Importance of Escape / Mobility Skills

Mystikkal

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_PaulSage

I think you need to be careful here. There seems to be a big nerf to escape / mobility skills (e.g. bolt escape, hasty retreat, and dodge roll to a lesser degree). When you nerf the ability for someone to choose battles, which happens when you nerf mobility/escapes, you are encouraging zerging.

I'm personally hugely disappointed by the nerf to bow mobility; rapids + bow was the only way to really add decent escape/mobility to a templar/DK. What is the goal here? The problem with bows was not hasty retreat, it was one shots out of stealth. Even with hasty retreat the way it is, if you poorly position yourself, you will be caught and killed. I agree that sorcs escape was too strong given their survivability and burst dps, but not bows. (Yes Sorcs, your ability to escape is currently a little too strong, given your survivability and burst dps).

Please don't make it so we have to join the zergs! I really don't want to have to "stay and fight" in situations all the time. Guess what that does? Makes it so you need to run aoe and ball up. Then it becomes a numbers game - who has more players.

~Mystikkal

Mr_Koh

I agree. And it's not like the zergs don't have access to the same mobility. Also some players don't want to play in groups all the time due to time constraints etc. Solo play should not be nerfed which is exactly what happened.

QuebraRegra

Escaping was a valid mechanic/alternative to zerging.

A very minor nerf to BOLT would have been sufficient. Did anyone really have a problem with Hasty retreat? Was the problem how it stacked with some other skills? The bow line was pretty meh before the nerf, this kills it for anything but sneak sniping now.

Mystikkal

The nerf to dodge roll was already a big enough nerf to hasty retreat - but completely removing it for major expedition that any small group player is already going to be running? This makes the bow completely useless. The bow was already weak given that gap closers have no cooldown - which means you can't keep distance in this game.

I guess we should just all grab aoe abilities group up in a ball and zerg. This game needs to discourage that - you know how that's done? Ranged AOE. This is a whole other topic - but ranged AOE needs a major buff (e.g. damage, nerf to purge so seige can kill stacking groups, etc.). Making close range AOE stronger against multiple targets (e.g. prox det) is also a way to solve for it, but the 5% should go up to 10 targets, not 5. DISCOURAGE STACKING UP ALL THE TIME. it's fine to stack for a buff or something.. but it shouldn't be good to stack 24/7.

Mawgusta

PvP'er looking for zerg guild. NvM I doubt I could enjoy this meta as a solo player.

Mystikkal

Am I the only one sad to see the bow completely useless in pvp now? You know, it's probably because not a lot of ppl currently stack major expedition with hasty retreat.. so they don't really care.. which kinda proves that it isn't OP.

It was only good for one shotting and mobility. They nerfed both of those things. I agree the one shots were stupid.. but my mobility?

torinsoul

I under stand some of the nerfs are a little harsh. But it sound like people are afraid to die and I under stand that mobility and escapes are important. But when your to the point that a escape cant be countered at some point. This becomes very over overpowered. When a night blade can use hasty retreat + rapid and out run a max speed mount that's op. As well as sorc's when they can stack enuf regen to permanently spam teleport that's op. How ever I think Zos go's about things the wrong way instead of nerf,nerf,and more nerfs there must be another way. I think part of the problem is the champion system. Back be for 1.6 there was no perma dodge rollers or infinite teleport and this because of soft capes. Now with the champion system people are stacking high amounts of regen and reduced cost + gear sets. As far as dragon knights and templar and mobility most people are running mist form. This is a great escape for those classes missing out. With the improvements to vamps in the next patch I think will see more people running it.

GreenSoup2HoT

I blaim Enginee Guardian for the Dodge roll nerf.

Ludof

As Templar I'm happy.
Use dodge and BOL carefully.
Now it's cloak turn.

DisgracefulMind

Ludof wrote: »

As Templar I'm happy.
Use dodge and BOL carefully.
Now it's cloak turn.

Nerf everything because you fail to see the strengths your class provides?

Winterpsy

We were rideing towards a keep. Me & a couple of DKs, templars, NBs. Then came a sorcerer. Without horse. He was bolting all the way along with us till we reached the keep.
True story.

Ludof

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Ludof wrote: »

As Templar I'm happy.
Use dodge and BOL carefully.
Now it's cloak turn.

Nerf everything because you fail to see the strengths your class provides?

I have 3 Templar and I'm playing since 1.3; I've never had any trouble with my class, being broken and the weakest in PvP.
Trust me, you should try Templar on live, regret it and go back to your NB
Anyway, I just want the game to be balanced:it's unfair that some mechanics (perma-dodgeroll, permablock and BOL) got nerfed but not Dark Cloak.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking to destroy the key skill of Magicka NB, I would like it to be used a little less mindlessy (like Stamblade used to dodgeroll since 1.6); just to point it out, I'm fine with the detect pots nerf.

However, since you seem to have more experience than me about Templar, please tell us the strenght this class is provided ^^

PS:Please don't blame about the nerfed Jesus Beam or Puncturing Strikes Morphs (easily avoidable).

Aunatar

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Ludof wrote: »

As Templar I'm happy.
Use dodge and BOL carefully.
Now it's cloak turn.

Nerf everything because you fail to see the strengths your class provides?

"Your class" LOL sounds like you don't play a templar (but still give comments tho)
Wht don't you play it, since it' SO strong :'D

Maulkin

Aunatar wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Ludof wrote: »

As Templar I'm happy.
Use dodge and BOL carefully.
Now it's cloak turn.

Nerf everything because you fail to see the strengths your class provides?

"Your class" LOL sounds like you don't play a templar (but still give comments tho)
Wht don't you play it, since it' SO strong :'D

First off his sig shows he already has a vr14 Templar who he played enough to get Emp with.

Secondly, people main classes cause they suit their style more, not just because it's stronger/weaker than another. My main was a DK at launch but switched to Sorc 4-5 months in (despite DKs being ridiculously stronger at the time) as the kite and move playstyle suited me better.

I also have a vr14 magicka Nightblade who is obscenely strong and I play from time to time but don't enjoy it anywhere near as my Sorc cause being perma-cloaked and bursting people from stealth is not something I enjoy doing as much as being in peoples faces.

People can express opinion on classes without that being their main. Especially if they have good experience with it.

briandivisionb16_ESO

Detect Potions need a counter e.g. anyone using one glows white!

Ludof

First off his sig shows he already has a vr14 Templar who he played enough to get Emp with.
.

He edited his signature to add his characters ; I always check sig before posting useless stuff.

People can express opinion on classes without that being their main. Especially if they have good experience with it.

You're right, that's why I'm waiting for his opinion about the strenghts of the Templar.

I also have a vr14 magicka Nightblade who is obscenely strong and I play from time to time but don't enjoy it anywhere near as my Sorc cause being perma-cloaked and bursting people from stealth is not something I enjoy doing as much as being in peoples faces.

Imo right again,Magicka NB can be obscenely strong.
So, since you have experience with at least 3 classes what do you think about perma-cloak?

Aunatar

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Aunatar wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Ludof wrote: »

As Templar I'm happy.
Use dodge and BOL carefully.
Now it's cloak turn.

Nerf everything because you fail to see the strengths your class provides?

"Your class" LOL sounds like you don't play a templar (but still give comments tho)
Wht don't you play it, since it' SO strong :'D

First off his sig shows he already has a vr14 Templar who he played enough to get Emp with.

Secondly, people main classes cause they suit their style more, not just because it's stronger/weaker than another. My main was a DK at launch but switched to Sorc 4-5 months in (despite DKs being ridiculously stronger at the time) as the kite and move playstyle suited me better.

I also have a vr14 magicka Nightblade who is obscenely strong and I play from time to time but don't enjoy it anywhere near as my Sorc cause being perma-cloaked and bursting people from stealth is not something I enjoy doing as much as being in peoples faces.

People can express opinion on classes without that being their main. Especially if they have good experience with it.

Look man, I would have the patience to answer to anything, but Templar being too strong... won't waste my time there. And look, I don't really think Templars are the biggest crying army here. All I see is "nerf sorcs" "nerf shields" "nerf permablock". Pretty much everything that isn't NB stuff

Aunatar

And thanks god templars are having better days on PTS at the moment.

Mystikkal

torinsoul wrote: »

I under stand some of the nerfs are a little harsh. But it sound like people are afraid to die and I under stand that mobility and escapes are important. But when your to the point that a escape cant be countered at some point. This becomes very over overpowered. When a night blade can use hasty retreat + rapid and out run a max speed mount that's op. As well as sorc's when they can stack enuf regen to permanently spam teleport that's op. How ever I think Zos go's about things the wrong way instead of nerf,nerf,and more nerfs there must be another way. I think part of the problem is the champion system. Back be for 1.6 there was no perma dodge rollers or infinite teleport and this because of soft capes. Now with the champion system people are stacking high amounts of regen and reduced cost + gear sets. As far as dragon knights and templar and mobility most people are running mist form. This is a great escape for those classes missing out. With the improvements to vamps in the next patch I think will see more people running it.

On live, the only real escape that is OP is bolt escape. NBs are meant to be quick hitters that can reasonably get away (but also can get caught pretty easily).

I don't think mist form provides sufficient mobility. You can still be snared/rooted and its only major expediation. the point is.. the zergs run major expedition and when they chase you, eventually they can mount up. Solo/small groups need the ability to move around and not get caught by zerg chains. otherwise, the game continues to promote zergs. It shouldn't be easy to get away... which it currently isnt for any class but sorcs... but it should be reasonably possible if you spec correctly (when you spec for bow, you give up a lot, e.g. most likely no steel tornado, etc.).

Mystikkal

you are now going to see sorcs run bolt + mist.. so they can still get away.. or stam with bow or rapids and bolt.

NBs will be able to cloak.

Templars and DKs will now be fatties that cant get away from zergs... and if they are magicka.. it'll be even worse.

Aunatar

Mystikkal wrote: »

you are now going to see sorcs run bolt + mist.. so they can still get away.. or stam with bow or rapids and bolt.

NBs will be able to cloak.

Templars and DKs will now be fatties that cant get away from zergs... and if they are magicka.. it'll be even worse.

Exactly what is happening on PTS.

omfgitsbatman

Seriously, every class does have it's strengths and weaknesses.

Templar strengths - They are strongest bomb healers, they hit like trucks when they do hit you with something like biting jabs, Pretty survivable in melee range, Excellent CC
Templar weaknesses - Very limited mobility, harder hitting skills are difficult to aim

Sorc Strengths - Excellent mobility, Excellent ranged ability and survivability, excellent combination attack (burst) capability
Sorc Weaknesses - Sustained dps, low bar versatility because of all of the toggles, squishy if defenses drop at all

DK Strengths - Extremely survivable under most conditions, amazing self healing, the heavy attacks, large amounts of powerful DoT's, excellent CC
DK Weaknesses- Limited Mobility, Limited range on class abilities

NB Strengths - Extremely mobile and sneaky, capable of very large burst from stealth, Excellent CC
NB Weaknesses- No large class heal or shield, Very squishy if caught out of stealth

All classes were not designed the same. All classes will not be balanced in every situation. Don't expect them to be. You should pick a character based on what playstyle suits you.

A nerf should be called for when one class can be the best in all or most situations. A NB will never be the best at surviving in close quarters with multiple people beating on them. A DK will never be able to chose escape as easilly as a NB. A sorc won't be able to stand in close range as well as a Templar. A Templar will not be the best class at ranged.

Master_Kas

ZOS wants us to group up and zerg.

They nerfed ult gain before, now mobility.

Epic battles of hundreds of players, welcome to ESO


Both the bolt and dodgeroll nerf was to harsh imo. Even the bowroll nerf.

Maulkin

Ludof wrote: »

Imo right again,Magicka NB can be obscenely strong.
So, since you have experience with at least 3 classes what do you think about perma-cloak?

Time will tell. I don't mind going on live with the changes to detect pots and fixes to cloak. Then a month later we'l see where we are.

Currently perma-cloak is great for picking when you want to enter the fight and entering with burst, but it can be problematic when you try to escape. Apart from being flaky and breaking at times, it's also got some a very strong counters especially detect pots, caltrops and steel tornado. So in some ways I'm happy with the detect pot nerf.

My main complain as a Sorc (which I main) or any magicka build, post-detect pot nerf I don't really have any counters to cloak. Radiant Magelight is a great counter to the offensive potential of cloak but won't help you catch an escaping NB much because you can't match their mobility. Not to mention that you have to use 2 slots and swallow a magicka reduction. Flare is still hugely subpar compared to Caltrops. I have no 12m AoE like Steel Tornado.

My only good AoE to pop a NB out of stealth is Streak and while a NB can spam cloak, my Streak becomes ridiculously expensive very quickly, so I can't use that either. Which is why we /feedback to the devs that Streak should have the increasing cost reset when you damage an enemy with it, which means you are actually staying in the fight instead of running away.

So yeah stamina builds have some very good options to counter cloak without pots but magicka builds (unless NBs with Mark) not so.

But, we'll see how it goes.

aco5712

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

I blaim Enginee Guardian for the Dodge roll nerf.

i blame the ridiuclous regens people can have while maintaining damage