Necro - Elder Dragon - DK health recovery passive.

Armitas

This thread was necromanced and I need to think about it in a current context to see if I still agree with it.

Elder Dragon - Increase health recovery by 5% for each draconic ability slotted.

Health recovery is only useful when there is no one healing you and you can not sustain the healing cost yourself. That is essentially what health recovery is, a free minor hot to keep you up when no one else is around to, and you can't afford it yourself. If you are tanking for your group you are relying on inc healing and blocking spike damage, not health recovery. If you are in PvP a single disease attack will reduce your health recovery to 50% making any crazy build you made worthless. There is no situation other than soloing a dungeon in which this stat is notably valuable.

I would like to see this passive changed to +X% weapon base damage while equipping a sword and board. What I mean here is the listed damage on the weapon, not weapon/spell power in your character page. However the increased base weapon damage would result in an increase to the weapon and spell power on your character sheet.

Here is why. Current changes to stamina and blocking aside, our class is deeply tied to sword and board due to our lack of ranged attacks, lack of a working class gap closer, and our iron skin passive giving us 10% more block mitigation. However last update in 1.6, we took a significant loss in spell damage due to the changes to base spell/weapon damage which now come from weapons... of which s/b is one of the weakest. This would be a nice boost to our lack luster class specific damage in pvp while being congruent with our class archetype. By making the passive increase base weapon damage it also boosts stamina DKs by buffing s/b abilities as well as weapon strike damage which makes it a valuable passive to both stamina and magicka users. The passive makes sense in the Draconic line as it is a tank line with sword and shield in mind. I also think it provides an interesting class niche that enters into both PvE tanking and PvP.

Rinmaethodain

Sword and board is for tanking not for dpsing.

Because of people who try to pretend they are tank while they are dpsing, we got unjustified nerf "0 stamina regen while blocking".

Im perfectly fine with passive being +% health recovery. And its not just "only useful when there is no one healing you ".

"If you are in PvP a single disease attack will reduce your health recovery to 50%" the game doesnt revolve only around PVP.

They are already taking out health regen mundus stone. We dont need any more excuses to lose even more health or health regen.

Armitas

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Sword and board is for tanking not for dpsing.

Because of people who try to pretend they are tank while they are dpsing, we got unjustified nerf "0 stamina regen while blocking".

Im perfectly fine with passive being +% health recovery. And its not just "only useful when there is no one healing you ".

"If you are in PvP a single disease attack will reduce your health recovery to 50%" the game doesnt revolve only around PVP.

They are already taking out health regen mundus stone. We dont need any more excuses to lose even more health or health regen.

I think there is precedence for this. Prior to 1.6 S/B had no direct bearing on your spell power allowing congruent offense and defense. There is also the matter of sorc class shields which also have congruent offense and defense. This is in no way non conformant with the current game build.

This passive alone is not going to turn anyone into a "dpser" it will just mitigate our already lack luster PvP class offense in a way that follows it's class archetype. Honestly how large of difference do you expect that minor change to be? Further, the ablity to dps and block was not a DK specific issue, that capacity was inherient to the game mechanics. It became predominant with DKs due to successive nerfing that resulted in an extreme lack of any alternate possibilities.

In my analysis of health recovery I took both sides, PvP and PvE so I don't understand your objection that "the game doesn't only revolve around PvP". I could also reverse your remark and say, "the game doesn't only revolve around PvE". But I can tell by your signature that this is a big issue for you. It doesn't need to be, I think you are over valuing health recovery far more than is warranted.

What other uses of health recovery make it "notably valuable"? I can't imagine having a healer where the health return I get in the next 2 seconds is going to make or break something. I rather hope to get a heal within those next 2 seconds, not a health recovery tick. Given the changes to block and stamina I doubt I would even have the room to develop a significant recovery build in a PvE application that would be my saving grace in the next 2 seconds. Additionally a tank should be kept at full HP, and a tank with full HP gets 0 value out of health recovery.

Kronosphere

Armitas wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Sword and board is for tanking not for dpsing.

Because of people who try to pretend they are tank while they are dpsing, we got unjustified nerf "0 stamina regen while blocking".

Im perfectly fine with passive being +% health recovery. And its not just "only useful when there is no one healing you ".

"If you are in PvP a single disease attack will reduce your health recovery to 50%" the game doesnt revolve only around PVP.

They are already taking out health regen mundus stone. We dont need any more excuses to lose even more health or health regen.

I think there is precedence for this. Prior to 1.6 S/B had no direct bearing on your spell power allowing congruent offense and defense. There is also the matter of sorc class shields which also have congruent offense and defense. This is in no way non conformant with the current game build.

This passive alone is not going to turn anyone into a "dpser" it will just mitigate our already lack luster PvP class offense in a way that follows it's class archetype. Honestly how large of difference do you expect that minor change to be? Further, the ablity to dps and block was not a DK specific issue, that capacity was inherient to the game mechanics. It became predominant with DKs due to successive nerfing that resulted in an extreme lack of any alternate possibilities.

In my analysis of health recovery I took both sides, PvP and PvE so I don't understand your objection that "the game doesn't only revolve around PvP". I could also reverse your remark and say, "the game doesn't only revolve around PvE". But I can tell by your signature that this is a big issue for you. It doesn't need to be, I think you are over valuing health recovery far more than is warranted.

What other uses of health recovery make it "notably valuable"? I can't imagine having a healer where the health return I get in the next 2 seconds is going to make or break something. I rather hope to get a heal within those next 2 seconds, not a health recovery tick. Given the changes to block and stamina I doubt I would even have the room to develop a significant recovery build in a PvE application that would be my saving grace in the next 2 seconds. Additionally a tank should be kept at full HP, and a tank with full HP gets 0 value out of health recovery.

dont bother man the only thing stronger than the perma block build is his thick skull. nothing gets through. and he for some reason cant grasp the fact health recovery is worthless and horrible.

Rinmaethodain

Kronosphere wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Sword and board is for tanking not for dpsing.

Because of people who try to pretend they are tank while they are dpsing, we got unjustified nerf "0 stamina regen while blocking".

Im perfectly fine with passive being +% health recovery. And its not just "only useful when there is no one healing you ".

"If you are in PvP a single disease attack will reduce your health recovery to 50%" the game doesnt revolve only around PVP.

They are already taking out health regen mundus stone. We dont need any more excuses to lose even more health or health regen.

I think there is precedence for this. Prior to 1.6 S/B had no direct bearing on your spell power allowing congruent offense and defense. There is also the matter of sorc class shields which also have congruent offense and defense. This is in no way non conformant with the current game build.

This passive alone is not going to turn anyone into a "dpser" it will just mitigate our already lack luster PvP class offense in a way that follows it's class archetype. Honestly how large of difference do you expect that minor change to be? Further, the ablity to dps and block was not a DK specific issue, that capacity was inherient to the game mechanics. It became predominant with DKs due to successive nerfing that resulted in an extreme lack of any alternate possibilities.

In my analysis of health recovery I took both sides, PvP and PvE so I don't understand your objection that "the game doesn't only revolve around PvP". I could also reverse your remark and say, "the game doesn't only revolve around PvE". But I can tell by your signature that this is a big issue for you. It doesn't need to be, I think you are over valuing health recovery far more than is warranted.

What other uses of health recovery make it "notably valuable"? I can't imagine having a healer where the health return I get in the next 2 seconds is going to make or break something. I rather hope to get a heal within those next 2 seconds, not a health recovery tick. Given the changes to block and stamina I doubt I would even have the room to develop a significant recovery build in a PvE application that would be my saving grace in the next 2 seconds. Additionally a tank should be kept at full HP, and a tank with full HP gets 0 value out of health recovery.

dont bother man the only thing stronger than the perma block build is his thick skull. nothing gets through. and he for some reason cant grasp the fact health recovery is worthless and horrible.

Sure, some people apparently think everything is worthless and horrible unless some pseudo famous youtuber will post a copy-paste build guide that uses that thing.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Kronosphere wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Sword and board is for tanking not for dpsing.

Because of people who try to pretend they are tank while they are dpsing, we got unjustified nerf "0 stamina regen while blocking".

Im perfectly fine with passive being +% health recovery. And its not just "only useful when there is no one healing you ".

"If you are in PvP a single disease attack will reduce your health recovery to 50%" the game doesnt revolve only around PVP.

They are already taking out health regen mundus stone. We dont need any more excuses to lose even more health or health regen.

I think there is precedence for this. Prior to 1.6 S/B had no direct bearing on your spell power allowing congruent offense and defense. There is also the matter of sorc class shields which also have congruent offense and defense. This is in no way non conformant with the current game build.

This passive alone is not going to turn anyone into a "dpser" it will just mitigate our already lack luster PvP class offense in a way that follows it's class archetype. Honestly how large of difference do you expect that minor change to be? Further, the ablity to dps and block was not a DK specific issue, that capacity was inherient to the game mechanics. It became predominant with DKs due to successive nerfing that resulted in an extreme lack of any alternate possibilities.

In my analysis of health recovery I took both sides, PvP and PvE so I don't understand your objection that "the game doesn't only revolve around PvP". I could also reverse your remark and say, "the game doesn't only revolve around PvE". But I can tell by your signature that this is a big issue for you. It doesn't need to be, I think you are over valuing health recovery far more than is warranted.

What other uses of health recovery make it "notably valuable"? I can't imagine having a healer where the health return I get in the next 2 seconds is going to make or break something. I rather hope to get a heal within those next 2 seconds, not a health recovery tick. Given the changes to block and stamina I doubt I would even have the room to develop a significant recovery build in a PvE application that would be my saving grace in the next 2 seconds. Additionally a tank should be kept at full HP, and a tank with full HP gets 0 value out of health recovery.

dont bother man the only thing stronger than the perma block build is his thick skull. nothing gets through. and he for some reason cant grasp the fact health recovery is worthless and horrible.

I usualy like to play builds that people call bad, just to show them they are wrong. WW sucks... yet with only 2,9K weapon dmg (with the right gear I could easely get 4K) I get around 12K more DpS just by using light attacks and a lot more when weaving it with Howl of Agony... Health regen sucks! Yet again, I can tank higher level Vet Dungeon while barely relying on my healer... I don't know, I must do something wrong... help me!

Armitas

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Kronosphere wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Sword and board is for tanking not for dpsing.

Because of people who try to pretend they are tank while they are dpsing, we got unjustified nerf "0 stamina regen while blocking".

Im perfectly fine with passive being +% health recovery. And its not just "only useful when there is no one healing you ".

"If you are in PvP a single disease attack will reduce your health recovery to 50%" the game doesnt revolve only around PVP.

They are already taking out health regen mundus stone. We dont need any more excuses to lose even more health or health regen.

I think there is precedence for this. Prior to 1.6 S/B had no direct bearing on your spell power allowing congruent offense and defense. There is also the matter of sorc class shields which also have congruent offense and defense. This is in no way non conformant with the current game build.

This passive alone is not going to turn anyone into a "dpser" it will just mitigate our already lack luster PvP class offense in a way that follows it's class archetype. Honestly how large of difference do you expect that minor change to be? Further, the ablity to dps and block was not a DK specific issue, that capacity was inherient to the game mechanics. It became predominant with DKs due to successive nerfing that resulted in an extreme lack of any alternate possibilities.

In my analysis of health recovery I took both sides, PvP and PvE so I don't understand your objection that "the game doesn't only revolve around PvP". I could also reverse your remark and say, "the game doesn't only revolve around PvE". But I can tell by your signature that this is a big issue for you. It doesn't need to be, I think you are over valuing health recovery far more than is warranted.

What other uses of health recovery make it "notably valuable"? I can't imagine having a healer where the health return I get in the next 2 seconds is going to make or break something. I rather hope to get a heal within those next 2 seconds, not a health recovery tick. Given the changes to block and stamina I doubt I would even have the room to develop a significant recovery build in a PvE application that would be my saving grace in the next 2 seconds. Additionally a tank should be kept at full HP, and a tank with full HP gets 0 value out of health recovery.

dont bother man the only thing stronger than the perma block build is his thick skull. nothing gets through. and he for some reason cant grasp the fact health recovery is worthless and horrible.

I usualy like to play builds that people call bad, just to show them they are wrong.... ... Health regen sucks! Yet again, I can tank higher level Vet Dungeon while barely relying on my healer... I don't know, I must do something wrong... help me!

I'm the same way. I'm still PvPing in 5L 2M despite 1.6 and without a block build because I enjoy doing my own thing and making my own set ups.

The question here is not whether Health Recovery sucks or not, if built correctly in PvE it is a strong healing stat in isolation. The question is whether it is notably valuable enough to dedicate our limited passive slots too.

My group doesn't even use tanks for the vet dungeons, just 3 dps and a healer. In my opinion the ability to specifically tank a vet dungeon and rely on the healer less is not of notable valuable for a couple of reasons. A vet dungeon is a trivial dungeon, that does not require tanks at all, and the choice to rely less on the healer is a voluntary one and not a necessary one. We already have a strong tanking heal via dragonblood that is more than capable of supplementing the healer on it's own. On top of that the healer is more than capable of healing the tank without assistance. They would be far better served if they could save resources by having a tank that focused in not taking damage rather than taking the gear steps to reach significant health recovery for a minor hot.

Thats not to say there isn't some specific scenario and situation out there where HR is just great to have, there is. Your case is one, and I can think of one in VDSA, but significant enough to dedicate a full time passive too? That I don't think so.

Armitas

I'd like to add that if anyone has any alternate ideas for a draconic passive feel free to add them.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Armitas wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Kronosphere wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Sword and board is for tanking not for dpsing.

Because of people who try to pretend they are tank while they are dpsing, we got unjustified nerf "0 stamina regen while blocking".

Im perfectly fine with passive being +% health recovery. And its not just "only useful when there is no one healing you ".

"If you are in PvP a single disease attack will reduce your health recovery to 50%" the game doesnt revolve only around PVP.

They are already taking out health regen mundus stone. We dont need any more excuses to lose even more health or health regen.

I think there is precedence for this. Prior to 1.6 S/B had no direct bearing on your spell power allowing congruent offense and defense. There is also the matter of sorc class shields which also have congruent offense and defense. This is in no way non conformant with the current game build.

This passive alone is not going to turn anyone into a "dpser" it will just mitigate our already lack luster PvP class offense in a way that follows it's class archetype. Honestly how large of difference do you expect that minor change to be? Further, the ablity to dps and block was not a DK specific issue, that capacity was inherient to the game mechanics. It became predominant with DKs due to successive nerfing that resulted in an extreme lack of any alternate possibilities.

In my analysis of health recovery I took both sides, PvP and PvE so I don't understand your objection that "the game doesn't only revolve around PvP". I could also reverse your remark and say, "the game doesn't only revolve around PvE". But I can tell by your signature that this is a big issue for you. It doesn't need to be, I think you are over valuing health recovery far more than is warranted.

What other uses of health recovery make it "notably valuable"? I can't imagine having a healer where the health return I get in the next 2 seconds is going to make or break something. I rather hope to get a heal within those next 2 seconds, not a health recovery tick. Given the changes to block and stamina I doubt I would even have the room to develop a significant recovery build in a PvE application that would be my saving grace in the next 2 seconds. Additionally a tank should be kept at full HP, and a tank with full HP gets 0 value out of health recovery.

dont bother man the only thing stronger than the perma block build is his thick skull. nothing gets through. and he for some reason cant grasp the fact health recovery is worthless and horrible.

I usualy like to play builds that people call bad, just to show them they are wrong.... ... Health regen sucks! Yet again, I can tank higher level Vet Dungeon while barely relying on my healer... I don't know, I must do something wrong... help me!

I'm the same way. I'm still PvPing in 5L 2M despite 1.6 and without a block build because I enjoy doing my own thing and making my own set ups.

The question here is not whether Health Recovery sucks or not, if built correctly in PvE it is a strong healing stat in isolation. The question is whether it is notably valuable enough to dedicate our limited passive slots too.

My group doesn't even use tanks for the vet dungeons, just 3 dps and a healer. In my opinion the ability to specifically tank a vet dungeon and rely on the healer less is not of notable valuable for a couple of reasons. A vet dungeon is a trivial dungeon, that does not require tanks at all, and the choice to rely less on the healer is a voluntary one and not a necessary one. We already have a strong tanking heal via dragonblood that is more than capable of supplementing the healer on it's own. On top of that the healer is more than capable of healing the tank without assistance. They would be far better served if they could save resources by having a tank that focused in not taking damage rather than taking the gear steps to reach significant health recovery for a minor hot.

Thats not to say there isn't some specific scenario and situation out there where HR is just great to have, there is. Your case is one, and I can think of one in VDSA, but significant enough to dedicate a full time passive too? That I don't think so.

Fair enough.

Edit : I would just like to add, that you should not dedicate everything into health regen like you said. The combat regeneration defines the specialisation, but as any tank you do requiere the correct level of mitigation and health threshold to avoid fatal damage.

I think the problem with the health regen tank probably comes from the popular idea people have that you are giving up other things that might be more usefull as a tank. I have seen people get over 4,5K health regen, but at the cost of set slots, green drinks and giving up mitigation while it is totaly possible to have the same defensive stats as the popular Histbark/Footman while keeping over 3K health regen.

Between a guy who gets 18% dodge chance and 12% block mitigation and another who just recovers the extra damage he doesn't block there shouldn't be a huge difference in play style, since both build serve the same role. One might be slightly superior to the other in some ways, but the other might give situational benefits that the first build wouldn't get.

Ishammael

Armitas wrote: »

I'd like to add that if anyone has any alternate ideas for a draconic passive feel free to add them.

It should give ult when hit, like the bloodspawn set.

Eas007

Armitas wrote: »

Elder Dragon - Increase health recovery by 5% for each draconic ability slotted.

Health recovery is only useful when there is no one healing you and you can not sustain the healing cost yourself. That is essentially what health recovery is, a free minor hot to keep you up when no one else is around to, and you can't afford it yourself. If you are tanking for your group you are relying on inc healing and blocking spike damage, not health recovery. If you are in PvP a single disease attack will reduce your health recovery to 50% making any crazy build you made worthless. There is no situation other than soloing a dungeon in which this stat is notably valuable.

I would like to see this passive changed to +X% weapon base damage while equipping a sword and board. What I mean here is the listed damage on the weapon, not weapon/spell power in your character page. However the increased base weapon damage would result in an increase to the weapon and spell power on your character sheet.

Here is why. Current changes to stamina and blocking aside, our class is deeply tied to sword and board due to our lack of ranged attacks, lack of a working class gap closer, and our iron skin passive giving us 10% more block mitigation. However last update in 1.6, we took a significant loss in spell damage due to the changes to base spell/weapon damage which now come from weapons... of which s/b is one of the weakest. This would be a nice boost to our lack luster class specific damage in pvp while being congruent with our class archetype. By making the passive increase base weapon damage it also boosts stamina DKs by buffing s/b abilities as well as weapon strike damage which makes it a valuable passive to both stamina and magicka users. The passive makes sense in the Draconic line as it is a tank line with sword and shield in mind. I also think it provides an interesting class niche that enters into both PvE tanking and PvP.

Health recovery is not affected by Defile. Furthermore it isn't cut in half in Cyro.

Armitas

Eas007 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Elder Dragon - Increase health recovery by 5% for each draconic ability slotted.

Health recovery is only useful when there is no one healing you and you can not sustain the healing cost yourself. That is essentially what health recovery is, a free minor hot to keep you up when no one else is around to, and you can't afford it yourself. If you are tanking for your group you are relying on inc healing and blocking spike damage, not health recovery. If you are in PvP a single disease attack will reduce your health recovery to 50% making any crazy build you made worthless. There is no situation other than soloing a dungeon in which this stat is notably valuable.

I would like to see this passive changed to +X% weapon base damage while equipping a sword and board. What I mean here is the listed damage on the weapon, not weapon/spell power in your character page. However the increased base weapon damage would result in an increase to the weapon and spell power on your character sheet.

Here is why. Current changes to stamina and blocking aside, our class is deeply tied to sword and board due to our lack of ranged attacks, lack of a working class gap closer, and our iron skin passive giving us 10% more block mitigation. However last update in 1.6, we took a significant loss in spell damage due to the changes to base spell/weapon damage which now come from weapons... of which s/b is one of the weakest. This would be a nice boost to our lack luster class specific damage in pvp while being congruent with our class archetype. By making the passive increase base weapon damage it also boosts stamina DKs by buffing s/b abilities as well as weapon strike damage which makes it a valuable passive to both stamina and magicka users. The passive makes sense in the Draconic line as it is a tank line with sword and shield in mind. I also think it provides an interesting class niche that enters into both PvE tanking and PvP.

Health recovery is not affected by Defile. Furthermore it isn't cut in half in Cyro.

At the time this necro'd thread was written it did. I haven't read every patch note yet, when did it change?

Toc de Malsvi

There should not be weapon specific bonus' tied to class passives. DK's are not tied to SB, there are many many who run 2H+B or even DW+B, or RS+DS or RS+DW.

That said I agree that the recovery passive is pretty much useless, you need to stack health recovery in the first place for 5% to have any meaningful value, and stacking health recovery is generally not going to help you very much in this game.

Why do the Draconic Power tree passives have to be all defensive? Are dragons only defensive? Is their power only in defense?

Why not 1% Weapon and Spell power for each Draconic Power ability slotted? Or activating a draconic power ability grants minor Sorcery? Or while a draconic power ability is active do 5% more damage from AOE abilities?

Armitas

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Why not 1% Weapon and Spell power for each Draconic Power ability slotted? Or activating a draconic power ability grants minor Sorcery? Or while a draconic power ability is active do 5% more damage from AOE abilities?

Yeah as I read back through this old thread I am really not loving what I wrote here. I like your suggestions better. It could also have plus stamina recovery. All the draconic are magicka sourced so it shouldn't buff sDK if you exclude the ultimate.