Apprentice Stone

FloppyFrank

Since I do not play on PC/MAC, I cannot play on the PTS. Therefore, I just want to know how much spell power the apprentice stone gives at vr14. Thanks to anyone who knows!

hrothbern

166

OGLezard

Enough to make me want to get spell pen back...........I miss the spell pen aspect of it

ScruffyWhiskers

No kidding. This change alone is really exasperating. It's all the subtle nerfs like this that really start to get under my skin.

FloppyFrank

Is the old apprentice's spell pen really better than 166 spell dmg?

s7732425ub17_ESO

FloppyFrank wrote: »

Is the old apprentice's spell pen really better than 166 spell dmg?

Spell pen is much, much, much better.

Ishammael

Yeah 5k spell pen >>> 166 spell dmg
Probably why it's changed (nerfed).

Ezareth

Also keep in mind that all the formulas change at Vet16 compared to vet14.

At Vet 14 5k spellpen is ~7.5% damage increase unless you're already fully penetrated. 166 spell damage works out to 1-2% damage increase for most people but keep in mind this increases damage to damage shields, and can be impacted by talents and buffs like sorcery etc.

Ishammael

Ezareth wrote: »

Also keep in mind that all the formulas change at Vet16 compared to vet14.

At Vet 14 5k spellpen is ~7.5% damage increase unless you're already fully penetrated. 166 spell damage works out to 1-2% damage increase for most people but keep in mind this increases damage to damage shields, and can be impacted by talents and buffs like sorcery etc.

Ez, please be more specific. Do you mean the actual mathematical relationship changes or that the cost benefit analysis is different because you are higher level?

asneakybanana

Pretty sure mage/ thief/ shadow is going to be better now. Not quite sure why the warrior mundus mundus gives more weapon damage. Also not sure why it's okay for stam builds to have 30k pen but a mag build isn't allowed to have 17k. More and more stam bias which is why unless you want to be a shield spammer pretty much the only viable builds are stam.

FloppyFrank

so for my cp should i just dump them all into spell erosion for spell pen or should i distribute between elf born (crit dmg/healing) and spell erosion (spell pen)?

silky_soft

Just 1 point in erosion mate. Until they fix it don't waste your cp and get full buff from 1 point

Ezareth

Ishammael wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Also keep in mind that all the formulas change at Vet16 compared to vet14.

At Vet 14 5k spellpen is ~7.5% damage increase unless you're already fully penetrated. 166 spell damage works out to 1-2% damage increase for most people but keep in mind this increases damage to damage shields, and can be impacted by talents and buffs like sorcery etc.

Ez, please be more specific. Do you mean the actual mathematical relationship changes or that the cost benefit analysis is different because you are higher level?

The numbers changed based upon your vet level, but the formula is the same. 650 armor is 1% redux at VR 14, but at vr16 its probably closer to 690.(don't have the formulas all in my head)

asneakybanana wrote: »

Pretty sure mage/ thief/ shadow is going to be better now. Not quite sure why the warrior mundus mundus gives more weapon damage. Also not sure why it's okay for stam builds to have 30k pen but a mag build isn't allowed to have 17k. More and more stam bias which is why unless you want to be a shield spammer pretty much the only viable builds are stam.

Keep in mind that stamina is far less defensive now in 2.1. Blocking and dodge rolling are prohibitively expensive yet shield spm is as effective as ever.

When they fix shields...perhaps they'll fix armor pen as well. Without OP Nirn 17k+ SR is nonexistent without heavy armor or massive self buffs. That much pen is all you really need now.

FloppyFrank

silky_soft wrote: »

Just 1 point in erosion mate. Until they fix it don't waste your cp and get full buff from 1 point

What's the bug with it?

silky_soft

I doubt they have internal testers and let the work experience kid do the calcs for cp. Also just 1 point I'm the physical pen from cp will give you full buff. Use extended stats addon. Can see all the values

Xeniph

silky_soft wrote: »

I doubt they have internal testers and let the work experience kid do the calcs for cp. Also just 1 point I'm the physical pen from cp will give you full buff. Use extended stats addon. Can see all the values

While I don't doubt your first statement. I would like to point out that using an external addon for a lot of information with the API limitations this game has is not exactly reliable. I would be surprised if these stat addons were getting all the correct values.

The only true way imo, to get correct values, is through exhaustive testing.

FloppyFrank

Xeniph wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

I doubt they have internal testers and let the work experience kid do the calcs for cp. Also just 1 point I'm the physical pen from cp will give you full buff. Use extended stats addon. Can see all the values

While I don't doubt your first statement. I would like to point out that using an external addon for a lot of information with the API limitations this game has is not exactly reliable. I would be surprised if these stat addons were getting all the correct values.

The only true way imo, to get correct values, is through exhaustive testing.

I would test, but I can't cause I play on console. If anyone could run some tests and report back or link some tests that would be greatly appreciated.

aco5712

i have done testing on the PTS with the new update. Spell erosion and piercing both work. I did my tests on the heavy armoured guards and resources. There is a difference.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zESz73j8M5mi_xlXrSyd1t5JMJm_3vWc6BTzOExf92M/edit?usp=sharing

I was already penetrating 5k~ spell res by using elemental drain and 5k spell res by 5 light armour passive. So the CP didnt show too much of a impact because the resulting spell res left over was pretty low. If you used say 5 heavy + no ele drain, you would get a better result from the spell erosion passive.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UvdCkqJ713H8e0gQdLB1eJjQSJpTC6sQs4JhL3LSgoY/edit?usp=sharing

this is the physical penetration using a sword and board with a sharpened wep.

silky_soft

Xeniph wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

I doubt they have internal testers and let the work experience kid do the calcs for cp. Also just 1 point I'm the physical pen from cp will give you full buff. Use extended stats addon. Can see all the values

While I don't doubt your first statement. I would like to point out that using an external addon for a lot of information with the API limitations this game has is not exactly reliable. I would be surprised if these stat addons were getting all the correct values.

The only true way imo, to get correct values, is through exhaustive testing.

The API is more reliable then the people writing the code. Go for it mate, test away to your hearts content, make spread sheets and waffle on forums.

They don't calculate pen with percentage values, they are lazy and just use a value and subtract that value from your resists.

Just take in that I have resolve passive, 5 medium and 2 heavy on while getting these numbers. Which also effect the final values of the dual wield bug.

Erosion 1cp = 7781 magik pen
Peircing 1cp = 7781 physical pen
1 axe w/sharp = 7918m(+137)/17585p(+9804)
1 mace w/sharp = 7918m(+137)/17585p(+9804)
mace w/sharp + axe w/sharp = 8055m(+137)/31838p(+14253)
- mace+s/axe+s + immovable brute (5120 resist) = 8157m(+102)/43388p(+11550)
- mace+s/axe+s + phase (640 resist)= 8069m(+14)/33160p(+1322)
- mace+s/axe+s + immovable brute + phase = 8171m(+116)/45030p(+13192)
Then add another 5120 from major fracture and you have 50k+ armor pen.

With me doing the work for ZOS feel free to test away to your hearts content mate.

silky_soft

Also if they weren't lazy and wanted to write some decent code bring back block, dodge, shield spam and streak for days. Then let us crit block and shields, further letting armor pen affect block and let magik pen affect shields.

Wait they haven't stopped shield spam, my bad, only made it worse. Until shields possibly become critable soon(tm).

FloppyFrank

Thanks for the answers guys, ill probably still put points into spell erosion due to the findings by aco5712.

Rinmaethodain

So i guess not only the old seprent stone got crippled (they removed combat health regen in order to make space for stamina regen) . They decided that ESO doesnt need combat health regen anymore, so they just plainly removed that mundus buff from game. They didnt like, make it part of other mundus stone, or merge two stones into one, to make space for their new "stamina regen" mundus stone.
They just removed it like that, without giving anything back.