DW = More Spell Dmg?

bsmorrowb14_ESO

I"m looking at building out a magicka nb, and trying to figure out why dw = more spell dmg. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

QuebraRegra

There have been some discussions, which search will reveal.

What I did not find however was a way for a console peasant to confirm that there is any advantage whatsoever from DW enhancing spell damage of abilities.

I tried to look at the tool tip dmg for say FUNNEL HEALTH both with a staff and then with DW, no difference whatsoever. With a magicka NB being terribad gimped on STAM, I can hardly see what the advantage to running a magicka NB is at all.

The dmg is pretty wet noodle, as there's no crit happening on spells. At best some utility from an extended cloak and off-heal with resto.

I'd like to find a good way on the console to prove that DW is providing any advantage for a magicka NB.

Help?

Tankqull

all class attacks have been magica based until 1.6/2.0 and thus effected by spell dmg.
as melee attacks like flame lash or surprise attacks are more risky to deliver they are intended to do more dmg if actually used as only offensive option to ensure this melee weapons like 2h, DW, S&B offer more dmg resoureces than other weapon types enabling you to use range options.

Gyudan

Any weapon will provide an identical amount of spell damage and weapon damage. For exemple, if you're using a bow you will get the same amount of weapon and spell damage from it.
The amount received for both stats will depend on the type of weapon used.

Weapon rankings by damage:
Tier 1: Dual wield
Tier 2: 2-handed
Tier 3: Bow, 1H+Shield, any staff.

I haven't played in a while, so some of it may have changed.

bsmorrowb14_ESO

Maybe it's the Ruffian Passive in DW? Gives 15% bonus dmg vs. opponents that are stunned, slowed, off balance, silenced, etc?

Tankqull

QuebraRegra wrote: »

There have been some discussions, which search will reveal.

What I did not find however was a way for a console peasant to confirm that there is any advantage whatsoever from DW enhancing spell damage of abilities.

I tried to look at the tool tip dmg for say FUNNEL HEALTH both with a staff and then with DW, no difference whatsoever. With a magicka NB being terribad gimped on STAM, I can hardly see what the advantage to running a magicka NB is at all.

The dmg is pretty wet noodle, as there's no crit happening on spells. At best some utility from an extended cloak and off-heal with resto.

I'd like to find a good way on the console to prove that DW is providing any advantage for a magicka NB.

Help?

pick a staff note your spelldmg in your character info - equip 2 onehanded weapons compare the spelldmg stat and be surprised.

bsmorrowb14_ESO

Tankqull wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

There have been some discussions, which search will reveal.

What I did not find however was a way for a console peasant to confirm that there is any advantage whatsoever from DW enhancing spell damage of abilities.

I tried to look at the tool tip dmg for say FUNNEL HEALTH both with a staff and then with DW, no difference whatsoever. With a magicka NB being terribad gimped on STAM, I can hardly see what the advantage to running a magicka NB is at all.

The dmg is pretty wet noodle, as there's no crit happening on spells. At best some utility from an extended cloak and off-heal with resto.

I'd like to find a good way on the console to prove that DW is providing any advantage for a magicka NB.

Help?

pick a staff note your spelldmg in your character info - equip 2 onehanded weapons compare the spelldmg stat and be surprised.

Oh.....wow, yeah big difference. Is this a bug?
DW=1080 spell dmg
Staff=904 spell dmg

Kammakazi

My Spell Damage sits at 1821 (buffed) with a Staff equipped

&

2065 (buffed) with Dual Swords... The difference is HUGE but it's very impractical for me

I want to hit hard, but I have trouble generating ultimate with DW because I'm not used to getting so close to the enemies.

Sykis

Yes not sure if they have ever said why this is but DW for some reason raises spell power higher then 2H. Not sure really. Some classes it is nice if your going for high spell power build but generating ultimate can be harder.

chevalierknight

QuebraRegra wrote: »

There have been some discussions, which search will reveal.

What I did not find however was a way for a console peasant to confirm that there is any advantage whatsoever from DW enhancing spell damage of abilities.

I tried to look at the tool tip dmg for say FUNNEL HEALTH both with a staff and then with DW, no difference whatsoever. With a magicka NB being terribad gimped on STAM, I can hardly see what the advantage to running a magicka NB is at all.

The dmg is pretty wet noodle, as there's no crit happening on spells. At best some utility from an extended cloak and off-heal with resto.

I'd like to find a good way on the console to prove that DW is providing any advantage for a magicka NB.

Help?

Spells crit so you're wrong.

In less you mean stealth damage then you're still wrong as thats 3x damage not a crit

chevalierknight

bsmorrowb14_ESO wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

There have been some discussions, which search will reveal.

What I did not find however was a way for a console peasant to confirm that there is any advantage whatsoever from DW enhancing spell damage of abilities.

I tried to look at the tool tip dmg for say FUNNEL HEALTH both with a staff and then with DW, no difference whatsoever. With a magicka NB being terribad gimped on STAM, I can hardly see what the advantage to running a magicka NB is at all.

The dmg is pretty wet noodle, as there's no crit happening on spells. At best some utility from an extended cloak and off-heal with resto.

I'd like to find a good way on the console to prove that DW is providing any advantage for a magicka NB.

Help?

pick a staff note your spelldmg in your character info - equip 2 onehanded weapons compare the spelldmg stat and be surprised.

Oh.....wow, yeah big difference. Is this a bug?
DW=1080 spell dmg
Staff=904 spell dmg

Nope two weapon so both add to spell power staffs one weapon

DerpyShadowz

bsmorrowb14_ESO wrote: »

I"m looking at building out a magicka nb, and trying to figure out why dw = more spell dmg. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

As previously said Dual Wield gives more spell damage than staff simply because your equipping 2 swords (ZoS has confirmed this will stay as an intended mechanic to allow more diverse builds and not a bug issue), also the last passive increases damage of all skills regardless if its dual wield skill line or not. (This part may be fixed)

Also to note, Its not practical or at least viable to use Dual Wield as a main bar equipped weapon. The Dual Wield is mostly for the 2nd bar that contains your aoe (Sap essence) And also your execute (Impale) These will both benefit from the extra spell damage and dont require a specific weapon to use them so can take full advantage of this. For your main bar, Destro staff always for weaving of skills. (A few may say Resto staff but its a dps loss as far as i have found)

Also, this isnt strictly true for all classes, i speak specifically about Magicka NB here (For PVE side of things), As i know some classes, at least Sorc's in PvP sometimes use Dual Wield as their main bar but that is often for very specific build types that focus on a different playstyle. Again, it adds diversity to builds which is always welcome.

- Derp.

DerpyShadowz

QuebraRegra wrote: »

There have been some discussions, which search will reveal.

What I did not find however was a way for a console peasant to confirm that there is any advantage whatsoever from DW enhancing spell damage of abilities.

I tried to look at the tool tip dmg for say FUNNEL HEALTH both with a staff and then with DW, no difference whatsoever. With a magicka NB being terribad gimped on STAM, I can hardly see what the advantage to running a magicka NB is at all.

The dmg is pretty wet noodle, as there's no crit happening on spells. At best some utility from an extended cloak and off-heal with resto.

I'd like to find a good way on the console to prove that DW is providing any advantage for a magicka NB.

Help?

Are you speaking from a PVE or PVP point of view?

I mean, granted, our dmg in both area's can be less than other class's in situations. But I rather enjoy it very much.

With just tri stat food i have 15k Stamina in PvP, which, combined with the fairly basic stam regen of 700~ And tri-pots. 14k is really enough. (At least in this current live patch) You have to remember your not a stam NB dodge rolling 24-7, that isnt your survival tactic. Heck, i would go as far as saying cloak isnt really a main survival tool either.

You have to be on top of your shields (What little we have) and defensive skills to survive. If you want to deal a high amount of damage as a Magicka NB in pvp, your sets more or less offer very little in terms of defense and you will have low resistances, there is just simply very little way around it depending on how you want to play. And of course, every build type will eventually meet its counters some way along the line.

Damage is actually pretty awesome in alot of situations. (Providing its not a player with a large amount of Nirn pieces, Which thank god is being nerfed, making us even more viable)

Quite often all you have to do is pop a fear, soul harvest (often hits for 13k~) And then concealed weapon (often hits for 10k~) If you catch people at the right moments this is almost always a one-shot.

I have often with Destro/Resto equipped (depending on pvp scrolls) 2600-2700 spell damage in PvP (buffed),
52% Crit, combined with 36k Magicka, skills start to hit pretty hard. I sit at 26k health also. (My values are different in PVE)

From ranged, a simple Crippling grasp with a Funnel Health weave can really output a fair amount of damage in a short time. If you can burst them down slightly from ranged and then pull of the Fear,harvest,concealed combo it proves very viable, And with the new patch coming could very well be even more viable, im also pretty excited to try the new instant cast Prox Det out aswell. I know some people already use Prox Det atm with their builds however it doesnt suit how i like to play.

The reason i play Magicka NB mostly is because ive always enjoyed playing the, idk, the less loved class, that isnt flavour of the month material (that could change soon) or at least is considered an underdog in comparison. It makes things more interesting.

-Derp

Septimus_Magna

Its working as intended because DW is melee so you need to be close to your target to use normal attacks.

The value for weapon and spell damage is 100% of the main hand + 10% off hand weapon damage.

On a v14 char this gets to around 110 extra spell damage before buffing up. With buffing up and including the extra set bonus I get close to 370 extra spell damage on a high spell damage build.

Its well worth the loss of ranged weapon attacks if you can make a build without weapon skills on one bar.

Septimus_Magna

Crazy phone making me post twice

Joy_Division

Two things about the whole "build diversity" and "melee is more dangerous so needs moar damage" arguments.

1) There is not build diversity because anyone who is serious about their character's performance dual wields swords to get the spell damage.

2) These dual wielders are *not* engaging targets up close and are in more danger, rather they are using overload spamming and using their spells from a distance.

Flameheart

Playing a NB healer / magicka DD, I heard of that some time ago, compared dualwield vs. staff, watched my character menu, said "wow" and banned my destruction staff from my Outfitter presets.

As magicka DD, 2 bars dualwield
As a healer, 1 bar resto staff 1 bar dualwield

For single target dps the closest range I come to a boss is 8m for getting the sap essence buff (could replace it by Structured Entropy even), otherwise it's ranged damage (Funnel Health, Crippling Grasp, Impale), if I would want that, but it's a waste of dps if you do not light attack weave.

Easy choice for a magicka NB anyways, my class skills for damage are equal if not better as destruction skills anyways and besides that....it looks pretty cool :-)

Not that easy maybe for other classes, who need a "filler" damage skill on their skill bar.

omfgitsbatman

As a magicka nb, I can answer a few different questions asked directly and indirectly by this thread.
Does Dual Wielding give you more spell damage than wielding a staff?
Yes. Melee weapons have more base weapon damage on them than ranged weapons such as a staff. So... Not only will you get more spell damage from dual wielding, you will get more from equpping a 2 hander as well.
What are the advantages/disadvantages of dual wielding over staves?
Advantages:

• Way higher spell damage. This is not a little matter, I can get almost 500 more spell damage while dual wielding than with a staff.
• Another Set piece- With the ability to equip 2 weapons instead of 1, you have another set piece available to get another bonus.
• A few dual wield passives actually misleadingly improve the damage of your skills such as Twin Blade and Blunt

Disadvantages:

• No magicka regen from heavy attacks
• Forced to melee if you want to weave

Is dual wielding more viable than wielding a staff?
There is absolutely no reason that you should not dual wield on certain bars. It is completely viable to dual wield on both bars in PVE as long as you don't have any magicka regen issues. I personally use a staff on my main bar, and dual wield on my execute and aoe bars. I use a staff on the main bar, because I personally like being ranged dps. The dual wield on the execute and aoe bar provides me with almost no downside since I never weave those anyway. It only means that my aoe will be Sap Essence instead of impulse. There is absolutely no downside from having it on this bar, only positives. If I want magicka regen, I put on siphoning attacks. I don't weave anything on this bar anyway, so I don't need to stand in melee range for Impale and I can stand at the far end of Sap essence range for AoE.
Is this an oversight by ZoS?
Nope. Eric Wroebel (spelling?) Actually addressed this in a recent ESO Live. He believes that it's a good tradeoff to not have magicka regen in exchange for hitting harder.

My opinnion:
It's dumb. A caster should get more damage from wielding a staff than a sword. The way it is now is counter intuitive. It's actually a huge dps increase for almost every magicka class to go melee magicka. This is making ranged dps more and more rare and seemingly silly when you can do a lot more dps as melee for both stamina and magicka builds. If they want melee magicka to be viable, but not necessarily the only option for decent dps, they should make the melee ranged skills that cost magicka hit harder like magicka DK skills. A sword should not increase your spell damage more than a staff. Swords are weapons of force, strength, and finesse. Staves are weapons of focus, concentration, and inert ability. Magicka just seems like it should benefit more from the latter.

DerpyShadowz

Flameheart wrote: »

Playing a NB healer / magicka DD, I heard of that some time ago, compared dualwield vs. staff, watched my character menu, said "wow" and banned my destrcution staff from my Outfitter presets.

As magicka DD, 2 bars dualwield
As a healer, 1 bar resto staff 1 bar dualwield

Easy choice for a magicka NB anyways, my class skills for damage are equal if not better as desctruction skills anyways and besides that....it looks pretty cool :-)

Not that easy maybe for other classes, who need a "filler" damage skill on their skill bar.

May i ask why two Dual Wield bars? And PVE or PVP?

olsborg

the defending point that zos uses when they explain why this is so. Is that dual wield is melee based over staff wich is ranged and so it provides bigger risk to be melee, but as a sorc, my crystal fragment is still as ranged as before regardless of staff or melee weapon, but with a melee weapon my crysta fragment hits harder then if I had a staff....I personally dont understand their reasoning.

QuebraRegra

Tankqull wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

There have been some discussions, which search will reveal.

What I did not find however was a way for a console peasant to confirm that there is any advantage whatsoever from DW enhancing spell damage of abilities.

I tried to look at the tool tip dmg for say FUNNEL HEALTH both with a staff and then with DW, no difference whatsoever. With a magicka NB being terribad gimped on STAM, I can hardly see what the advantage to running a magicka NB is at all.

The dmg is pretty wet noodle, as there's no crit happening on spells. At best some utility from an extended cloak and off-heal with resto.

I'd like to find a good way on the console to prove that DW is providing any advantage for a magicka NB.

Help?

pick a staff note your spelldmg in your character info - equip 2 onehanded weapons compare the spelldmg stat and be surprised.

WTF!?!?! I tried this on the 1.6 XBOX NA console patch, there was NO difference whatsoever between my restostaff, and my two daggers under spell power on my character sheet. What gives? Has this been patched for the console, or does it work differently?

Disappointed.

Is this because I looked at it in Cyrodll? I'll take a pic tonite to document that it is unchanged for staff versus 2 daggers.

chevalierknight

I like it because i dont think of it just as a damage diffrence with dw you get the up close playstile and with staff you get the nice passives sypher has a staff build just as powerfull as dw allso noone has said yet but deanthecat has in older posts and iv tested ruffien passive works with all abiltys tool tips worded wrong

chevalierknight

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

There have been some discussions, which search will reveal.

What I did not find however was a way for a console peasant to confirm that there is any advantage whatsoever from DW enhancing spell damage of abilities.

I tried to look at the tool tip dmg for say FUNNEL HEALTH both with a staff and then with DW, no difference whatsoever. With a magicka NB being terribad gimped on STAM, I can hardly see what the advantage to running a magicka NB is at all.

The dmg is pretty wet noodle, as there's no crit happening on spells. At best some utility from an extended cloak and off-heal with resto.

I'd like to find a good way on the console to prove that DW is providing any advantage for a magicka NB.

Help?

pick a staff note your spelldmg in your character info - equip 2 onehanded weapons compare the spelldmg stat and be surprised.

WTF!?!?! I tried this on the 1.6 XBOX NA console patch, there was NO difference whatsoever between my restostaff, and my two daggers under spell power on my character sheet. What gives? Has this been patched for the console, or does it work differently?

Disappointed.

Is this because I looked at it in Cyrodll? I'll take a pic tonite to document that it is unchanged for staff versus 2 daggers.

It works i play xbox you will not see a diffrence till you spell damage is higher

Flameheart

I Highlander l wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Playing a NB healer / magicka DD, I heard of that some time ago, compared dualwield vs. staff, watched my character menu, said "wow" and banned my destrcution staff from my Outfitter presets.

As magicka DD, 2 bars dualwield
As a healer, 1 bar resto staff 1 bar dualwield

Easy choice for a magicka NB anyways, my class skills for damage are equal if not better as desctruction skills anyways and besides that....it looks pretty cool :-)

Not that easy maybe for other classes, who need a "filler" damage skill on their skill bar.

May i ask why two Dual Wield bars? And PVE or PVP?

PvE of course.

More spelldamage and because I don't need a single destruction staff skill. NB class skills are equal if not better concerning damage output. Why spam Pulsar if Sap Essence is better and gives you a 20% spell damage buff and heals your whole group? Why spam Force Pulse or Destructive Reach if Crippling Grasp and Funnel Health do more damage and are even cheaper ?

Bar 1: Merciless Resolve
Crippling Grasp
Funnel Health (I play as a full healer too, therefore I have that morph and not the other)
Inner Light
Structured Entropy
Ice Comet

Bar 2: Dark Shades
Impale
Refreshing Path (as said full healer too without too much reskilling, not perfect for dps but useful for role switching)
Inner Light
Sap Essence
Soul Harvest

Ultis are interchangable, you might replace Ice Comet by Soul Tether or Veil if needed, but the ultimate gain of Soul Harvest is very nice to say at least.

QuebraRegra

chevalierknight wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

There have been some discussions, which search will reveal.

What I did not find however was a way for a console peasant to confirm that there is any advantage whatsoever from DW enhancing spell damage of abilities.

I tried to look at the tool tip dmg for say FUNNEL HEALTH both with a staff and then with DW, no difference whatsoever. With a magicka NB being terribad gimped on STAM, I can hardly see what the advantage to running a magicka NB is at all.

The dmg is pretty wet noodle, as there's no crit happening on spells. At best some utility from an extended cloak and off-heal with resto.

I'd like to find a good way on the console to prove that DW is providing any advantage for a magicka NB.

Help?

pick a staff note your spelldmg in your character info - equip 2 onehanded weapons compare the spelldmg stat and be surprised.

WTF!?!?! I tried this on the 1.6 XBOX NA console patch, there was NO difference whatsoever between my restostaff, and my two daggers under spell power on my character sheet. What gives? Has this been patched for the console, or does it work differently?

Disappointed.

Is this because I looked at it in Cyrodll? I'll take a pic tonite to document that it is unchanged for staff versus 2 daggers.

It works i play xbox you will not see a diffrence till you spell damage is higher

Ah, so then there is no real difference until higher levels (spell damage)? ie. not noticeable at lvl 14 but clearly higher for DW at say 30?

Thanks,

DerpyShadowz

Flameheart wrote: »

I Highlander l wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Playing a NB healer / magicka DD, I heard of that some time ago, compared dualwield vs. staff, watched my character menu, said "wow" and banned my destrcution staff from my Outfitter presets.

As magicka DD, 2 bars dualwield
As a healer, 1 bar resto staff 1 bar dualwield

Easy choice for a magicka NB anyways, my class skills for damage are equal if not better as desctruction skills anyways and besides that....it looks pretty cool :-)

Not that easy maybe for other classes, who need a "filler" damage skill on their skill bar.

May i ask why two Dual Wield bars? And PVE or PVP?

PvE of course.

More spelldamage and because I don't need a single destruction staff skill. NB class skills are equal if not better concerning damage output. Why spam Pulsar if Sap Essence is better and gives you a 20% spell damage buff and heals your whole group? Why spam Force Pulse or Destructive Reach if Crippling Grasp and Funnel Health do more damage and are even cheaper ?

Bar 1: Merciless Resolve
Crippling Grasp
Funnel Health (I play as a full healer too, therefore I have that morph and not the other)
Inner Light
Structured Entropy
Ice Comet

Bar 2: Dark Shades
Impale
Refreshing Path (as said full healer too without too much reskilling, not perfect for dps but useful for role switching)
Inner Light
Sap Essence
Soul Harvest

Ultis are interchangable, you might replace Ice Comet by Soul Tether or Veil if needed, but the ultimate gain of Soul Harvest is very nice to say at least.

The Destro staff isnt there for weapon line skills, Its there to allow you to weave a medium attack with every skill use, increasing overall dps.

Flameheart

I Highlander l wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

I Highlander l wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Playing a NB healer / magicka DD, I heard of that some time ago, compared dualwield vs. staff, watched my character menu, said "wow" and banned my destrcution staff from my Outfitter presets.

As magicka DD, 2 bars dualwield
As a healer, 1 bar resto staff 1 bar dualwield

Easy choice for a magicka NB anyways, my class skills for damage are equal if not better as desctruction skills anyways and besides that....it looks pretty cool :-)

Not that easy maybe for other classes, who need a "filler" damage skill on their skill bar.

May i ask why two Dual Wield bars? And PVE or PVP?

PvE of course.

More spelldamage and because I don't need a single destruction staff skill. NB class skills are equal if not better concerning damage output. Why spam Pulsar if Sap Essence is better and gives you a 20% spell damage buff and heals your whole group? Why spam Force Pulse or Destructive Reach if Crippling Grasp and Funnel Health do more damage and are even cheaper ?

Bar 1: Merciless Resolve
Crippling Grasp
Funnel Health (I play as a full healer too, therefore I have that morph and not the other)
Inner Light
Structured Entropy
Ice Comet

Bar 2: Dark Shades
Impale
Refreshing Path (as said full healer too without too much reskilling, not perfect for dps but useful for role switching)
Inner Light
Sap Essence
Soul Harvest

Ultis are interchangable, you might replace Ice Comet by Soul Tether or Veil if needed, but the ultimate gain of Soul Harvest is very nice to say at least.

The Destro staff isnt there for weapon line skills, Its there to allow you to weave a medium attack with every skill use, increasing overall dps.

Makes sense, but I wonder if there is a remarkable gap when you are able to stand in melee range and you are able to light attack weave ?

For ranged fighting you are probably right. I will see to make a skill bar preset for that, for ranged bosses at least.

Reeko

Idk if this has been mentioned yet or not but the final passive in DW makes it so swords give you more damage. THAT is where you are getting the extra spell damage.

chevalierknight

Reeko wrote: »

Idk if this has been mentioned yet or not but the final passive in DW makes it so swords give you more damage. THAT is where you are getting the extra spell damage.

You are wrong i had the spell damage before i get that passive

Reeko

chevalierknight wrote: »

Reeko wrote: »

Idk if this has been mentioned yet or not but the final passive in DW makes it so swords give you more damage. THAT is where you are getting the extra spell damage.

You are wrong i had the spell damage before i get that passive

I am wrong? So equiping two swords does not increase your spell damage anymore?


https://youtu.be/klrNfo340hs

DerpyShadowz

Reeko wrote: »

chevalierknight wrote: »

Reeko wrote: »

Idk if this has been mentioned yet or not but the final passive in DW makes it so swords give you more damage. THAT is where you are getting the extra spell damage.

You are wrong i had the spell damage before i get that passive

I am wrong? So equiping two swords does not increase your spell damage anymore?


https://youtu.be/klrNfo340hs

No you are right, The Dual Wield on its own Increases spell damage stat, however the last passive only increases tooltip damage of skills, Not the spell damage stat itself as far as im aware.

The video is also a pretty terrible way of showcasing the difference between staff and dual wield.