IC issues and comments

newtinmpls

Crown wrote: »

I would LOVE to have some of you come PvP with us one evening. Live through what we do, feel our pain, etc. If you don't want people knowing who you are, then just let me know and I'll note that you're a recruit who is trialling with us so people don't bug you.

I truly believe that you need to play the game the way we do in order to understand what we see as issues and challenges.

This is why I don't watch ESO live (or whatever it's called) any more. It was clear from the start that no one had a clue how the game was experienced.

Crown

I'd also like to point out that the new *completely random* drops for the prophecy/agility/etc sets are REALLY dumb.

A resto staff in the agility set with the training trait - NOBODY is going to use this.

The game has turned into a PvE grind in order to get the gear that players need to play PvP in anything close to a min/maxed build. We used to be able to craft gear, or use AP for boxes to pick up what we want. Now there's about 250 hours of PvE grinding needed to get close to what we want in order to play the game how we want to play it.

Many people have said it - both politely and less so, and while I don't like insulting people publicly, I do feel the need to state my opinion that whoever made the final decisions on this patch are either grossly incompetent, or do not and have never played this game regularly in PvP. We've offered thoughts, opinions, and even detailed excel sheets with the math behind such. I have to wonder how much the people running the show actually care. @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom make wonderful efforts to communicate with us, but it seems that what they bring back to the decision makers simply gets thrown in the trash.

I am very disappointed, and I believe that my time left in this game is limited.

newtinmpls

Crown wrote: »

Many people have said it - both politely and less so, and while I don't like insulting people publicly, I do feel the need to state my opinion that whoever made the final decisions on this patch are either grossly incompetent, or do not and have never played this game regularly in PvP.

It's not just PvP. The whole reason why I had to stop watching the ESO live broadcasts is that as well-meaning as the presenters are, they clearly don't actually play the game. There is this huge disconnect.

Watching it ... not the same.
Talking about it .... not the same.
Damage control ... not the same.

That being said, this update looks like it does address one of the longstanding issues - that "skilled" players can basically walk all over any number of other players. While it's "kewel" two watch videos of players like Sypher who can play for 45 min as a single or with one partner and basically go on a kill-fest for that whole time - what that means is that there is a huge and unrealistic gap in play between the dedicated/grinders and the player who say has a life, job or can't/doesn't grind 4-10 hours average on a day.

Now that gap appears to have been reduced. Not gone, but reduced. I think that will make the game much more enjoyable for the vast number of players. Which is what it needs to survive.

Crown

@newtinmpls I agree with you that something needed to be done to close the gap, though the changes to battle spirit have reduced the game to a variant of "the biggest zerg wins" and is a band-aid (with no polysporin) covering a festering wound - not a solution.

I am by no means the best player out there, though I do consider myself one of the better strategists and shot callers. I should be able to 1v2 or 1v3 players who are much less skilled than I am, and I should be killed easily enough by @Sypher or @Araxleon (as he was months ago - I've not fought him in a long time) and others who are among the better duelists.

Right now (and on PTS last week in full v16 gear), a 1v2 fight where one of them is a healer will usually last until I run out of resources, at which point I'll escape. Skill has been mostly removed from the equation - and that's the biggest issue I have with the game.

EDIT: For the record, the last time I fought Sypher about 6-7 weeks ago, there was a moment about 30 seconds into the fight when I thought I had a chance. He came back from being at 10% health and killed me. I could blame that on my being over confident and letting my guard down, though the truth is simply that he is a better duelist and I would be happy to win 1 in 5 fights with him. Every time I've tried, I've learned something and adjusted my play - making me a better player.

newtinmpls

Crown wrote: »

the changes to battle spirit have reduced the game to a variant of "the biggest zerg wins" and is a band-aid (with no polysporin) covering a festering wound.

Oh my god I work in health care.

That analogy just made my morning!

Merlin13KAGL

Crown wrote: »

First I'll start with the obligatory unnecessary "HEY! PAY ATTENTION TO ME" @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_GinaBruno (with a shout out to Matt and Lloyd of the escalation support team).

Fixed it for you. You're doing the equivalent of putting the same antenna ball on every car in the parking lot and expecting it to help someone find their vehicle.

Blasting their @ name doesn't somehow move your thread to the top of their "to read" list.

Crown wrote: »

One of the things that most of us would REALLY appreciate from ZOS is an indication on where you're going and what you're intending with PvP. I've participated in many of the guild meetings with Jessica and others, and while you do listen to what we have to say, we've never really gotten a definitive idea of what you intend

Brian Wheeler made a huge post on where PvP was heading - it's in the PvP category. Perhaps you should go check it out.

Crown wrote: »

@Ezareth The zerg challenge is getting to be irritating. I run with a group of 4, and get rolled by 40+ DC. Come back with 12, and get rolled by the same 40. Try 24, and we hold off long enough for a stalemate - a few deaths on each side, and for fun 10 of us start /dancedrunk in the middle of the healing springs while we have 3 people spam efficient purge and another 10 spam healing springs. I don't have words for how stupid that feels. On top of that, 20 whispers in a span of 10 minutes from people complaining that we're zerging.

I want to see 40 try to jam in the S-curves between areas and be able to effectively see anything going on.

4-12 man groups that can effectively play well together and synergize with each other are being far more effective in the close quarters of IC than 24 man + groups. It's not like it is in open air Cyrodiil.

Zerg doesn't equal safety, nor "I win." It's a spotlight for all the groups out there and all the mobs, especially the roaming world bosses and picket signs reading "Come pick us off, one by one."

Crown

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Brian Wheeler made a huge post on where PvP was heading - it's in the PvP category. Perhaps you should go check it out.

I did. I responded in the thread a few times. I also responded to specific points in two guild meetings with them a few weeks prior to patch. The information that Brian presented did not do justice to the state of the game right now.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I want to see 40 try to jam in the S-curves between areas and be able to effectively see anything going on.

That's what the stealth scouts are for.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

4-12 man groups that can effectively play well together and synergize with each other are being far more effective in the close quarters of IC than 24 man + groups. It's not like it is in open air Cyrodiil.

Small (5-10 person) groups get more loot from the mobs, so that's what most organized people are running in the sewers now. Head up to the districts, and it's not hard to find groups of 20+. Last night we had a few fights near the centre of the sewers (Molag Bal fight) where there were 30+ of other factions, and a group of 40+ made their way close to the AD entrance where it took a zerg to defeat their zerg. It was close to 5 minutes of continuous AoE that I watched from the side, venturing in and out with my 5 when we felt it best to do so.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Zerg doesn't equal safety, nor "I win." It's a spotlight for all the groups out there and all the mobs, especially the roaming world bosses and picket signs reading "Come pick us off, one by one."

When executed properly, zerg = safety. For about 45 minutes yesterday we formed a group of 24 to go get the achievement for killing the 12 district bosses. 6 healers spamming springs and 2 templars spamming BoL with everyone stacked - and nothing could kill us. It wasn't particularly fun fighting like that, but our goal was to get the colour for everyone who didn't have it yet, and that was the quickest way to do so.

It felt dirty killing the small groups of opposing players coming too close (and I had a nice chat with @Yonkit towards the end after we killed the last boss, started to split up, and half the group got wrecked by an equal sized DC group as we were heading off in our own directions).

Yonkit

Yah I did some big group action in IC one night and felt pretty dirty too... Well less dirty more just bored. A large group doesn't get much enjoyment out of rolling a group of 4 or many rewards for that matter. I think that once folks have gotten some of the IC newness out of their system things will get better and we'll see less groups running large in the IC because it's just too boring. I understood the whole "you're just a blob zerging" complaint that I and others have received in the past, but for what it's worth it's fun out in the open where you're taking keeps and resources and sure you may be killing pugs, but you're killing hundreds of pugs! That's not happening in the IC because everyone can be spread out and enjoy content throughout the whole IC, so those pug numbers (no offense to pugs) aren't condensed into keep defenses and thus are just running untethered and unorganized out in the wild. Without that sort of condensation of players at objectives that the oldworld pvp provides, we're going to find large groups returning up top for battles or just dispersing into smaller groups in the IC.

I'm not going to prognosticate for the overall future of IC and cyrodil interactions, but for now I'm having so much fun running through IC and causing what little ruckus I can predominantly solo at this point, though I'm hoping I can kidnap grunt and make him my pocket healer soon...

For Merlin... zergs = safety. it's just how it is. I no longer have the dmg output to do what I did in 1.6 and stealth deep into a large group, pop bats and Steel tornado down 8 people and then try for the miraculous escape. Maybe when I'm fully geared I can, but that's a ways off, plus I don't have the defensive skills to escape from the belly of the beast either. Then there's the suggestion that a big group is a big group waiting to be picked off one by one... I guess I haven't run into any garbage groups that actually let this happen. When I was in my big group there were folks that tried to gank me when I straggled, but each time I got back into the fold of healing springs and barriers just fine. Since we can't 1-shot (;p actually I can and have) people anymore it's gonna be a lot harder to just pull strays and make an exit. Plus there is now the risk reward thing that's going on. Will I risk my 1-2k stones to fight what's probably going to be a super tough battle against much larger numbers on the off chance that this group of 24 doesn't have a single competent healer? Eh, I'm sure I'll get to the point where I'm all for that suicide bs, but for now I need meh stones. It's lunch money to buy nice shiny's.

Kerioko

Starshadw wrote: »

I was in three of the five campaigns last night and I can tell you there were zergs of all three colors in every single one. I wish I could tell you if anything's changed, but I've been defeated by 5+ minute or worse, unending, loading screens today, and am now only 28% of the way through a repair that I started over three hours ago.

I would expect the zerging to continue - because most people don't want to risk losing their TV stones, and being in a big zerg is the best insurance against death.

This^....They put PVE in a PVP zone and PVE player hate to lose our stuff that we spend hours gathering. Combine that with the fact that most PVE players will not be geared properly for effective PVP, and they are all scared of being ganked at every turn, zerging is the only safe way to move.

I had a 12 man group in the sewers doing the central event last night. A group of 8 EP showed up and we had a good fight while the main boss was wiping out both parties, but we finally came out with a victory. Got the final boss spawn down to 25% while fending off random gankers when a group of 40+ AD rolled through spamming tornado and springs!

I had a lot of people in my guild really interested in getting started in PVP, but the group ending up disbanding after that and everyone stated they will never enter IC again unless we have a 50 man zerg so we don't have to worry about other faction zergs.

The zerg in IC is a double edged sword form a PVE perspective....You are willing to run in one because you have read all the forums about zerg fests and ganker, and you don't want to lose your ***. At the same time, the moment you die to a zerg, its time to come to the forums to complain about others zerging.

The only band aid fix I can see is a group limit for IC, or a mechanic that sets the percentage of stones lost and AP gained based on the amount of people that attack you. 20 v 2, you lose no stones, they gain none...4 vs 4, loser has 80% of his stones lost!

newtinmpls

Kerioko wrote: »

The only band aid fix I can see is a group limit for IC, or a mechanic that sets the percentage of stones lost and AP gained based on the amount of people that attack you. 20 v 2, you lose no stones, they gain none...4 vs 4, loser has 80% of his stones lost!

Wow - that adjustment of loot/difficulty is simlar to how experience "greys out" in the initial zones.

That should be a possible fix.

Clever idea!

Gol Barr

Crown wrote: »

I would LOVE to have some of you come PvP with us one evening. Live through what we do, feel our pain, etc. If you don't want people knowing who you are, then just let me know and I'll note that you're a recruit who is trialling with us so people don't bug you.

this...........................................................................................

Ishammael

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Brian Wheeler made a huge post on where PvP was heading - it's in the PvP category. Perhaps you should go check it out.

Are you talking about the stickied post from June?

Minno

Ezareth wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@Ezareth The zerg challenge is getting to be irritating. I run with a group of 4, and get rolled by 40+ DC. Come back with 12, and get rolled by the same 40. Try 24, and we hold off long enough for a stalemate - a few deaths on each side, and for fun 10 of us start /dancedrunk in the middle of the healing springs while we have 3 people spam efficient purge and another 10 spam healing springs. I don't have words for how stupid that feels. On top of that, 20 whispers in a span of 10 minutes from people complaining that we're zerging.

The only solution I see to that is there are 5 campaigns and the Districts and Sewers are a pretty big place. I hope I don't regularly see a 40 man zerg anywhere I'm PVPing otherwise I'll start campaign shopping.

Beyond that the only thing you can do is stay alert, keep your eyes on an exit route on both sides and always keep caltrops slotted to slow your pursuers.

I've been noticing more rewards in areas where less players are in. More dark ether drops etc.
Maybe it's a rewards incentive they aimed for to move zergs?

I haven't grouped with more than 2 others since 2.1 so far but I've probabably made 90 or so purple "trophy" items, and around 14,000 stones n about 4 hours of playing almost exclusively in the sewers. I've to this point stayed out of the Districts to avoid having to fight players who have just died and the zergs running around up there.

Most of the players I've come across from other factions have been carrying around 400-500 stones each from what I can calculate. I've had a couple guys with over 1000 and a ton of next to zerg.

When I played on PTS I played almost exclusively in the districts and notice a bit less purple item drops so there may be some truth to what you say.

Could also be its a reward to make up for the dangers of the sewers linear layout.

Minno

Yonkit wrote: »

Yah I did some big group action in IC one night and felt pretty dirty too... Well less dirty more just bored. A large group doesn't get much enjoyment out of rolling a group of 4 or many rewards for that matter. I think that once folks have gotten some of the IC newness out of their system things will get better and we'll see less groups running large in the IC because it's just too boring. I understood the whole "you're just a blob zerging" complaint that I and others have received in the past, but for what it's worth it's fun out in the open where you're taking keeps and resources and sure you may be killing pugs, but you're killing hundreds of pugs! That's not happening in the IC because everyone can be spread out and enjoy content throughout the whole IC, so those pug numbers (no offense to pugs) aren't condensed into keep defenses and thus are just running untethered and unorganized out in the wild. Without that sort of condensation of players at objectives that the oldworld pvp provides, we're going to find large groups returning up top for battles or just dispersing into smaller groups in the IC.

I'm not going to prognosticate for the overall future of IC and cyrodil interactions, but for now I'm having so much fun running through IC and causing what little ruckus I can predominantly solo at this point, though I'm hoping I can kidnap grunt and make him my pocket healer soon...

For Merlin... zergs = safety. it's just how it is. I no longer have the dmg output to do what I did in 1.6 and stealth deep into a large group, pop bats and Steel tornado down 8 people and then try for the miraculous escape. Maybe when I'm fully geared I can, but that's a ways off, plus I don't have the defensive skills to escape from the belly of the beast either. Then there's the suggestion that a big group is a big group waiting to be picked off one by one... I guess I haven't run into any garbage groups that actually let this happen. When I was in my big group there were folks that tried to gank me when I straggled, but each time I got back into the fold of healing springs and barriers just fine. Since we can't 1-shot (;p actually I can and have) people anymore it's gonna be a lot harder to just pull strays and make an exit. Plus there is now the risk reward thing that's going on. Will I risk my 1-2k stones to fight what's probably going to be a super tough battle against much larger numbers on the off chance that this group of 24 doesn't have a single competent healer? Eh, I'm sure I'll get to the point where I'm all for that suicide bs, but for now I need meh stones. It's lunch money to buy nice shiny's.

Pocket healer for hire right here.