Tel var stones and zergs in IC

Ojustaboo

Iggybot wrote: »

Honestly give it some time, I joined a zergs for a bit and did not gain much from it. It's really not that profitable for AP or TV stones and once people figure that out it will die down hopefully.

Yep, I logged in, joined a huge crowd with 2 guild mates, after 10 mins we decided to go it alone as the rewards were non existent.

ItsMeToo

KriHavok wrote: »

It all comes down to stone management, you have to be able to decide when farming stones is enough and bank them before the risk becomes too high and you lose your stones.

That would be 1 stone.

KriHavok

ItsMeToo wrote: »

KriHavok wrote: »

It all comes down to stone management, you have to be able to decide when farming stones is enough and bank them before the risk becomes too high and you lose your stones.

That would be 1 stone.

I don't know if you're exaggerating or just having an unlucky time. If it is a real issue for you, just bank any stones you can gather or adapt your play style by finding areas that you're less likely to get ganked at, or adjust the size of the group that you're in. The Imperial City is quite large and whether it's the Sewers or the Districts, there are some areas that are less populated than others and easier to farm stones at.

MrGrimey

Soarin' wrote: »

There definitely needs to be a defensive mechanics against mindless zerg PVP. Losses incurred by a player should scale inversely to the number of active aggressors in the area. For instance:

Killed by 1-2 players: 80% asset loss
Killed by 3-4 players: 50% asset loss
Killed by 6-8 players: 30% asset loss
Killed by 9+ players: 15% asset loss

Currently the game does not do enough to place incentives on small scale skirmish PVP. Give the rewards to those who take the greatest risks and give nothing to those who do not reinforce your desired game play.

I made a thread asking for the very mechanic yesterday (although mine was less detailed). This is a perfect system to discourage zergs

The new unkillable tank meta mixed with safely earning tv stones in a group with no penalty, really makes zerging the only way to go in IC

Alcast

Soarin' wrote: »

There definitely needs to be a defensive mechanics against mindless zerg PVP. Losses incurred by a player should scale inversely to the number of active aggressors in the area. For instance:

Killed by 1-2 players: 80% asset loss
Killed by 3-4 players: 50% asset loss
Killed by 6-8 players: 30% asset loss
Killed by 9+ players: 15% asset loss

Currently the game does not do enough to place incentives on small scale skirmish PVP. Give the rewards to those who take the greatest risks and give nothing to those who do not reinforce your desired game play.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Suntzu1414

things that get me pissed off:

1. zerg deaths (1vxxx)
2. insta-kills (dps 25k+) -- macrolove

there is little zeni can do. (i just accept it as ..price of play)
because, the zergs / instas will just figure a way around..any change
--change %, by number killed --- zergs disband or focus attack

the only thing i see.. that can be done, is a reduction of % lost.
make it so, its less efficient to kill other players, then killing daedra.

kill daedra (get 10 stones) - 1 min time
kill pvp enemy (get 5 stones) - 1 min time

disincentivizing zergs over time, will get them to change focus.
but, you will not stop them..


Kill Well
ST

Arunei

Robbmrp wrote: »

Hopefully there will be smaller groups made for IC in the future. There isn't any point in joining a group of more than 12 at the most as half the group doesn't get any loot/stones. @ZOS should just disable group sizes over 6 within IC. That would be the simplest fix and could probably be done in a hot fix.

You can still zerg w/o grouping, which is pretty much what zergs are; either one or two smaller groups that have picked up lots of stragglers, or large numbers of solo people clumping together.

DovresMalven

Zerg gameplay is definitely something that is radically dividing the community. Some people are comfortable and have fun in big zergs *lame*cough* and some of us like to navigate quickly and decisively through the battlefield in small groups *haveskill*cough* .

That said, IC seems to have a place for both types. It is evident though that zerg gameplay is getting the a lot of love from ZOS, though- contrary to the effect it has on the performance of their game. /shrug

Pangnirtung

bowmanz607 wrote: »

People will slow down in zerg in once they realize you don't get enough stones from zerging. You also have to remember that population in ic will be at max for a couple weeks on most servers because it is new.

I doubt it. People zerg in Cyrodiil without the stone reward.

Zerging is the only way that some people can be effective in PVP.

Dromede

I honestly don't see what's the huge deal about zergs. Remove them - people will still complaining about gankers. Remove them - they will complain about random bosses that you can't kill solo.

Wanna be competitive? Join a good pvp guild. Don't wanna burn fire with fire? Figure out a way to escape faster with less damage done. Invest in sneeking passives, bolt escapes, shield strength, anything, just don't complain. I hope nothing's going to change just because some players wanna treat a pvp area like a pve zone.

On the other hand, i like the suggestion to scale the stone loss with the amount of people to contributed to your death. That sounds like a reasonable compromise. Makes running in zergs even more effective though)

Huckdabuck

DovresMalven wrote: »

Zerg gameplay is definitely something that is radically dividing the community. Some people are comfortable and have fun in big zergs *lame*cough* and some of us like to navigate quickly and decisively through the battlefield in small groups *haveskill*cough* .

That said, IC seems to have a place for both types. It is evident though that zerg gameplay is getting the a lot of love from ZOS, though- contrary to the effect it has on the performance of their game. /shrug

Large zerg of 25+ versus small group of 8-12 AND small group of 8 versus 1-4 players equals the same *lame and skill less*cough*. All about that perspective! Bravo for the attempt but get back in the grinder....we needs those TVs.

Iggybot

Pangnirtung wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

People will slow down in zerg in once they realize you don't get enough stones from zerging. You also have to remember that population in ic will be at max for a couple weeks on most servers because it is new.

I doubt it. People zerg in Cyrodiil without the stone reward.

Zerging is the only way that some people can be effective in PVP.

People zerg in cyrodil because there are objectives to capture being defended by a zerg and because it's the most effective way for inexperienced players to get AP.

Zergs in IC have little benefit besides safety. If you want TV stones, solo, small group pve, or small group pvp are better.

DovresMalven

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Large zerg of 25+ versus small group of 8-12 AND small group of 8 versus 1-4 players equals the same *lame and skill less*cough*. All about that perspective! Bravo for the attempt but get back in the grinder....we needs those TVs.

what you said doesnt even make sense...

MrGrimey

Iggybot wrote: »

Pangnirtung wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

People will slow down in zerg in once they realize you don't get enough stones from zerging. You also have to remember that population in ic will be at max for a couple weeks on most servers because it is new.

I doubt it. People zerg in Cyrodiil without the stone reward.

Zerging is the only way that some people can be effective in PVP.

People zerg in cyrodil because there are objectives to capture being defended by a zerg and because it's the most effective way for inexperienced players to get AP.

Zergs in IC have little benefit besides safety. If you want TV stones, solo, small group pve, or small group pvp are better.

Earning guaranteed 10 tv stones > risk of possibly losing 200 stones

That's why it's called farming

xaraan

Yep. Pretty much every problem zos was told about and ignored is a huge problem with this patch.

bowmanz607

Pangnirtung wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

People will slow down in zerg in once they realize you don't get enough stones from zerging. You also have to remember that population in ic will be at max for a couple weeks on most servers because it is new.

I doubt it. People zerg in Cyrodiil without the stone reward.

Zerging is the only way that some people can be effective in PVP.

Exactly what was stated above. Zerg was effective for ap and objectives. Not effective for getting stones.

DovresMalven wrote: »

Zerg gameplay is definitely something that is radically dividing the community. Some people are comfortable and have fun in big zergs *lame*cough* and some of us like to navigate quickly and decisively through the battlefield in small groups *haveskill*cough* .

That said, IC seems to have a place for both types. It is evident though that zerg gameplay is getting the a lot of love from ZOS, though- contrary to the effect it has on the performance of their game. /shrug

The coordinated large group play very much involves skill and group coordination. The pug zergs are crap and require no skill

Pirhana7_ESO

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Hello
I played a few hours with some friends in the Ic and farmed a good amount of stones. but after some time there were zergs everywhere. You do a boss? bam 20 ppl all stomes lost. you do a quest? bam 20 ppl all stones lost. you rust run around killing deadra? bam 20 ppl all stones lost...
seriously this ruines the whole concept of IC. I really liked it in the first place where just solo players and groups of 4 were running around. There was a chance to avoid them but how do you avoid 20 ppl who just jump in your back?

Thats why I got the idea that you should loose less stones the more ppl are resposible for your death. Like 1 kills you you loose 80% for 2 pll its 70 and so on so the zerging is not worth it anymore and they are forced to go and make groups of 4 people. This would make it a lot more enjoyable in my opinion

The main problem is all 3 sides having access at the same time. They need to make it so 1 side controls it like they origionally planned and how Darkness Falls worked in DAOC. You will ONLY see the zerg when that side gains control, they will come in and clear out the enemy. Then it actually becomes a PVE zone where you can get stones and not lose them to enemy zerg, you just have to watch your back from sneakers and small skirmishes. Basically the PVP we actually want inside. Then eventually your side will lose access because most of your alliance is inside IC and not defending Cyrodiil from the full forces of the locked out enemy. Then their zerg comes in to clear you out. And the system repeats.

You dont always have access but when you do, you can actually farm stones without losing them to enemy zergs. And for teh most part if you are around fellow alliance members you can get stones in peace until your side loses control.

Teridaxus

We warned the people on pts, but everything we got was l2p.

Pirhana7_ESO

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Hello
I played a few hours with some friends in the Ic and farmed a good amount of stones. but after some time there were zergs everywhere. You do a boss? bam 20 ppl all stomes lost. you do a quest? bam 20 ppl all stones lost. you rust run around killing deadra? bam 20 ppl all stones lost...
seriously this ruines the whole concept of IC. I really liked it in the first place where just solo players and groups of 4 were running around. There was a chance to avoid them but how do you avoid 20 ppl who just jump in your back?

Thats why I got the idea that you should loose less stones the more ppl are resposible for your death. Like 1 kills you you loose 80% for 2 pll its 70 and so on so the zerging is not worth it anymore and they are forced to go and make groups of 4 people. This would make it a lot more enjoyable in my opinion

---

The main problem is all 3 sides having access at the same time. They need to make it so 1 side controls it like they origionally planned and how Darkness Falls worked in DAOC. You will ONLY see the zerg when that side gains control, they will come in and clear out the enemy. Then it actually becomes a PVE zone where you can get stones and not lose them to enemy zerg, you just have to watch your back from sneakers and small skirmishes. Basically the PVP we actually want inside. Then eventually your side will lose access because most of your alliance is inside IC and not defending Cyrodiil from the full forces of the locked out enemy. Then their zerg comes in to clear you out. And the system repeats.

You dont always have access but when you do, you can actually farm stones without losing them to enemy zergs. And for teh most part if you are around fellow alliance members you can get stones in peace until your side loses control.

ReCreare

Zergbads will be zergbads. What I don't understand is how they even do it. I tried for about an hour, and it wasn't even fun. I left my zerg, went solo (sometimes small groups) and went around picking off the stragglers. There's always stragglers. Not to mention with some decent AOE/Shield Spamming it's not too hard to break up the zerg. IC is super fun, sans zerg. Thanks for the content ZoS.

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I didn't realize a group of 20 people qualifies as zerg. Seems like a normal sized group of guild members doing PvP.

Dromede wrote: »

I honestly don't see what's the huge deal about zergs. Remove them - people will still complaining about gankers. Remove them - they will complain about random bosses that you can't kill solo.

Wanna be competitive? Join a good pvp guild. Don't wanna burn fire with fire? Figure out a way to escape faster with less damage done. Invest in sneeking passives, bolt escapes, shield strength, anything, just don't complain. I hope nothing's going to change just because some players wanna treat a pvp area like a pve zone.

On the other hand, i like the suggestion to scale the stone loss with the amount of people to contributed to your death. That sounds like a reasonable compromise. Makes running in zergs even more effective though)

I think you have it a little bit backwards....People who run small pvp groups are not asking to treat IC like a pve zone, we asking for a viable way to take on double our numbers through coordination such as bomb groups. Something that well organized pvp guilds have been doing since launch. ( check out some of the RAGE videos if you need some evidence) With burst completly out the window it makes bomb groups (which is the true counter zerg strategy) unable to take on superior numbers because everything can be healed through. Right now the pvp meta seems to be get 24 or go home, having Imperial City with gated access would help alleviate the zerging but utimately ZoS needs to reduce the rewards these large groups get in order to discrourage people from zerging.

Lord Xanhorn

consider the following....

You and 3 of your friends venture out to collect stones. through the course of an hour, you all collect 500 stones a pc by killing mobs, bosses, and maybe collecting a chest or scamp.

Then a group of 20 people come zerging in and wipe you out. Now you say that there's no benefit to zergs but the numbers say otherwise.

If you are in a group of 20 people, you could easily start your run with 1000 stones so you have the 3x multiplier. Very little chance of dying.

Now your zerg comes across the group of 4 people who all have about 500 stones a person.

(4 players x 500 stones) x 80% = 1600 stones.

1600 / 20 person zerg = 80 stones per person

80 x 3X multiplier = 240 stones

Each person in the zerg could get up to 240 stones from that group of 4 people cause they are running with over 1k stones with little chance of dying cause of the power of the zerg.

The only threat really is another zerg.

Hence how this game is going to be zergVzerg. It just makes sense.

PBpsy

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Hello
I played a few hours with some friends in the Ic and farmed a good amount of stones. but after some time there were zergs everywhere. You do a boss? bam 20 ppl all stomes lost. you do a quest? bam 20 ppl all stones lost. you rust run around killing deadra? bam 20 ppl all stones lost...
seriously this ruines the whole concept of IC. I really liked it in the first place where just solo players and groups of 4 were running around. There was a chance to avoid them but how do you avoid 20 ppl who just jump in your back?

Thats why I got the idea that you should loose less stones the more ppl are resposible for your death. Like 1 kills you you loose 80% for 2 pll its 70 and so on so the zerging is not worth it anymore and they are forced to go and make groups of 4 people. This would make it a lot more enjoyable in my opinion

What do you mean it ruins the concept of the IC? That is the whole damn concept of the IC as advertised since the beginning.. ZOS was very open about what they wanted to do with the IC for a long time and your description shows that they have fulfilled all of their goals very well.

Xendyn

You got what you asked for, you made the bed, now lay in it.
You have large groups running in IC from All alliances because you had to have this "all-access pass"

If we had controlled access, the large groups would come, clear the city out, then break up into smaller ones and you'd have less problems with enemies in there until access switched. Worked in DAOC, would work fine here.

But no, we couldn't have that.
Welcome to what you created.

Nebthet78

Xendyn wrote: »

You got what you asked for, you made the bed, now lay in it.
You have large groups running in IC from All alliances because you had to have this "all-access pass"

If we had controlled access, the large groups would come, clear the city out, then break up into smaller ones and you'd have less problems with enemies in there until access switched. Worked in DAOC, would work fine here.

But no, we couldn't have that.
Welcome to what you created.

The problem is, these huge zergs will just go to Cyro and change the map in under half an hour. I have seen it happen with GoS when enough AD players couldn't get together to balance the fight.

Frankly, maybe ZOS needs to implement a timed window for access. 1.5hrs each with a half hour of shared in between to give players time to run back to their base or run across other pvp players.

I don't know what the solution is.

It was just so stupid of ZOS to put in gaining mats behind a zone for PVP, because most of the complaints are going to come from PVE players who mostly don't like PvP and hate the zergs and ganking even more.

Perhaps putting in a PVE Toggle where you get no stone multiplier would solve this issue and at least make the PVE players happy while allowing the PVP players to PVP. Either way, mixing that much PVE with PVP is not good. IC makes a great PVE zone for groups similar to Craglorn, BUT it was meant as a PVP zone but I have seen no PVP objectives in there, only PVE ones.

It honestly feels like this zone was created for PVE players initially and it was changed to allow PVP at a later date to give those players something different to do.

ewhite106b16_ESO

Only one side having access at a time to IC just creates a boring PVE zone. Group size needs to be capped at 12 in IC (this creates more problems for zergs then you would suspect) AND TV stone gain should be cut to zero if there are more then say 12 allied players in the area of the kill. TV stones are already divided up based on # of allied players in the area whether you are grouped or not, so this shouldn't add any extra code.

Dyride

Just to give a reference from the other side. We ran around last night and did a skyshard run thru IC. We had several small battles and a few Guild versus Guild fights.

The TV stone gains in a 24 person group fighting others is very small. We gained a decent amount just because of the amount of mobs killed but I was getting 10x per hour running solo and in small group.

The loot was HORRIBLE, like really bad.

The likelihood of getting the Trophies while in a 24 person group is very low, and I think the bosses are similar to Craglorn where no loot drops if there are more than 12 people.

So I would agree that large groups will sort themselves out given a little time.

The tight corridors will favor movement and using chokepoints that allows a small group to wipe larger ones. It is much harder to corral people and prevent them from pugging out chasing butterflies.

Last but not least. This is the result of there being no requirements for access to Imperial City. Hopefully we get some changes in a few of the campaign rules.

RedTalon

Bank every time you get a certian amount of stones, 50 or 20

Dyride

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

consider the following....
If you are in a group of 20 people, you could easily start your run with 1000 stones so you have the 3x multiplier. Very little chance of dying.

Now your zerg comes across the group of 4 people who all have about 500 stones a person.

(4 players x 500 stones) x 80% = 1600 stones.

1600 / 20 person zerg = 80 stones per person

80 x 3X multiplier = 240 stones

That is totally wrong. The multiplier only counts for stones dropped from mobs and not those looted from other players.

I ran into zero lag problems in the Group versus Group battles.

For anyone that is having FPS and delay issues I would strongly suggest removing all the add-ons.

Yes all of them, back up then clean the whole folder. It made a huge difference for me.

Mojmir

the one good thing about the zerg, we ran one this morning and it got people in the group adapted to how IC is, lets face it its a maze and confusing in some areas, we also got the skyshards, sorted out the bosses, didnt really run into to many enemy players. i personally dont like zergs but for a new dungeon i think it helped our guild mates out and encouraged some team building and confidence that IC might actually have something to offer them.