Observations on Destruction Staffs: Some bugs and where we have come since 1.6

Joy_Division

When 1.6 came out, I wrote up a critique about the relative imbalance between destruction staves here While I feel some of the issues have been addressed, there still exists some bugs and general gameplay concepts that Zenimax ought to address.

Wall of Elements. This skill is still bad. It is still burdened by the three main problems it had from 1.6: very low damage, can only have one wall down at a time, overlaps and does not function if any other wall from another player exists. I know they increased the base duration by 2 seconds. But truth be told, even if this skill lasted an hour, I still would not use it because the damage per tick is uncompetitive and comparable skills such as Eruption / Liquid Lightning are more user friendly and perform additional functions. In PvP, my health regeneration is higher than the damage this skill would cause. The one redeeming function the skill has is a potential immobilizer (the one excellent change for frost staffs on the 2.1 PTS).

What to do:

• The main problem with this skill is low damage. I can only place one wall down which severely limits the number of targets I can effect. The damage per second is non competitive. Why use this skill where I can only place down a single low-damage wall (that targets will move out of) instead of Impulse that can be spammed, spammed, spammed? With so few skills that we can place on our bars, impulse is *always* going to be slotted over wall.
• Allow multiple walls (but still keep the 1.5 overlap mechanic so players couldn't stack them Vs. a single target)
• It's a DoT. These need to be higher DPS than standard skills (especially since targets can move out of the wall!). Raise damage.

Destructive Touch. This is a mixed bag. I do not like the ZoS philosophy of presenting us nerfs that were not asked for (or were not needed), so while the issue of inferno version being too strong relative to the others is "solved," the final product is less than desirable. The inferno staff now causes a knockback, a very weak CC, arguably an undesirable one from the perspective of the staff user, as it affords the opponent a very powerful state of CC immunity for little inconvenience. I did not read a single post on the forums complaining the stun was too strong. I used an inferno staff and didn't use this skill as it was (mostly because of the damage shield issue: see below) and I certainly won't be using it in 2.1. Nobody likes nerfs. This was a mistake. The shock stun was needed, the removal of the token AOE component was not.

There are still problems

• In 1.6, anyone with a damage shield was afforded CC immunity against this skill and did not suffer the DoT effect (as if they weren't strong enough as it is). I have not tested this specifically for the PTS, but as I read nothing that indicates this has changed, I will assume it is still the case.
• The short range morphs of this skill still are still relatively weak.
• Even with a master's weapon that increased the damage with this spell and reduced its cost, I had difficulty justifying slotting this skill.
• The inferno projectile's animation change looks too much like a light attack. The art and animation is one of this game's strengths and this change is dubious not only in that it makes it too difficult to differentiate between a skill and basic attack, but also as the old inferno Destructive Touch animation was aesthetically very well done.

Note:

This is a light attack


This is the Destructive Reach attack.

Without looking at the caster, it would be too difficult to know this was not a light attack. In a PvP environment, I feel it is especially important to be able to quickly differentiate and identify what skill are being directed at us, especially in light of the new IC release with its frenetic pace and 100% loss of Tel Var stones! Please revert this change and bring back the old excellent animation.

Heavy attacks I wish these were a viable part of the game, but with the current limitless resources (at least for offensive use), there is little reason to ever use them except in a corner-case scenario. Nerfing the inferno and fire versions, even with the trivial amount that was done for 2.1, was unnecessary. Besides the problem was not that these weapons were doing too much damage, it was the lightning staff doing too little. And this problem still exists in 2.1.

• The lightning channeled heavy attack still cannot critical hit. Until this inconsistency is removed from the game, lightning staff users will be plagued by a significant DPS loss in addition to not getting any beneficial procs that accompany critical hits.
• The are other issues. There is definitely some missing coding when it comes to channeled staff heavy attacks. Not only are they incapable of a critical hit, they sometimes do not proc stuff like the beneficial effect from the siphon spirit spell. Also the Dragonknight's Molten Armaments spell has zero effect on these channels.

Regular Lightning attacks Vs. a mammoth


Molten Armaments Lightning attack Vs. a low health mammoth

Damage is identical (though the "shock pulse" does get properly modified)

It's the same for a restoration heavy attack:


Regular Restoration attack


Molten Armaments Restoration attack.

• The Tri Focus passive with heavy lightning attacks is not functioning
• In 1.6, a heavy lighting attack hit two nearby enemies with a "shock" bonus damage of 20% of the original attack. This token bonus worked correctly.
• According to the patch notes, "The Lightning Staff bonus attack now hits up to 6 targets instead of 2 targets." According to the tooltip in the game "Fully charged heavy shock attacks damage nearby enemies for 100% of the damage done." This is not happening:

• What does happen is the final "pulse attack" deals damage to nearby enemies (as it should according to the PTS patch notes), but often times it will hit for trivial damage (in the above screen shot case, 3 out of 4 pulse bonus attacks hit for 13 damage).
• The way I read the intent, each tick of a fully charged heavy attack should hit nearby enemies for 50%/100% (depending on the Tri-focus rank) of the damage done and then the shock pulse should also hit these targets for 50%/100% (depending on the Tri-focus rank). The first is not happening. At all. No damage. The second sometimes has trivial damage.

The poor restoration staff: Lacking any ability to critically hit, lacking a "pulse" damage at the end of a completed attack, and having an insignificant heavy attack passives (an imperceptible heal, minor resource return in a game where heavy attack resource return is generally not needed), the restoration staff is a burden to use, even for a dedicated healer. Healers begrudgingly equip this solely to access its skills and lament they cannot wield their dual swords. In just some quick DPS checks, my inferno staff heavy attacks were roughly 75% higher than my lightning heavy attacks, which in turn were roughly 50% higher than the restoration heavy attack.

What to do?

• In my 1.6 thread, I suggested making lighting heavy attacks act as a conduit and damage any nearby target. While I do not know if that thread was any inspiration, I am glad to see in the patch notes an attempt at this mechanic. But it needs to be properly coded and actually do the damage (the full as indicated by the tooltip - the 20% is far too marginal) and the next to nothing 13 damage bug from the shock pulse also needs to be fixed. Even with this mechanic, lighting staff users are at a significant single target DPS loss and I suspect spamming impulse (not limited to 6 targets) is still going to be what we all do in DSA, trials, and what not. But in that rare instance where I do find myself heavy attacking, I at least would be glad to have a lightning staff. My suggestion is not to limit this to 6 targets, rather follow the regular rules for AOE caps (like impulse). Then again, I think AoE caps need to disappear (at least in Cyrodiil).
• The old aesthetically pleasing and easy to distinguish Inferno Destructive Reach spell should be reverted back into the game.
• Channels need to critically hit
• Damage shields should not block Destructive Reach CC effects or its DoT.
• The stun from Inferno Destructive Reach was not broken or imbalanced and should not be nerfed.
• The stun for the Shock Destructive Reach was an excellent change. Keep the conduit damage to keep shock's AoE theme consistent and bring in line with Inferno version.
• I'd like to see a snare associated with the Frost Version as stun > immobilize
• I like the addition of a damage shield for frost staff users as this staff is more about defense / CC. I'm not sure it was clear that this only applies to fully charged heavy attacks. Which in my opinion, lessens its desirability as unfortunately in the current state of the game there isn't much reason to use a fully charged heavy attack.
• Revert Wall of Elements back to its useful and reasonably balanced 1.5 standing: multiple walls and competitive damage. The purge bug was the problem, not the skill.
• I do like the addition of the Wall procs Vs. Burning and Chilled targets. I find the chilled proc potentially useful. The problem with burning is base damage is too low; 20% of relatively nothing is nothing. The patch notes indicate no additional status effect for Concussed targets (which, IIRC correctly, were already set "off balance.") Suggestion: add additional proc effect for Concussed targets: They act as a conduit and shock nearby enemies.
• Restoration staff attack and passives and need revision.

That's it for now!

Dracane

Also, Force shock doesn't seem to apply elemental effects anymore> Making the Force Pulse morph even more useless compared to Crushing Shock.

And Shock clench is no stun, it is a knockdown. Even though the tooltip says, it's a stun. Wish it was a stun though

Merlin13KAGL

+1 to bringing 1.5 Wall of Elements back.

Regarding inferno/destro touch, destruction staves were not the issue. Overemphasis of fire was the issue. Each elemental effect should have its place and it downfall. They tried to correct some of this with damage/projectile speed.

They countered their own fix by taking away effects. (There was zero change between Destro touch and Destro clench = what happened to deeper freeze?)

Also, shouldn't the entire Destro staff line produce elemental damage, not just elemental effects?

Force shock and morphs are the only ones that actually produce elemental damage (as perceived from a mitigation standpoint), the remaining attacks are all magic attacks w/ chance for elemental effects.

Considering you cannot have a 'just magic' staff, does this strike anyone else as odd, making it even more counterintuitive that elemental expert would not have as much effect on the end result as thematurge.

You shouldn't have to guess what the damage source is, not to deal it, not to mitigate it.

Last thing, immunities. There should be no such thing as 100% immune. Reduced effect? Sure, but none at all, no.

Joy_Division

Some more (bug) feedback on channeled attacks.

Radiant Destruction cannot critically hit. I *think* this has been pointed out, but I am going to give more feedback to help the developers get to the bottom of the issue.

I think the problem is with the channeled mechanic. I know channeled Lighting and Restoration attacks could *never* critically hit in any of the game's iterations. I'm sure of this because I've submitted it using /bug and /feedback since last year in addition to reporting this issue on the forum. What I am not sure is that is ZoS is aware that channel attacks cannot critically hit. There is no dedicated bug forum, never any responses to the /bug reports that we submit, and no place anywhere on the Internet with a compiled buglist that ZoS has acknowledged and is working on. So there is no communication at all between the developers and customers on the critical issue of bugs, which I think is a mistake. If ZoS decided to fix the Radiant destruction bonus damage issue by using the same broken mechanic that has persisted with other channeled attacks, that is the reason why currently it cannot critically hit.

I just tested Radiant Destruction in on Live with a 40% spell critical and I was getting criticals (including the first tick) against various opponents in Glenumbra. Against these same opponents on the PTS, not a single critical hit.

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_BrianWheeler - I wouldn't ask you to respond to every single feedback suggestion on the forum and nor would I want you as I'd much prefer you folks actually work on the game to make a better product for us to play. But the method of communication regarding bugs is and always has been less than desirable. I have no confidence that any of the bug feedback I have submitted is ever read or acknowledged and my motivation for providing you with fairly detailed descriptions of bugs and inconsistent mechanics is all but gone. As I said, I remember submitting a bug report with channeled attack no critically hitting or generating proc effects when I started using a lightning staff way way back when I was like level 20something back in May 2014 and have made repeated inquires about it. It's one thing if you feel channeled attacks should follow different rules and *not* critically hit (although I would be flabbergasted as to why that would be desirable), but now this same bug is potentially affecting a class skill (and an important one at that).

It would be *very* helpful when a bug is submitted, just to pop in with a "thank you for the bug report, we are aware of it and have submitted it to the combat team."

I also think there should be a sticky report of the known and acknowledged bugs in its own separate forum to facilitate the communication of these issues that affect gameplay performance and the "quality of life' experience, to use your own phrase.

To recap on the bugs I have encountered:

• Channeled "beam" attacks that have ticks, i.e. stuff like heavy lighting attacks, not the templar dark flare, are incapable of a critical hit. This has always been the case for Restoration and Lightning staff heavy attacks.
• Radiant Destruction also cannot achieve a critical hit on the PTS. It could in 1.6.
• The Dragonknight skill igneous weapons does not interact at all with channeled heavy restoration and lightning attacks.
• The Tri-Focus passive for lighting staff heavy attack granting 100% damage to nearby enemies does not function at all. It did in 1.6
• The "pulse" at the end of a lightning heavy attack does hit nearby targets, but sometimes inflicts trivial damage.

Again, just an acknowledgement of this (and bugs other folks submitted) would go a long way at facilitating the type of communication we all want around here as well as getting these issues hammered down and fixed.

Beesting

On my pts character the fire ring morph of impulse sound effect has been changed to someting that sound like ice

Now fire impulse is no longer fun to use

Ysne58

The patch notes indicate that the aoe is being removed from the lightning staff destructive reach/touch skill. I think this is a huge mistake.

Instead of removing the aoe from lightning staffs, add it to the fire and frost staffs as well. There are very few distance aoe for nightblades unless we take bow. Bow does not fit my play style the way a staff does.