suggested block / heavy armor / tank changes

Wing

I have b**ched my fair b**ch in other threads, and while im sure I will continue to do so I did want to actually post some constructive ideas, but first im going to shoot down some go to skape goat solutions before posting mine.

-"nerf block casting" the idea that people can do damage while blocking. I disagree here because to block or be tanky and still do damage the person has already given up damage or something within the system to be able to achieve this, it would effectively be like saying if you go full dps we need to nerf your defense even further, that's not fair *** you already did give up defense to do damage, so no.

-"reduce the regen penalty to x% instead of 100%" the whole nerfing stamina idea is stupid in the first place and no compromise that keeps that change is going to be fun, we can fix this without such inept changes.


my idea


first I would like to shift some power. as of now heavy armor cannot stand alone as your sole form of mitigation (as seen in several boss fights in the game, were even at 50% mitigation a tank can still be 1-shot) I would like heavy armor to be able to get by at tanking on its own. I have said this in other posts and I will say it again, remove the block cost reduction passive and add flat damage reduction like the nord passive at something like max 15-20% this means while wearing at least 5 pieces of heavy armor you would shave that much damage off as well as whatever amount your total armor mitigates.

now as personofsecrets has noted flat DR does not stack well with blocking, and im okay with that, as I think heavy armor and sword and board should be able to stand on there own and not require each other for tanking, but provide bonuses if you do use them both at various other costs (usually damage)

next would be to drop the amount of damage blocking blocks a little bit, maybe down to 30-40%, maybe less if required. this reinforces the idea of using block to mitigate the secondary effects of abilities instead of mitigating so much damage. sword and board still increases this a bit and can even be buffed if required to grant more actual block mitigation.

overall changes?

-heavy armor tanking without blocking becomes viable and heavy armor gets a much needed buff no matter what style of weapon you are using.
-standard blocking reinforced as a secondary effect mitigation tactic rather then a huge damage mitigated one.
-sword and board reinforced as a damage mitigation set at the cost of damage.
-because oh how flat damage reduction and block don't stack well heavy armor sword and board tanking remains good but not overpowered.
-stamina not gutted

this is the kind of core balance changes I would like to see, and this opens up more forms of tanking (heavy armor dual wield, medium armor sword and board, etc) without broad stroke knee jerk reaction changes. . .like gutting stamina regen for example.

Draehl

Agreed on the %mitigation passive. Even for PvP purposes this could make heavy armor a more attractive option to take that isn't hit by penetration...

aco5712

see that problem makes it worse lol. It allows the perma block mechanism to stay and you have given them 20% mitagation on top of that for no reason..... killing in 5 heavy is not a problem for the people who are actually running the perma block set up. Its not hard to gear for damage while wearing 5 heavy. CP has made this viable because of the things you can do with it. A damage debuff while blocking is the only way to stop perma block set ups.

Wing

aco5712 wrote: »

see that problem makes it worse lol. It allows the perma block mechanism to stay and you have given them 20% mitagation on top of that for no reason..... killing in 5 heavy is not a problem for the people who are actually running the perma block set up. Its not hard to gear for damage while wearing 5 heavy. CP has made this viable because of the things you can do with it. A damage debuff while blocking is the only way to stop perma block set ups.

not quite.

we removed the block cost reduction from heavy, and that reduces the ability to hold block by increasing its cost, obviously.

next, while yes we do give heavy 20% mitigation we removed that from blocking in the first place, add to that that various sources stack worse then it all coming from once source you will find that a block of 30% and heavy armor 20% is actually worse then a block of 50% because of the way things are calculated in this game. so overall we have made blocking both more expensive and reduced its effectiveness.

and finally, if you have built yourself with the ability to "perma block" you already gave up damage to achieve this through the choices built into the system (you don't get something for nothing) no further penalties are required "just because".

Forestd16b14_ESO

Agreed to heavy armor buffs cause standing now it is lacking alot and is just gonna go to the end of the hill now since light armor now has 100% armor boost.

And block casting just needs to go period end of story it is a very broken and abused mechanic and it's either block casting goes or keep 0 stamina regen while blocking cause perma blocks have to go as of last year and those are the 2 options to deal with perma blockers.

aco5712

Wing wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

see that problem makes it worse lol. It allows the perma block mechanism to stay and you have given them 20% mitagation on top of that for no reason..... killing in 5 heavy is not a problem for the people who are actually running the perma block set up. Its not hard to gear for damage while wearing 5 heavy. CP has made this viable because of the things you can do with it. A damage debuff while blocking is the only way to stop perma block set ups.

not quite.

we removed the block cost reduction from heavy, and that reduces the ability to hold block by increasing its cost, obviously.

next, while yes we do give heavy 20% mitigation we removed that from blocking in the first place, add to that that various sources stack worse then it all coming from once source you will find that a block of 30% and heavy armor 20% is actually worse then a block of 50% because of the way things are calculated in this game. so overall we have made blocking both more expensive and reduced its effectiveness.

and finally, if you have built yourself with the ability to "perma block" you already gave up damage to achieve this through the choices built into the system (you don't get something for nothing) no further penalties are required "just because".

not hard to put your warrior points into block cost reduction to get it back. doesnt cost you damage at all.

i dont remember reading that block mitgation reduction first time through so okay.

you dont need to build around perma block. Having decent recovery/dwemer/pots/being a DK (main block casting class) isnt building for blocking, its building for pvp and perma blocking becomes a side effect of that. And if they dont have stamina to block, they dont need to with an extra 20% mitgation on them constantly.

In your case you do get something for nothing because your not really sacrificing that much damage for alot of resistance especially when the damage thats already being done is so low (update 2.1). Hence why the stam regen nerf works, because your sacrifice so much for 50% less damage and its something that should only be done at the right time (ie. crystal frag, dragon leap, block CC, etc.).

I was like you and super opposed to the blocking nerf. But once you learn to play without perma block and realise that 50% less damage (cyro debuff) ontop of a person who is perma blocking (50% less damage or 40 or whatever it is in your case), your doing very little damage while they can do decent damage to you.

Personofsecrets

What I am wondering is the following.

What are the permablock builds that are getting good damage?

How much damage is that compared to DPS builds?

I can pull 10k plus on my VDSA tank, but it is only by stacking multiple dots on many adds. I only get 6k single target and, keep in mind, that is against NPC mobs and not human players that would be more adepts at taking even less damage from me.

Rune_Relic

Is it really that difficult to balance ?

Self balancing - Auto Balancing - Arguments over.

75% of damage potential = 25% Mitigation potential [DPS] vs 25% of damage potential = 75% Mitigation potential [Tank]
25% Tank damage vs 25% damage mitigation [stalemate]
75% DPS damage vs 75% damage mitigation [stalemate]
You attack at the wrong time or miss a block... you are going to die unless you can squeeze in a counter measure

Now throw in the mix.
50% damage = 50% mitigation vs 75% damage = 25% mitigation
75% vs 50% mitigation [+25% net damage]
50% vs 25% mitigation [+25% net damage]
You attack at the wrong time or miss a block... you are going to die unless you can squeeze in a counter measure

Lets throw in another obscure couple and see what happens here....
80% damage = 20% mitigation vs 30% damage = 70% mitigation
80% vs 70% mitigation [+10% net damage]
30% vs 20% mitigation [+10% net damage]
You attack at the wrong time or miss a block... you are going to die unless you can squeeze in a counter measure

Notice how ALL builds are viable and balanced.
1vX doesn't matter as they are all a sequence of 1v1 events.
Who lives and who dies is determined by skill, judgement timing and concentration.
The builds are nothing more than unique flavours [play as you want].

......

What we get with with magicka builds is damage shields + damage
100% mitigation = 100% damage [DPS-Tank]
There is no balance when you allow builds like this to exist when most tanks are...
50% mitigation = 50% damage at best [Stamina Tank] (50% mitigation = 25% damage being more realistic)

This is as every keeps reminding me a resource based game where resources management keep everything in check rather than use cooldowns.
So what happens when you regen more resources than anything costs ?

ie resource on skill/weapon damage + ground based aoe multi damage procs + disease & poisoned large radius pbaoe dots with bleed chance + OP stamina drinks.
Armour is irrelevant compared to shields and blocking.
Shields and blocking only cost resources.
Resources are cheap for the right builds.

Paulhewhewria

Heavy Armor definitely needs something its coming up short compared to the other armors.