More Transparent Guild Trader Bidding

cybermeez

Right now there is no transparency into the process of bidding on a guild trader. My guild feels this is causing us to unnecessarily over bid. In one cas we bid 85k and the trader went for exactly 85k. In another instance, we bid 200k and the trader went for exactly 200k. This smells fishy and we don't believe it is a fair process. It should be transparent like bidding in eBay, and even if our max bid is 200k we shouldn't be forced to pay the full 200k unless a competitor in the auction is willing to bid 199,999 gold and not a penny more. For example, say my guild bids 200 thousand gold and the next highest bid by a competitor is 50 thousand, we should be able to get the guild for 50,001 gold, not automatically be forced to pay our max bid of 200 thousand. Can you please address this?

BuggeX

Its simply a silent auction. Not a regular

Leandor

Isn't that what auctions should work like? You bid the amount you are willing to pay. If no one bids higher, you get the goods for the amount you bid. Not for <generic world currency>0.01 more than your competitors.

Could be in my head only, though. I'm often said to possess a strange sense of logic.

SteveCampsOut

This is not eBay!

Mighty_oakk

It must be Monday.

cybermeez

The ESO peanut gallery still as unhelpful as ever I see.

katnip

we bid 330k and lost a few weeks back. I actually love the system though, something to work for as a guild. Establish rivalries with others trying to compete for the best spots. Unfortunately I have not been able to login to see if we won this week due to the login issues.

badmojo

So, basically the rich guilds get to save money on high traffic traders, netting them even more money to not spend the next week, dividing the gap even further between the rich and poor guilds.

No thanks.

cybermeez

How can you have rivalry with a guild if you can't see the opposing guild that's bidding? It is also artificially inflating prices putting them out of reach of the smaller guilds (those that value quality membership over quantity). We happened to win our trader this week, but it we're a small guild of 60 and the price totally wiped us out of all cash. How is that fair to the smaller guilds?

KaleidoscopeEyz

I like your idea. It should be more like an eBay silent auction. It does cause unnecessary bidding and spending.

badmojo

cybermeez wrote: »

How can you have rivalry with a guild if you can't see the opposing guild that's bidding? It is also artificially inflating prices putting them out of reach of the smaller guilds (those that value quality membership over quantity). We happened to win our trader this week, but it we're a small guild of 60 and the price totally wiped us out of all cash. How is that fair to the smaller guilds?

Why does it have to be fair to smaller guilds? Why can't a mom 'n pops general store get a spot downtown? Why does Walmart always get those prime locations?

If your guild doesn't make enough sales to cover the cost of the trader, then you probably shouldn't buy the trader.

There can be rivalries between guilds because you will see the guild who wins the auction. Last week one of the trade guilds I'm in didn't win our trader in Craglorn, therefore we were in competition with the guild who did win for the trader this week. It doesn't have to be a bidding war to be a rivalry. I have no doubt that our guild leader put down more money this week than he did last week, specifically because of that other guild trying to gank our trader.

cybermeez

Walmart engages in predatory pricing - something that not only is immoral, but also violates federal law. I wouldn't hold them up as an example of how any economy should work. If you want 500 idiotic 12 year-olds in your guild, have at it. Not every guild or player wants that. When it comes to guild traders there should be a level playing field that enables a variety of different guilds to fairly participate.

Elder Scrolls admins, I continue to await your reply.

katnip

cybermeez wrote: »

How can you have rivalry with a guild if you can't see the opposing guild that's bidding? It is also artificially inflating prices putting them out of reach of the smaller guilds (those that value quality membership over quantity). We happened to win our trader this week, but it we're a small guild of 60 and the price totally wiped us out of all cash. How is that fair to the smaller guilds?

We value quality as well. Going to be cutting around 200 members this week due to just taking up space and not contributing. you know whos bidding when you get outbid. Example, we were outbid 2 weeks in a row by ZEROSIN on different traders and id love nothing more than to knock them out for a week haha. It actually does seem fair IMO. A guild with more members to contribute should get the better spot if they can pay more. Nothing says you guys cant grow (with quality) and become an absolute powerhouse. Though maybe we just have different views and that ok.

badmojo

cybermeez wrote: »

Walmart engages in predatory pricing - something that not only is immoral, but also violates federal law. I wouldn't hold them up as an example of how any economy should work. If you want 500 idiotic 12 year-olds in your guild, have at it. Not every guild or player wants that. When it comes to guild traders there should be a level playing field that enables a variety of different guilds to fairly participate.

Elder Scrolls admins, I continue to await your reply.

The example with Walmart was about how a small businesses should not expect prime real estate.

There are many guild traders available in-game, if you cannot afford one of the cheapest options, perhaps you should increase the size of your guild until you can. That doesn't have to mean inviting 500 12 yr olds into the guild.

Do you really expect the game to just hand you over a guild trader because you have a guild of 50 players? Shouldn't the most active trade guilds who work hard and do millions in sales every week be rewarded with the better locations? I don't understand what you want changed to make it a level playing field.

cybermeez

The issue is not one of location and never was. Not once have I mentioned location. The issue is the process which forces guilds to over pay, something that is more deleterious to the smaller guilds.

badmojo

You don't have to overpay, you pay what the guild can afford if it's a highly sought after trader, or what you think will be the highest bid if the bidding isn't too competitive.

If Guild A bids 50k, Guild B can bid 51k and win.

If the bidding was public, Guild A and Guild B would most likely start a bidding war and drive the price up to the maximum either was willing to spend.

It's a good system because guilds with tons of gold can't just one up everyone else. It's also a good system because small guilds can't just shop around and get an amazing deal, the can bid low on a trader and hope for a good deal, but it's a gamble.

I don't know, I like the silent auction system, open auction seems like it would create a lot of problems.

Sykis

It's like bidding on property, most of the time unless the property is at an open auction, you won't know what the other bids are. You place your bid and once the close date comes you either had the highest bid or you didn't.

NewBlacksmurf

Bidding...for business is actually being done in the right way.

This isn't a EBay bid but rather a bid as in one company seeking retail space vs other companies.
When you seek to lease space, there are other companies who also place bids, but the owner of the property doesn't list each companies bid.

Nothing needs to be changed on the bidding process.

cybermeez

Whether it be eBay, QuickSales, BidStart, AquaBid or any of the dozens of other online auction sites, all of them have the same model because it works, it's fair and doesn't artificially inflate prices. ESO's system is inherently exclusionary and there is no justification for a system that has a deliberate bias toward overpricing and overpaying. This is not a new issue being discussed and ESO should take heed.

Athas24

Back when I bid on a trader. long ago admittedly... the only thing I didn't like was that it took my money no matter what. If I won or lost was irrelevant, my money wasn't returned if I bid 100k and someone else bid 150k. There's no auction in the world that functions that way where the bidders lose out just for bidding. Only the highest bidder loses the money in real auctions. Maybe they've changed this and if so, good. If not... That was something that made me say "forget this nonsense" when the traders initially came out.
If money is returned after losing at the end of the week. I see no issue with the silent auction concept.

AlnilamE

Athas24 wrote: »

Back when I bid on a trader. long ago admittedly... the only thing I didn't like was that it took my money no matter what. If I won or lost was irrelevant, my money wasn't returned if I bid 100k and someone else bid 150k. There's no auction in the world that functions that way where the bidders lose out just for bidding. Only the highest bidder loses the money in real auctions. Maybe they've changed this and if so, good. If not... That was something that made me say "forget this nonsense" when the traders initially came out.
If money is returned after losing at the end of the week. I see no issue with the silent auction concept.

If you lose the bid the money gets put back into your guild bank right away (and it says so in the mail that you get).

I have lost enough bids to know that. :-P

AlnilamE

cybermeez wrote: »

Whether it be eBay, QuickSales, BidStart, AquaBid or any of the dozens of other online auction sites, all of them have the same model because it works, it's fair and doesn't artificially inflate prices. ESO's system is inherently exclusionary and there is no justification for a system that has a deliberate bias toward overpricing and overpaying. This is not a new issue being discussed and ESO should take heed.

However, the other side of the coin would be that you can be outbid at the last minute by someone who puts in just a few more gold than you (as happens on eBay and other open auction sites all the time). So it would advantage people who are in the "right" time zones to be online when the traders are about to switch.

As others pointed out, there are different auction models, and a silent auction (or a closed bidding system like when you buy a house) are as valid as an open auction and they each have advantages and disadvantages.

Revry

There are actually at least two factors that feed into this, the transparency of the bidding process and the settle price for the auction. I can understand the desire to have a hidden process in ESO, because visibility of the current winner and current winning bid encourages some kinds of behaviors that could be considered negative (like sniping and favoring timezones where the bid settle happens during normal waking hours).

But most bidding processes that are sealed bid auctions have adopted second-price settle amounts to avoid the problem of "leaving lots of money on the table". See "Vickrey auction" or "generalized second-price auction" on Wikipedia if anyone is interested in the details. I think moving to second-price settling without changing the overall mechanics would both be a simple change and would actually make the market more effective without allowing the bad behavior to creep in.

Leandor

While it has potential, it will also possibly generate an unwanted side effect by inflating the prices even more. Imagine one of the richer guilds that really wants a specific trader. Currently they will bid high, but limit it to an amount that they feel adequate. With theat system, someone may think "okay, since we get back what we bid too much, let's put in double the normal price."

Yes, I do know that this is an illusion, since a second similar bidder would increase the price by huge leaps, but will everyone realize that? How many will double their traders' contribution in order to have more spending cash? 5'000 or 10'000 gold per account, why not it's not that much. 20'000?

That system gives a false security on overbid prevention, that will essentially just accelerate cost increase.

FelixTheCatt

I'd just like to be able to buy things at times when I don't feel like grinding myself or selling things here and there to maybe make a little extra. Not be rich , hot to rip others off. I've been selling in mmo's for years and never took advantage of others. I don't like the fact you have to be in a guild to do so. I don't like guilds of any size nor the politics and drama they bring. Basically , i'm penalized for it and that is just plain wrong.

Azurulia

cybermeez wrote: »

The ESO peanut gallery still as unhelpful as ever I see.

That or you just sound like a fool with your silly complaints. Don't worry, a lot of people do that around here.

IIIMPIII

There should be guild trader requirements. some guild traders are limited to smaller guilds, some are limited to bigger guilds. problem solved

failkiwib16_ESO

I just hate the fact that everyone in your guild can see what you bid, yet you are forced to bid blind. It opens up for spies to lurk in other guilds, to report bids to the guild they're loyal to....

However, if your guild consists of only 50 members, you better all be powersellers, who fill your 30 trader spots each day, and sell items worth a lot of gold - otherwise you will never be able to compete against trading guilds with 500 active members. Their guilds earn in about 500k to 2-3 million per week, so they can afford to overbid their competitors.

---

If you wish to compete with fortune 500 members trading guilds, this is a short list of how they run their business and what you're up against:

*They kick members who don't donate to guildbank or put items for sale.
*They kick members who don't sell for more than 1k per week through the trader.
*They forbid WTS in guildchat for items that can be sold through trader, unless someone is in pvp zone and need potions or buff food fast.
*They're nice and chatty, get loyalty from their members. Encourage members to participate in lottery, events and getting upranked by donating to their guildbank.
*They stay up till 4am on monday nights/ tuesday mornings to update bid in the last minute.
*They keep record of who donates and how much to guildbank.
*They keep record of which members that sell most.
*They encourage members to inform them in case they go on vacation, so they don't kick them for being inactive for 1-2 weeks.
*They're careful with inviting low levels and low level veterans, as they have limited access to goods. Some can sell pretty good things, such as raw materials and flowers - however, they are mostly inexperienced and don't know what's worth putting up for sale, or understand the importance of even putting things up for sale.
*They know the guildmasters of the other big trading guilds, and they discuss who gets which trader, so they don't overbid eachother. They all have their officers in eachothers guilds, or the guildmasters are in eachothers guilds.


For a 50 members only trading guild to try to compete against that, I wish you all the luck in Tamriel.
Have a nice day ^^

KaleidoscopeEyz

I just hate the fact that everyone in your guild can see what you bid, yet you are forced to bid blind. It opens up for spies to lurk in other guilds, to report bids to the guild they're loyal to....

Wait.....how do I see what my guild bid?

Zebo7

I see many people saying bidding at the last minute at some bizarre hour. While I belong to large trading guilds I am not a bidder or involved in the process. Can you not bid at normal hours? Shouldn't folks know the maximum they are willing to drop on the spot they want, bid it and walk away from it and see how it fleshes out?

Could someone educate me on the bizarre odd hours last minute bid?

failkiwib16_ESO

KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »

Wait.....how do I see what my guild bid?

Go to your guild, find the tab that says HISTORY, there look under the section of BANK, the bids are listed under the cathegory ALL. You may have to scroll a lot to find the bid though.

Zebo7 wrote: »

I see many people saying bidding at the last minute at some bizarre hour. While I belong to large trading guilds I am not a bidder or involved in the process. Can you not bid at normal hours? Shouldn't folks know the maximum they are willing to drop on the spot they want, bid it and walk away from it and see how it fleshes out?

Could someone educate me on the bizarre odd hours last minute bid?

You can bid at any hour, but as I mentioned earlier - every member in your guild can see what you bid, so to avoid spies giving out bidding information, the guildmasters and their officers stay up till the last minute and sometimes seconds of bidding.

For PC users the bidding happens around 4am CET on tuesdays/ late monday night. I don't remember the exact time for it though.