would be well thought out and tactical would be properly timing your dodges and blocks to avoid damage and also positioning yourself properly to avoid damage. Also having a much more mobile enemy to fight also makes killing harder and more tactical. You have to make sure your ability timing is perfect and your positioning is spot on.

Leandor

Esbia wrote: »

How's it a poor argument having a difference of opinion about combat design? I think you're taking this much more personally than you need to be. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, I'm saying I dislike a system and explaining why - which is an argument. Saying I have a poor argument because I disagree with you is not an argument.

I have given many arguments, trying to explain where I can't find the logic in your arguments.

Enjoy your opinion, I will enjoy mine.

Troneon

I agree CC is too much in ESO.
I agree some CC's are stupidly better than a lot of others and there is no balance in ESO
I disagree that CC should be remove.

They need to do a balance tweak to all CC's and decrease the amount they can be spammed.

They do not need to remove them.

Esbia

Troneon wrote: »

I agree CC is too much in ESO.
I agree some CC's are stupidly better than a lot of others and there is no balance in ESO
I disagree that CC should be remove.

They need to do a balance tweak to all CC's and decrease the amount they can be spammed.

They do not need to remove them.

Yeah a relatively faced paced CC system like Smite would work well for me. I don't actually think CC in Smite breaks the flow of combat (that much). But in ESO it's just very irritating.