Should ESO make all DPS so that it costs Magicka instead of Stamina?

Robbmrp

With the Imperial City changes to 0 Stamina Regen while Blocking and the increased cost to Dodge roll, wouldn't it be better if all DPS cost Magicka? This would leave Stamina ONLY for blocking, dodge rolling and sprinting/rapid maneuvers.

Magicka based builds IMO have a greater advantage as they typically only use Stamina for those three things. Their max magicka pool is available for ALL of their DPS spells. Some Tanks are really having a hard time with this mechanic as it's draining their stamina really quickly. With having to put all of their resources into Stamina to be able to tank, they have little left for actual damage. Magicka pools are extremely low for Stamina Builds typically so 2-3 spells and your out of that also. On top of that when you add in light/heavy attacks, there's another drain on Stamina.

I haven't Tanked in this update yet so I can only go from posts being created on it.

I'm not saying we must go this route, just wondering if maybe that would be an equal way to go....

What do you all think?

Avonna

make dodge rolling use a different resource all on its own.

make some sword and board ( tank ) passives return stamina.

blocking in pve should be different in pvp same with ALL skills, they should behave different .

maybe blocking should not cost that much and keep the regen state? not sure about that.

turn back the clock and go back to another patch.

mrskinskull

Robbmrp wrote: »

With the Imperial City changes to 0 Stamina Regen while Blocking and the increased cost to Dodge roll, wouldn't it be better if all DPS cost Magicka? This would leave Stamina ONLY for blocking, dodge rolling and sprinting/rapid maneuvers.

Magicka based builds IMO have a greater advantage as they typically only use Stamina for those three things. Their max magicka pool is available for ALL of their DPS spells. Some Tanks are really having a hard time with this mechanic as it's draining their stamina really quickly. With having to put all of their resources into Stamina to be able to tank, they have little left for actual damage. Magicka pools are extremely low for Stamina Builds typically so 2-3 spells and your out of that also. On top of that when you add in light/heavy attacks, there's another drain on Stamina.

I haven't Tanked in this update yet so I can only go from posts being created on it.

I'm not saying we must go this route, just wondering if maybe that would be an equal way to go....

What do you all think?

You mean make magic builds expend magic when they run?

eNumbra

Robbmrp wrote: »

With the Imperial City changes to 0 Stamina Regen while Blocking and the increased cost to Dodge roll, wouldn't it be better if all DPS cost Magicka? This would leave Stamina ONLY for blocking, dodge rolling and sprinting/rapid maneuvers.

Magicka based builds IMO have a greater advantage as they typically only use Stamina for those three things. Their max magicka pool is available for ALL of their DPS spells. Some Tanks are really having a hard time with this mechanic as it's draining their stamina really quickly. With having to put all of their resources into Stamina to be able to tank, they have little left for actual damage. Magicka pools are extremely low for Stamina Builds typically so 2-3 spells and your out of that also. On top of that when you add in light/heavy attacks, there's another drain on Stamina.

I haven't Tanked in this update yet so I can only go from posts being created on it.

I'm not saying we must go this route, just wondering if maybe that would be an equal way to go....

What do you all think?

So back to how it worked on release; eeeeeyeah, no.

LameoveR

What a ridiculous nonsenses.

Corellon Thromorin

Avonna wrote: »

make dodge rolling use a different resource all on its own.

make some sword and board ( tank ) passives return stamina.

blocking in pve should be different in pvp same with ALL skills, they should behave different .

maybe blocking should not cost that much and keep the regen state? not sure about that.

turn back the clock and go back to another patch.

What wondrous resource would that be? Of course that rolling and dodging must consume stamina, there is no such things as a fourth resource pool in TES.
The problem is that people feel entitled to magic spells that consume stamina.

Robbmrp

mrskinskull wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

With the Imperial City changes to 0 Stamina Regen while Blocking and the increased cost to Dodge roll, wouldn't it be better if all DPS cost Magicka? This would leave Stamina ONLY for blocking, dodge rolling and sprinting/rapid maneuvers.

Magicka based builds IMO have a greater advantage as they typically only use Stamina for those three things. Their max magicka pool is available for ALL of their DPS spells. Some Tanks are really having a hard time with this mechanic as it's draining their stamina really quickly. With having to put all of their resources into Stamina to be able to tank, they have little left for actual damage. Magicka pools are extremely low for Stamina Builds typically so 2-3 spells and your out of that also. On top of that when you add in light/heavy attacks, there's another drain on Stamina.

I haven't Tanked in this update yet so I can only go from posts being created on it.

I'm not saying we must go this route, just wondering if maybe that would be an equal way to go....

What do you all think?

You mean make magic builds expend magic when they run?

They would have to make magicka based builds use magicka for everything stamina related to work that way. I think it would be easier for them to make the DPS spells magicka based instead.

Robbmrp

LameoveR wrote: »

What a ridiculous nonsenses.

You mean like your comment that didn't contribute anything of value to this post....

hrothbern

Robbmrp wrote: »

With the Imperial City changes to 0 Stamina Regen while Blocking and the increased cost to Dodge roll, wouldn't it be better if all DPS cost Magicka? This would leave Stamina ONLY for blocking, dodge rolling and sprinting/rapid maneuvers.

Magicka based builds IMO have a greater advantage as they typically only use Stamina for those three things. Their max magicka pool is available for ALL of their DPS spells. Some Tanks are really having a hard time with this mechanic as it's draining their stamina really quickly. With having to put all of their resources into Stamina to be able to tank, they have little left for actual damage. Magicka pools are extremely low for Stamina Builds typically so 2-3 spells and your out of that also. On top of that when you add in light/heavy attacks, there's another drain on Stamina.

I haven't Tanked in this update yet so I can only go from posts being created on it.

I'm not saying we must go this route, just wondering if maybe that would be an equal way to go....

What do you all think?

Would work much better !!!
Better transparency for understanding, both for players and ZOS people for the logic in the structural system, leading to much less misunderstandings, logic coding glitches, bugs and exploits.

Then Heavy attacks would COST extra Stamina again for the extra damage, like they should

DigitalShibby

This is a stupid idea.

Robbmrp

DigitalShibby wrote: »

This is a stupid idea.

Disagree all you want but at least make an argument for it. Why is it a bad idea, why won't it work, are you afraid that it would put Stamina based builds on an even level with magicka? I can speculate over and over again but cannot read your mind.

Either actually contribute to the post or go elsewhere please....

kongkim

No thx they just need to keep working to find a balance.

Thymos

Robbmrp wrote: »

LameoveR wrote: »

What a ridiculous nonsenses.

You mean like your comment that didn't contribute anything of value to this post....

And another that didn't contribute...

I definitely would not like it if they just made stamina a resource pool that was only expended when dodging or blocking.

rb2001

All of these problems can be fixed if we, and ZOS, stops trying to paint Magicka and Stamina with the same brush. Allow me to explain:

Magicka and stamina are fundamentally different, but right now the mechanics for them are trying to closely model each other in terms of damage.

Differences between Magicka and Stamina

Right now, magicka is used for damaging spells, utility spells, and healing spells. This is crucial to state because physical attacks cannot produce healing (well, a few can, but on the whole, to heal other characters, you need to be magicka), and can only produce damage and utility.

But then there's more! Stamina is also used for roll dodge, sprint, block, break out, these sorts of extra combat actions.

One more difference is that in reality, power and endurance are two very different things. There are humans who can throw a strong hit, but not many, and tire out, and there are humans who are slim and can run forever, but aren't terribly powerful (swimmers, runners).

So where does that get us?

Magicka has a special case in that it allows healing.

Stamina has a special case in that it allows for these extra combat actions (basically, these are for survival).

So we have healing on the magic side, and survivability on the stamina side, and both can deal damage and offer utility.

Solution

Stamina should be broken into 2 attributes, Strength and Endurance.

Strength determines power scaling, and Endurance determines pool size, the same pool being used for roll dodge and what not.

Then you will now have achieved a matching imbalance for the preexisting imbalances of magicka and stamina.

Tinkering with this will allow balance between builds that want to stack physical power or sustain + survivability, or magical damage + sustain + healing, and any combination of all of these different elements.

For magic, it makes sense that if you have more of it, you have more sustain and your spells are more powerful. It would be great if you could choose how much magicka to spend in one spell, variable cost, and make your one spell cost stronger but lose all your magicka, but that's another topic.

Robbmrp

rb2001 wrote: »

All of these problems can be fixed if we, and ZOS, stops trying to paint Magicka and Stamina with the same brush. Allow me to explain:

Magicka and stamina are fundamentally different, but right now the mechanics for them are trying to closely model each other in terms of damage.

Differences between Magicka and Stamina

Right now, magicka is used for damaging spells, utility spells, and healing spells. This is crucial to state because physical attacks cannot produce healing (well, a few can, but on the whole, to heal other characters, you need to be magicka), and can only produce damage and utility.

But then there's more! Stamina is also used for roll dodge, sprint, block, break out, these sorts of extra combat actions.

One more difference is that in reality, power and endurance are two very different things. There are humans who can throw a strong hit, but not many, and tire out, and there are humans who are slim and can run forever, but aren't terribly powerful (swimmers, runners).

So where does that get us?

Magicka has a special case in that it allows healing.

Stamina has a special case in that it allows for these extra combat actions (basically, these are for survival).

So we have healing on the magic side, and survivability on the stamina side, and both can deal damage and offer utility.

Solution

Stamina should be broken into 2 attributes, Strength and Endurance.

Strength determines power scaling, and Endurance determines pool size, the same pool being used for roll dodge and what not.

Then you will now have achieved a matching imbalance for the preexisting imbalances of magicka and stamina.

Tinkering with this will allow balance between builds that want to stack physical power or sustain + survivability, or magical damage + sustain + healing, and any combination of all of these different elements.

For magic, it makes sense that if you have more of it, you have more sustain and your spells are more powerful. It would be great if you could choose how much magicka to spend in one spell, variable cost, and make your one spell cost stronger but lose all your magicka, but that's another topic.

I really like your suggestion about Power and Endurance. That would work for sure. I don't think that ZOS would go for the ability to set a "cost" for a spell though. They could however create both of those relatively easy and separate the mechanics accordingly. So then, if your going melee you could stack more Power than Endurance or account for them accordingly. Since you wouldn't have one main pool for these, you would have a better management of resources.

Great idea.

DaveMoeDee

before changing anything, people need to play more and decide how much magicka and stamina to allocate for their build in the first place. have people been playing with the new rules long enough to know that there aren't stam builds that work as well as magicka builds?

I don't want more stat pools. I prefer to keep it simple.

Splitting stamina into 2 stats would break everything. It is a fundamental change that would mean redoing the math behind everything, redoing all gear, redoing the champion systems, etc.

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO

One of the problems I see is that, ideally, the use of these two separate resources was meant to create build variety. Stamina users had a handful of playstyles that differed from what magika users could do. But in their attempt to "balance" things, the variety of Stam vs Magika has lost its diversity, with the only difference really being what your spammable DPS skill is. Like, Magika builds primary defenses should have been heals and shields, while stam should have been blocking, rolling, and straight up mitigation. Instead, now magika users can easily stack at least some mitigation, block as effectively (though maybe not for as long, depending on build), and stamina users have stam heals via Vigor, Rally, Blood Craze (lol), and a stam shield through bone shield.

So, really, where's the variety? What are we doing? What are the differences between the resource used now? Its just like crushing shock vs wrecking blow. What skill you spam is what defines your build now, since apparently "balance" means everyone should be able to do everything just as effectively as everyone else.

So, in that sense, I kind of agree with OP at this point. Make one pool for offense, one pool for defense, and a health pool. Shields, Heals, Block, Roll, etc cost your defensive resource, while primarily damaging skills cost your offensive pool. Maybe this isn't the best solution, but meh, I don't see build diversity anymore anyway.

Inactive Account

Zos has already limited what builds are usefull, they have made too many changes too fast.

They are rapidly approaching a point that kills many mmos. The point in game play were there are only a small select number of builds and classes that are useful in game play. PvP and PvE both.

They are heading in the wrong direction.

Robbmrp

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO wrote: »

One of the problems I see is that, ideally, the use of these two separate resources was meant to create build variety. Stamina users had a handful of playstyles that differed from what magika users could do. But in their attempt to "balance" things, the variety of Stam vs Magika has lost its diversity, with the only difference really being what your spammable DPS skill is. Like, Magika builds primary defenses should have been heals and shields, while stam should have been blocking, rolling, and straight up mitigation. Instead, now magika users can easily stack at least some mitigation, block as effectively (though maybe not for as long, depending on build), and stamina users have stam heals via Vigor, Rally, Blood Craze (lol), and a stam shield through bone shield.

So, really, where's the variety? What are we doing? What are the differences between the resource used now? Its just like crushing shock vs wrecking blow. What skill you spam is what defines your build now, since apparently "balance" means everyone should be able to do everything just as effectively as everyone else.

So, in that sense, I kind of agree with OP at this point. Make one pool for offense, one pool for defense, and a health pool. Shields, Heals, Block, Roll, etc cost your defensive resource, while primarily damaging skills cost your offensive pool. Maybe this isn't the best solution, but meh, I don't see build diversity anymore anyway.

Yeah. Even if they left light/heavy attacks based on Stamina and moved the Skill Spells to magicka, that would make things more even.

Paradox

Really, I think that they just need to remove healing from the game instead. Healing really destroys my immersion in PvP. I push my Dragon Blood button and my health doesn't move.

Really, healing just needs to go. I think ZoS is already working on it though.

Robbmrp

nobertpaulb16_ESO wrote: »

Zos has already limited what builds are usefull, they have made too many changes too fast.

They are rapidly approaching a point that kills many mmos. The point in game play were there are only a small select number of builds and classes that are useful in game play. PvP and PvE both.

They are heading in the wrong direction.

Which is why this would be a perfect time to get this straightened out. With all the changes to Stamina they seem to be killing that kind of build. Magicka will be able to do more DPS, Healing and Shielding because of the larger pools available. Everyone will eventually move to that kind of build just to stay competitive in PVP.

robkrush

No.