Magika Nightblade Infinite Dark Cloak

Jay_Gally

In full disclosure, my first and primary character is an Imperial Stamina Nightblade. So when the IC update go lives on consoles in a few weeks, I'm going to be affected with the nerf to the refreshing shadows passive along with the rapacious dodge roll penalty. So I'm a bit salty when I came across this vid when I was looking into new magicka builds in anticipation of the update.

https://youtu.be/PEyGdLTpWjw?t=493

I understand the infa dodge roll was a problem, nerfing it is necessary, but applying a penalty to stam recovery and consecutive dodge rolls without penalizing infinite casting Dark/Shadow Cloak??

Additionally, he mentioned that ,during the time the vid was filmed (same link @ 2:50 or so), stealth detect potions would no longer work and even bigger, single target dps won't take you out of stealth. ZOS, please fix this. You've taken away from the survivability of stam users and done nothing, perhaps even buffed, magicka users.

Hexyl

There are a lot of counter for dark cloack. There was not for Dodge rolling.

It's fine like this.

MrGrimey

Jay_Gally wrote: »

In full disclosure, my first and primary character is an Imperial Stamina Nightblade. So when the IC update go lives on consoles in a few weeks, I'm going to be affected with the nerf to the refreshing shadows passive along with the rapacious dodge roll penalty. So I'm a bit salty when I came across this vid when I was looking into new magicka builds in anticipation of the update.

https://youtu.be/PEyGdLTpWjw?t=493

I understand the infa dodge roll was a problem, nerfing it is necessary, but applying a penalty to stam recovery and consecutive dodge rolls without penalizing infinite casting Dark/Shadow Cloak??

Additionally, he mentioned that ,during the time the vid was filmed (same link @ 2:50 or so), stealth detect potions would no longer work and even bigger, single target dps won't take you out of stealth. ZOS, please fix this. You've taken away from the survivability of stam users and done nothing, perhaps even buffed, magicka users.

A bit late on your info, but a few points

- detect potions do work on cloak
- Deltia has like 700 cp, this is a big case to nerf CPs if anything
- He was out of combat, magicka regen is drastically reduced when in combat
- Stealth works about 25% of the time

Kobaal

Spamming cloak over and over wont save you. Believe me. It didnt save me from a ganker last night.

Jay_Gally

MrGrimey wrote: »

Jay_Gally wrote: »

In full disclosure, my first and primary character is an Imperial Stamina Nightblade. So when the IC update go lives on consoles in a few weeks, I'm going to be affected with the nerf to the refreshing shadows passive along with the rapacious dodge roll penalty. So I'm a bit salty when I came across this vid when I was looking into new magicka builds in anticipation of the update.

https://youtu.be/PEyGdLTpWjw?t=493

I understand the infa dodge roll was a problem, nerfing it is necessary, but applying a penalty to stam recovery and consecutive dodge rolls without penalizing infinite casting Dark/Shadow Cloak??

Additionally, he mentioned that ,during the time the vid was filmed (same link @ 2:50 or so), stealth detect potions would no longer work and even bigger, single target dps won't take you out of stealth. ZOS, please fix this. You've taken away from the survivability of stam users and done nothing, perhaps even buffed, magicka users.

A bit late on your info, but a few points

- detect potions do work on cloak
- Deltia has like 700 cp, this is a big case to nerf CPs if anything
- He was out of combat, magicka regen is drastically reduced when in combat
- Stealth works about 25% of the time

I thought they were changing the passives that allowed regen of all pools to regen both in/out of combat? Have they changed that too?

Jay_Gally

Hexyl wrote: »

There are a lot of counter for dark cloack. There was not for Dodge rolling.

It's fine like this.

Maybe I'm missing something since I'm a nightblade myself, but what counters do you speak of?? Now, won't most of those counters be null since single target won't get them out of cloak?

AOE attacks sure, but single target burst players don't have a counter that I know of.

Jay_Gally

Kobaal wrote: »

Spamming cloak over and over wont save you. Believe me. It didnt save me from a ganker last night.

I agree it won't save you, but it adds to your survivibility. Spam dodge roll would only extend me long enough until I got more help which often still ended in me dying. I also am only vet 2 so didn't quite have the stam regen.

Wycks

Cloak can reset a fight thus it being 100x more dangerous, dodge roll 2x and your done.

revonine

To perma cloak in combat you'll have to sacrifice something else to achieve this whether it's enchants or having to run regen drinks instead of tri-stats. I can't speak for people with very large amounts of CP's though.

Eejit1331

revonine wrote: »

To perma cloak in combat you'll have to sacrifice something else to achieve this whether it's enchants or having to run regen drinks instead of tri-stats. I can't speak for people with very large amounts of CP's though.

I'm all spell damage, Breton and I have no problem permanently cloaking.

chevalierknight

MrGrimey wrote: »

Jay_Gally wrote: »

In full disclosure, my first and primary character is an Imperial Stamina Nightblade. So when the IC update go lives on consoles in a few weeks, I'm going to be affected with the nerf to the refreshing shadows passive along with the rapacious dodge roll penalty. So I'm a bit salty when I came across this vid when I was looking into new magicka builds in anticipation of the update.

https://youtu.be/PEyGdLTpWjw?t=493

I understand the infa dodge roll was a problem, nerfing it is necessary, but applying a penalty to stam recovery and consecutive dodge rolls without penalizing infinite casting Dark/Shadow Cloak??

Additionally, he mentioned that ,during the time the vid was filmed (same link @ 2:50 or so), stealth detect potions would no longer work and even bigger, single target dps won't take you out of stealth. ZOS, please fix this. You've taken away from the survivability of stam users and done nothing, perhaps even buffed, magicka users.

A bit late on your info, but a few points

- detect potions do work on cloak
- Deltia has like 700 cp, this is a big case to nerf CPs if anything
- He was out of combat, magicka regen is drastically reduced when in combat
- Stealth works about 25% of the time

Watched his stream he has less then 400 people like need to stop saying stuff like its fact

chevalierknight

Jay_Gally wrote: »

Hexyl wrote: »

There are a lot of counter for dark cloack. There was not for Dodge rolling.

It's fine like this.

Maybe I'm missing something since I'm a nightblade myself, but what counters do you speak of?? Now, won't most of those counters be null since single target won't get them out of cloak?

AOE attacks sure, but single target burst players don't have a counter that I know of.

Mark pots chargers theres 3

MrGrimey

Jay_Gally wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

Jay_Gally wrote: »

In full disclosure, my first and primary character is an Imperial Stamina Nightblade. So when the IC update go lives on consoles in a few weeks, I'm going to be affected with the nerf to the refreshing shadows passive along with the rapacious dodge roll penalty. So I'm a bit salty when I came across this vid when I was looking into new magicka builds in anticipation of the update.

https://youtu.be/PEyGdLTpWjw?t=493

I understand the infa dodge roll was a problem, nerfing it is necessary, but applying a penalty to stam recovery and consecutive dodge rolls without penalizing infinite casting Dark/Shadow Cloak??

Additionally, he mentioned that ,during the time the vid was filmed (same link @ 2:50 or so), stealth detect potions would no longer work and even bigger, single target dps won't take you out of stealth. ZOS, please fix this. You've taken away from the survivability of stam users and done nothing, perhaps even buffed, magicka users.

A bit late on your info, but a few points

- detect potions do work on cloak
- Deltia has like 700 cp, this is a big case to nerf CPs if anything
- He was out of combat, magicka regen is drastically reduced when in combat
- Stealth works about 25% of the time

I thought they were changing the passives that allowed regen of all pools to regen both in/out of combat? Have they changed that too?

It's the other way around, they are allowing passives to effect your out of combat regen...

Regardless, In combat, all regen is much slower. Don't know why Deltia used out of combat cloaking to show how he can perma cloak, he's a smart enough of a player to know the difference.

leepalmer95

MrGrimey wrote: »

Jay_Gally wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

Jay_Gally wrote: »

In full disclosure, my first and primary character is an Imperial Stamina Nightblade. So when the IC update go lives on consoles in a few weeks, I'm going to be affected with the nerf to the refreshing shadows passive along with the rapacious dodge roll penalty. So I'm a bit salty when I came across this vid when I was looking into new magicka builds in anticipation of the update.

https://youtu.be/PEyGdLTpWjw?t=493

I understand the infa dodge roll was a problem, nerfing it is necessary, but applying a penalty to stam recovery and consecutive dodge rolls without penalizing infinite casting Dark/Shadow Cloak??

Additionally, he mentioned that ,during the time the vid was filmed (same link @ 2:50 or so), stealth detect potions would no longer work and even bigger, single target dps won't take you out of stealth. ZOS, please fix this. You've taken away from the survivability of stam users and done nothing, perhaps even buffed, magicka users.

A bit late on your info, but a few points

- detect potions do work on cloak
- Deltia has like 700 cp, this is a big case to nerf CPs if anything
- He was out of combat, magicka regen is drastically reduced when in combat
- Stealth works about 25% of the time

I thought they were changing the passives that allowed regen of all pools to regen both in/out of combat? Have they changed that too?

It's the other way around, they are allowing passives to effect your out of combat regen...

Regardless, In combat, all regen is much slower. Don't know why Deltia used out of combat cloaking to show how he can perma cloak, he's a smart enough of a player to know the difference.

It's still easy to perma cloak, even more since nb's now get 15% magicka regen passive now.

Francescolg

Jay_Gally wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something since I'm a nightblade myself, but what counters do you speak of?? Now, won't most of those counters be null since single target won't get them out of cloak?

AOE attacks sure, but single target burst players don't have a counter that I know of.

Exactly my point! In ANY serious 1v1 encounter, a class, which has a cheap "hit'n re-stealth" playstyle, will always (!) have a huuge advantage. Not just the strongest players but anyone, who understands how strong the "hit'n re-stealth" playstyle is, will see how OP it is. It is simply not "balanced", if the stealth-char can use his "heavy hitting attacks", while mine are all (!) neglected by Dark Cloak, exept you're fast enough to hit with a "heavy hitting skill".

Countering Dark Cloak, just by using area effects, or 10 sec detect potions, IS NOT enough for a "balanced 1 vs 1", as in any 1v1 you can't win only by using area effects. And even if you use them, that does not prevent the NB from simply re-stealthing.
At last, Damage over Time effects should be working as anti-stealth, as in many other games!
Channeled "heavy hitting" skills, are also uneffective vs a magicka NB, as a simple roll dodge + dark cloak lets them get away easily.
To use PBAE or GTAE skills for the battle, is a joke for any skilled NB.

But the biggest problem for me. is that the developers appearingly lack "profound" PvP-knowledge, as they have been warned left and right, that the magicka NB might get op. Nonetheless, they keep buffing them, whilst nurfing core class abilities of other classes, as Blazing Shield was one for the Templar.
This "lack of profound knowledge" is not good for the future of the game, if it has one!

MrGrimey

Francescolg wrote: »

Jay_Gally wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something since I'm a nightblade myself, but what counters do you speak of?? Now, won't most of those counters be null since single target won't get them out of cloak?

AOE attacks sure, but single target burst players don't have a counter that I know of.

Exactly my point! In ANY serious 1v1 encounter, a class, which has a cheap "hit'n re-stealth" playstyle, will always (!) have a huuge advantage. Not just the strongest players but anyone, who understands how strong the "hit'n re-stealth" playstyle is, will see how OP it is. It is simply not "balanced", if the stealth-char can use his "heavy hitting attacks", while mine are all (!) neglected by Dark Cloak, exept you're fast enough to hit with a "heavy hitting skill".

Countering Dark Cloak, just by using area effects, or 10 sec detect potions, IS NOT enough for a "balanced 1 vs 1", as in any 1v1 you can't win only by using area effects. And even if you use them, that does not prevent the NB from simply re-stealthing.
At last, Damage over Time effects should be working as anti-stealth, as in many other games!
Channeled "heavy hitting" skills, are also uneffective vs a magicka NB, as a simple roll dodge + dark cloak lets them get away easily.
To use PBAE or GTAE skills for the battle, is a joke for any skilled NB.

But the biggest problem for me. is that the developers appearingly lack "profound" PvP-knowledge, as they have been warned left and right, that the magicka NB might get op. Nonetheless, they keep buffing them, whilst nurfing core class abilities of other classes, as Blazing Shield was one for the Templar.
This "lack of profound knowledge" is not good for the future of the game, if it has one!

It's too bad this game isn't balanced for 1v1... Besides, give it a few weeks and you'll see, the problem won't be NBs running away with cloak. Very high damage and very high mitigation tank builds are emerging that will make you miss cloaking NBs

Francescolg

MrGrimey wrote: »

It's too bad this game isn't balanced for 1v1...

You say that, I'll tell you otherwise: the less classes a game has, the more it should be balanced, even for 1v1.
This "excuse" is what is destroying ESO and people have been arguing this for other 6 months now.

This answer is dull, too easy and has been repeated too often, making it an empty signifier! An empty signifier is what this game has become for many.

I'd love, I'd really pay thousands of dollars to a "ZOS whistleblower", to have a look at their player statistics, not just who left but also which classes are played "most of the time in pvp" for each month (/or similar). Other games offered much more "insight".
If these "insights" are not published, there is a reason to do so and for ESO this reason is quite obvious, it is: "make it uncanny"

MrGrimey

Francescolg wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

It's too bad this game isn't balanced for 1v1...

You say that, I'll tell you otherwise: the less classes a game has, the more it should be balanced, even for 1v1.
This "excuse" is what is destroying ESO and people have been arguing this for other 6 months now.

This answer is dull, too easy and has been repeated too often, making it an empty signifier! An empty signifier is what this game has become for many.

I'd love, I'd really pay thousands of dollars to a "ZOS whistleblower", to have a look at their player statistics, not just who left but also which classes are played "most of the time in pvp" for each month (/or similar). Other games offered much more "insight".
If these "insights" are not published, there is a reason to do so and for ESO this reason is quite obvious, it is: $ money $ money $ money $$ ....

You're argument would hold much more weight if ESO had paid class changes, but it doesn't. Cloak is not a problem and very easily countered, you just need to learn how to fight against it... Like I said, wait and see, you'll see what the real problem in IC is in the upcoming months

MrGrimey

Jay_Gally wrote: »

In full disclosure, my first and primary character is an Imperial Stamina Nightblade. So when the IC update go lives on consoles in a few weeks, I'm going to be affected with the nerf to the refreshing shadows passive along with the rapacious dodge roll penalty. So I'm a bit salty when I came across this vid when I was looking into new magicka builds in anticipation of the update.

Btw op, imperial makes the best magicka or stamina NB due to your health passive, so no need to be salty about it just because you're not a magicka race. It's literally a pay to win race that can do both kinds of specs, ask any top PVPer and they will tell you the same. Now, that makes me salty

Jay_Gally

MrGrimey wrote: »

Jay_Gally wrote: »

In full disclosure, my first and primary character is an Imperial Stamina Nightblade. So when the IC update go lives on consoles in a few weeks, I'm going to be affected with the nerf to the refreshing shadows passive along with the rapacious dodge roll penalty. So I'm a bit salty when I came across this vid when I was looking into new magicka builds in anticipation of the update.

Btw op, imperial makes the best magicka or stamina NB due to your health passive, so no need to be salty about it just because you're not a magicka race. It's literally a pay to win race that can do both kinds of specs, ask any top PVPer and they will tell you the same. Now, that makes me salty

I've heard that from a few ppl. I'm a bit reluctant to change my ways and learn a new strategy with a magicka build since I haven't even yet reached my stam character beyond vet2 rank. I'll also have to rank up the resto staff/ light armor line since that's what I've seen for magicka nightblades. Eventually I'll prob re-spec it. Any personal advise?

Jay_Gally

MrGrimey wrote: »

Francescolg wrote: »

Jay_Gally wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something since I'm a nightblade myself, but what counters do you speak of?? Now, won't most of those counters be null since single target won't get them out of cloak?

AOE attacks sure, but single target burst players don't have a counter that I know of.

Exactly my point! In ANY serious 1v1 encounter, a class, which has a cheap "hit'n re-stealth" playstyle, will always (!) have a huuge advantage. Not just the strongest players but anyone, who understands how strong the "hit'n re-stealth" playstyle is, will see how OP it is. It is simply not "balanced", if the stealth-char can use his "heavy hitting attacks", while mine are all (!) neglected by Dark Cloak, exept you're fast enough to hit with a "heavy hitting skill".

Countering Dark Cloak, just by using area effects, or 10 sec detect potions, IS NOT enough for a "balanced 1 vs 1", as in any 1v1 you can't win only by using area effects. And even if you use them, that does not prevent the NB from simply re-stealthing.
At last, Damage over Time effects should be working as anti-stealth, as in many other games!
Channeled "heavy hitting" skills, are also uneffective vs a magicka NB, as a simple roll dodge + dark cloak lets them get away easily.
To use PBAE or GTAE skills for the battle, is a joke for any skilled NB.

But the biggest problem for me. is that the developers appearingly lack "profound" PvP-knowledge, as they have been warned left and right, that the magicka NB might get op. Nonetheless, they keep buffing them, whilst nurfing core class abilities of other classes, as Blazing Shield was one for the Templar.
This "lack of profound knowledge" is not good for the future of the game, if it has one!

It's too bad this game isn't balanced for 1v1... Besides, give it a few weeks and you'll see, the problem won't be NBs running away with cloak. Very high damage and very high mitigation tank builds are emerging that will make you miss cloaking NBs

For me personally, I don't mind tanks being op since I'm more defensive myself and a "behind the lines player" letting the tanks go at it with each other. I usually find myself getting ganked by nightblades and even sorc's. So naturally I find myself getting aggravated by the possible infinite cloaking nightblades and streaking sorc's.

Jumper45

Radiant Magelight:
Summon a mote of magelight to enhance your spellcasting, granting you Major Prophecy, which increases your Spell Critical rating by 10.
The mote also reveals hidden or invisible enemies, prevents being stunned by stealth attacks, and reduces damage from stealth attacks by 50% for you and nearby allies.
While toggled, your Max Magicka is reduced by 5%.
New Effect:
Reveals hidden enemies and nearby allies take less damage from stealth attacks.
If you dont have this on in pvp then you deserve everything that happens to you via stealthed targets.
-Drops the mic and walks away-

Jay_Gally

Jumper45 wrote: »

Radiant Magelight:
Summon a mote of magelight to enhance your spellcasting, granting you Major Prophecy, which increases your Spell Critical rating by 10.
The mote also reveals hidden or invisible enemies, prevents being stunned by stealth attacks, and reduces damage from stealth attacks by 50% for you and nearby allies.
While toggled, your Max Magicka is reduced by 5%.
New Effect:
Reveals hidden enemies and nearby allies take less damage from stealth attacks.
If you dont have this on in pvp then you deserve everything that happens to you via stealthed targets.
-Drops the mic and walks away-

Sure that'll help with stealthed gankers, but the issue this post is trying to address is the cloakers have no penalty to continually cloak. If they have concealed weapon slotted, they also have a 25% speed buff ie keep spammin' that cloak baby to "survive". Survivability, the purpose of this post. Penalize spam cloakers just like spam dodgers.

MrGrimey

Jay_Gally wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

Jay_Gally wrote: »

In full disclosure, my first and primary character is an Imperial Stamina Nightblade. So when the IC update go lives on consoles in a few weeks, I'm going to be affected with the nerf to the refreshing shadows passive along with the rapacious dodge roll penalty. So I'm a bit salty when I came across this vid when I was looking into new magicka builds in anticipation of the update.

Btw op, imperial makes the best magicka or stamina NB due to your health passive, so no need to be salty about it just because you're not a magicka race. It's literally a pay to win race that can do both kinds of specs, ask any top PVPer and they will tell you the same. Now, that makes me salty

I've heard that from a few ppl. I'm a bit reluctant to change my ways and learn a new strategy with a magicka build since I haven't even yet reached my stam character beyond vet2 rank. I'll also have to rank up the resto staff/ light armor line since that's what I've seen for magicka nightblades. Eventually I'll prob re-spec it. Any personal advise?

Ok, so you're not even vet14 and you're trying to get a move that's giving you trouble nerfed? I have a redguard NB, and they make even worse magicka NBs than an imperial. I have destro, resto and light armor leveled to 50 and I've never specced magicka with my NB. I might try magicka, I might not, some of the top PVPers are saying that stamina is still better for NB, but it's too early to tell.

My biggest advice is while you're still leveling and grinding with your current spec, put on a few peices of light armor, and put a destro and resto ability on your loadout bar. Even without those weapons equipped, you will level up those skill lines while playing. Btw, magicka NB works better with dual wields than with a destro due to higher spell damage. This way you will have an option to try it out instead of complaining about something that you have no experience with

hardcore_gmr

Best counter to magic nightblade is radiant light (mage light morph) it helps detect stealth or invisible enemies, reduces their damage by 56%for you and nearby allies and is always on. It is quite literally the anti-cloak skill!

Xsorus

Best counter is piercing jabs lol

BrassRazoo

Use a detect pot .. oh wait.

JDar

There's a reason Cloak is the first skill in the skill line for nightblades. It can be the first thing you ever put on your bar! The developers meant for Cloak to be fundamental to the gameplay experience for nightblades. If you start recklessly chopping at it with the nerfhammer without understanding that you're going to ruin the class. So you can't compare this to dodge roll or bolt escape.

Without cloak, magicka nightblades have low spell power and very little armor because you have to wear light armor to permacloak. With cloak up our spell damage is comparable to sorcs, but of course without the powerful Hardened Ward at our disposal.

Just because you're "salty" that your stamina nightblade can't do the cool things you see magicka nightblades doing is not a reason to nerf it. Furthermore I suggest you try leveling to VR14 and getting some experience under your belt with your stamblade and then tell me if you think you're at a huge disadvantage. You're not. Stamblades are still doing very well, maybe even stronger still than magicka nightblades.

I don't like heavy armor templars that block and heal themselves up after my burst almost kills them but you don't see me calling for nerfs on Breath of Life do you? That's basically what you're doing here.

Finally, please keep in mind that Deltia is out of combat when he permacloaks in that video. In real situations, you're going to be in combat with lower regen rates and running low after using your magicka abilities. I frequently die because I didn't have enough magicka to escape a bad situation. That's another way to counter cloak. Run them out of magicka.

JDar

Jay_Gally wrote: »

Hexyl wrote: »

There are a lot of counter for dark cloack. There was not for Dodge rolling.

It's fine like this.

Maybe I'm missing something since I'm a nightblade myself, but what counters do you speak of?? Now, won't most of those counters be null since single target won't get them out of cloak?

AOE attacks sure, but single target burst players don't have a counter that I know of.

Piercing Mark for one. However, if you are using a very specialized build like that then you can't complain that you can't counter everything. Try Bombard or Power Extraction if you are a stamblade.

If you know there is a magicka nightblade near you, you need to block and keep your shields until you figure out where they are.

Brantleyx

Realistically, and Honestly at the end of the day the class is a "Nightblade". Nightblades are suppose to be played magicka based, and stay in the shadow. That's even what the description says on the character create screen when hovering over NB. I don't it needs to fixed at all, Its really becoming a out of hand issue now-a-days, Nerf this - Decrease this - make this crittable. Nerfing cloak would destroy everything a nightblade is suppose to be. There is nothing broken about that, It's a resource game - Unlike neverwinter. If you can accommodate the pool then you can spam the move as many times.

Jay_Gally

JDar wrote: »

There's a reason Cloak is the first skill in the skill line for nightblades. It can be the first thing you ever put on your bar! The developers meant for Cloak to be fundamental to the gameplay experience for nightblades. If you start recklessly chopping at it with the nerfhammer without understanding that you're going to ruin the class. So you can't compare this to dodge roll or bolt escape.

Without cloak, magicka nightblades have low spell power and very little armor because you have to wear light armor to permacloak. With cloak up our spell damage is comparable to sorcs, but of course without the powerful Hardened Ward at our disposal.

Just because you're "salty" that your stamina nightblade can't do the cool things you see magicka nightblades doing is not a reason to nerf it. Furthermore I suggest you try leveling to VR14 and getting some experience under your belt with your stamblade and then tell me if you think you're at a huge disadvantage. You're not. Stamblades are still doing very well, maybe even stronger still than magicka nightblades.

I don't like heavy armor templars that block and heal themselves up after my burst almost kills them but you don't see me calling for nerfs on Breath of Life do you? That's basically what you're doing here.

Finally, please keep in mind that Deltia is out of combat when he permacloaks in that video. In real situations, you're going to be in combat with lower regen rates and running low after using your magicka abilities. I frequently die because I didn't have enough magicka to escape a bad situation. That's another way to counter cloak. Run them out of magicka.

I think you're missing the point. There is no disincentive to not spam cloak like there is for dodge roll. If we're penalizing a method of survivability for one class/ resource, do it for all. Fair enough right?

So because others were salty about some stamblades infa dodge rolling I can't be about other class abilities that need to be looked at again??

Also assiasans blade and strife are the first abilities unlocked for their respective tree. Are they "fundamental" to nightblade gameplay? Most would say no. Not for stam users anyway.