Why the changes to Shalidor's Curse and Ravager sets?

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Anyone have any idea why they changed these?

From the patch notes:

Shalidor's Curse: All light attacks will now heal you when you are below 50% health.

Ravager: Added a 10 second cooldown to this item set’s effect.

For an 8-trait crafted set, Shalidor's Curse has lost a lot of its appeal. As a tanking set, performing light attacks means dropping block, something you're not likely to do below 50% health. The large "oh crap heal" (currently 6868hp on Live) with a 1 minute cooldown that Shalidor's currently offers is much better suited to both PvP and PvE tanking and emergency healing, especially for classes that don't have burst self-heals that can be blockcasted (NB and Sorc). In fact, the new heal value is 526hp, so you'd need to do 13 consecutive light attacks while under 50% health to equal the value of the current instant heal -- in other words, not really feasible. Song of Lamae is the closest option in terms of crafted sets, but it heals for significantly less. This is part of the larger trend in this update trying to boost light/heavy attack viability, but the implementation here seems counter-effective, especially since the set was not overpowered and largely overlooked.

With the change to Ravager, adding the 10-second cooldown to Ravager means that it cannot refresh itself before it expires, so you will inevitably lose a significant chunk of weapon power during fights between procs. This, combined with the fact that Caltrops is no longer considered a melee attack, is basically a double nerf to the set. Unfortunately this heavy armor set that buffs weapon damage nicely will not be as useful with this change either; similar to the issue with Siphoning Attacks, fixing Caltrops would have been sufficient balance.

Rook_Master

lol I knew Ravager nerf was coming that was why I never invested in it.

It also doesn't proc off Caltrops anymore so gg

kogadrake

Ravager - lets be honest, if they wanted it to have a 100% uptime of the buff they would have copied Hunding's Rage and made it a passive increased wep dmg increase... They want each set to be different, they achieve this with the change

I cant say much on the SC set change as I never used it (nor world I plan to use it) on a tank or otherwise.. I can see how group play the old way could be better, larger heal less often from a light attack (I personally would say its kinda bad in current state because you have to drop block to proc it, and if you do this to get the heal thinking it is up but still on cooldown = bad). The PTS version will more consistently give you smaller heals, and guess what we will have block down much more frequent so dropping block to basic attack is going to be normal with the incoming changes, so I see how it works better with the new style of tanking in groups. For solo play I think the new version will be far superior!

Dracane

Shalidors Curse is a highly underpopulated set, nobody uses it>It receives a buff
Ravager is a highly overused set, most stamina builds use it> it gets turned down a bit.

I tell you, the changes to the archmage were made, so that Sorcs cannot use seducer AND archmage to blink 1 or 2 times more

ThatNeonZebraAgain

kogadrake wrote: »

Ravager - lets be honest, if they wanted it to have a 100% uptime of the buff they would have copied Hunding's Rage and made it a passive increased wep dmg increase... They want each set to be different, they achieve this with the change

I cant say much on the SC set change as I never used it (nor world I plan to use it) on a tank or otherwise.. I can see how group play the old way could be better, larger heal less often from a light attack (I personally would say its kinda bad in current state because you have to drop block to proc it, and if you do this to get the heal thinking it is up but still on cooldown = bad). The PTS version will more consistently give you smaller heals, and guess what we will have block down much more frequent so dropping block to basic attack is going to be normal with the incoming changes, so I see how it works better with the new style of tanking in groups. For solo play I think the new version will be far superior!

I've been using 5pc Shalidor, 5pc Footman, and 2pc Malubeth on my NB tank the past few months with great success. I think you misunderstand how the 5pc Shalidor bonus currently works. On live, the current version does not require using a light attack; it simply procs off any kind of attack once you drop below 30% health, which means you can blockcast an attack and get the heal (the tooltip states "When attacking a target while you are below 30% health..."). The current heal value on live is 6868 instantly with a 1 minute cooldown (I actually get right under 8k after my buffs to healing received, which is about 1/4 my total health). The heal value on PTS is 526hp for every light attack while below 50% health. You're right, dropping block for stamina regen will mean you can better perform light attacks. However, as a tank, it would likely be better to keep your shield up and sacrifice the stamina and get bigger instant heals from other sources rather than let it down to get 526hp back; in fact, it would take you 13 light attacks (so minimum 13 seconds) while under 50% health to get the amount of healing equivalent to the old version (ie you'd be dead before you could complete them). If you have damage shields you can keep up, then that would be one way to make it more appealing, or if you're a sorc and using Overload (if you're doing that though, there are far better sets than this one). The new version offers an overall potential for more healing, but in practice it just wouldn't be a feasible choice for most builds, especially since this is a tanking set. The new change just simply seems worse, which, now that I think about it, does fit in line with their overall debuffing of crafted sets to turn people onto the new sets from IC. For solo and group play, PvE and PvP, the older version offers a stronger, safer, and more logical bonus. I see no real reason to have changed it.

Dracane wrote: »

Shalidors Curse is a highly underpopulated set, nobody uses it>It receives a buff
Ravager is a highly overused set, most stamina builds use it> it gets turned down a bit.

I tell you, the changes to the archmage were made, so that Sorcs cannot use seducer AND archmage to blink 1 or 2 times more

The new change is far from a buff. See my above analysis.

Dracane

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Shalidors Curse is a highly underpopulated set, nobody uses it>It receives a buff
Ravager is a highly overused set, most stamina builds use it> it gets turned down a bit.

I tell you, the changes to the archmage were made, so that Sorcs cannot use seducer AND archmage to blink 1 or 2 times more

The new change is far from a buff. See my above analysis.

On the screenshot I've seen, Shalidor restores 3000 health per hit.
If it is only 600 as you say, then yes, useless and not appropriate for an 8 trait set.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Dracane wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Shalidors Curse is a highly underpopulated set, nobody uses it>It receives a buff
Ravager is a highly overused set, most stamina builds use it> it gets turned down a bit.

I tell you, the changes to the archmage were made, so that Sorcs cannot use seducer AND archmage to blink 1 or 2 times more

The new change is far from a buff. See my above analysis.

On the screenshot I've seen, Shalidor restores 3000 health per hit.
If it is only 600 as you say, then yes, useless and not appropriate for an 8 trait set.

Let me log back on and I'll get screencaps of PTS versus Live tooltips (and keep in mind buffs to healing received do not apply to tooltip values).

Dracane

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Shalidors Curse is a highly underpopulated set, nobody uses it>It receives a buff
Ravager is a highly overused set, most stamina builds use it> it gets turned down a bit.

I tell you, the changes to the archmage were made, so that Sorcs cannot use seducer AND archmage to blink 1 or 2 times more

The new change is far from a buff. See my above analysis.

On the screenshot I've seen, Shalidor restores 3000 health per hit.
If it is only 600 as you say, then yes, useless and not appropriate for an 8 trait set.

Let me log back on and I'll get screencaps of PTS versus Live tooltips.(and keep in mind buffs to healing received do not apply to tooltip values).

Which is positive. Because you get a bit more out of it than the tooltip tells you
However, if it's really 600.... forget this set. Even if it was 3000 heal or more, it's not usefull for me at least.
Your healer will burst heal you up to full in 1 second anyway.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Dracane wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Shalidors Curse is a highly underpopulated set, nobody uses it>It receives a buff
Ravager is a highly overused set, most stamina builds use it> it gets turned down a bit.

I tell you, the changes to the archmage were made, so that Sorcs cannot use seducer AND archmage to blink 1 or 2 times more

The new change is far from a buff. See my above analysis.

On the screenshot I've seen, Shalidor restores 3000 health per hit.
If it is only 600 as you say, then yes, useless and not appropriate for an 8 trait set.

Let me log back on and I'll get screencaps of PTS versus Live tooltips.(and keep in mind buffs to healing received do not apply to tooltip values).

Which is positive. Because you get a bit more out of it than the tooltip tells you
However, if it's really 600.... forget this set. Even if it was 3000 heal or more, it's not usefull for me at least.
Your healer will burst heal you up to full in 1 second anyway.

That is true, but it buffs both heals equally, so it doesn't make one better than the other.

Ok here are Live values for Shalidor's Curse set:



And here are PTS values:



You're right, this set is completely forgettable now.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Maybe you can pass this on to itemization team to have a look at? There really seems like no good point to changing this set, there are plenty of other things that encourage basic attacks, while no other crafted set that provides a decent instant self-heal.

Hiero_Glyph

SC being an 8-trait set is what makes this change so bad as its not like crafting it can be done overnight. I have to admit that IC is really screwing over crafters.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

SC being an 8-trait set is what makes this change so bad as its not like crafting it can be done overnight. I have to admit that IC is really screwing over crafters.

Yea, it really comes off that they are devaluing crafted sets for the sake of encouraging people to buy IC DLC to get access to "better" sets.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Any reponse?

AhPook_Is_Here

Rook_Master wrote: »

lol I knew Ravager nerf was coming that was why I never invested in it.

It also doesn't proc off Caltrops anymore so gg

LOL what exactly did you save, 1,25 million now worthless AP? Like a smart guy I once new said, "Smoke 'em if you got 'em".

AhPook_Is_Here

I think Whitestrake's has always been a better set than Shalidor's as far as an oh crap my healers are asleep on Manti, 1/4 the cool down, more effective healing (in the form of a shield). the 4p on Shalidor's is better but that is about it. Not sure why they made that change.

HeroOfNone

If your swinging your weapon every second then you're getting basicly 525 health regen right? Of course since you're not using heavy attacks you're not getting any stamina...

AhPook_Is_Here

HeroOfNone wrote: »

If your swinging your weapon every second then you're getting basicly 525 health regen right? Of course since you're not using heavy attacks you're not getting any stamina...

If you are below 50% tanking a hard hitting PVE boss and swinging your weapon around (not blocking) that's pretty brave!

What this set will be good for is PVP vampires, esp NBs that can set up siphons and be really hard to execute down around 10%.

ColtPython

Is ravager still the best stam dps gear. Im sure it is great still for stamplar because the jabs are so frequent. But, for a wrecking blow build is this set RIP?

HeroOfNone

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

If your swinging your weapon every second then you're getting basicly 525 health regen right? Of course since you're not using heavy attacks you're not getting any stamina...

If you are below 50% tanking a hard hitting PVE boss and swinging your weapon around (not blocking) that's pretty brave!

What this set will be good for is PVP vampires, esp NBs that can set up siphons and be really hard to execute down around 10%.

Not even sure it's good for that, the light attacks seem to make it more for constant light attack spam, less weaving

Dagoth_Rac

Does anyone know if the Ravager cooldown is from when the last proc initiated or when the buff ended? So you get in a fight, Ravager procs after 7 seconds and stays active until 17 seconds. Can it proc again at 20 seconds if RNG is friendly since it has been 13 seconds since last proc? Or can it not proc again until at least 27 seconds, 10 seconds after last ravager buff ended?

TBois

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Does anyone know if the Ravager cooldown is from when the last proc initiated or when the buff ended? So you get in a fight, Ravager procs after 7 seconds and stays active until 17 seconds. Can it proc again at 20 seconds if RNG is friendly since it has been 13 seconds since last proc? Or can it not proc again until at least 27 seconds, 10 seconds after last ravager buff ended?

From my testing proccing it with whirling blades, it can proc at 20s. The changes to ravager are that you can't refresh the buff before it is over and it doesn't proc on caltrops anymore. Because it doesn't proc on caltrops the buff is a lot less reliable, but you can still get it to proc fairly fequently with AOEs under i think 8/10m like brawler (2h) and whirling blades (DW) [steel tornbado does not proc ravager since its radius is 12m]

Dagoth_Rac

sixuponthelot wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Does anyone know if the Ravager cooldown is from when the last proc initiated or when the buff ended? So you get in a fight, Ravager procs after 7 seconds and stays active until 17 seconds. Can it proc again at 20 seconds if RNG is friendly since it has been 13 seconds since last proc? Or can it not proc again until at least 27 seconds, 10 seconds after last ravager buff ended?

From my testing proccing it with whirling blades, it can proc at 20s. The changes to ravager are that you can't refresh the buff before it is over and it doesn't proc on caltrops anymore. Because it doesn't proc on caltrops the buff is a lot less reliable, but you can still get it to proc fairly fequently with AOEs under i think 8/10m like brawler (2h) and whirling blades (DW) [steel tornbado does not proc ravager since its radius is 12m]

That is still pretty good. If there was an enforced 10-second downtime where you could not have buff, Hunding's flat 300 weapon damage would be as good or better than Ravager's 600 weapon damage half of the time (or less). So if you can consistently get it to proc in less than 10 seconds after the buff drops, you will come out ahead of Hunding.

Of course, you cannot wear Hunding's twice! So it is not really a choice of Hunding versus Ravager. You can wear both. And it will likely still be a great combo, especially since the Hunding and Ravager 5-piece weapon damage numbers are unchanged, compared to standard 2-4 piece weapon bonuses getting nerfed.

TBois

Yeah I was thinking about dropping ravager, but I think I will just switch to whirling blades instead of steel tornado and keep ravager. If I do drop ravager it will be to help my group with the larger radius steel tornado.

The ravager set holds a special place in my heart as TBois even wore it when staves scaled off weapon damage as a healing sorc, proccing it off caltrops. So I hope it still makes sense to fit it in my build.

Joy_Division

The old crafted version of the Shalidor Curse set was bad. The new crafted version of this set is also bad. It's an 8 trait set. What exactly in ZoS's track record regarding itemization would lead you to believe they might make this set competitive to begin with, let alone listen to your commentary and adjust it to make it a meaningful option?

Stalwart385

Shalidors Curse plus Shield Breaker would be fun to mess with Sorcs. LA spam to win. Don't think its possible though.

actosh

Zos should rework all the Sets. Huge efford of work needed, but atm the itamization suxx. Few viable sets and that they wont increase all to vr16 is a lets called it not so smart idea

IxSTALKERxI

I've already deconstructed my legendary ravanger lol.

Ryuho

@ThatNeonZebraAgain srry but they wont listen man. Patch is ready, they will apply minor changes only, I am sure of it. They always release bugged content, and then push few fixes to fix all what they messed with. I was really happy for 1.7, but to be honest after playing on PTS and reading PTS forum I am not sure to buy DLC or not.. maybe finally I should move somewhere else..

Sacadon

sixuponthelot wrote: »

Yeah I was thinking about dropping ravager, but I think I will just switch to whirling blades instead of steel tornado and keep ravager. If I do drop ravager it will be to help my group with the larger radius steel tornado.

The ravager set holds a special place in my heart as TBois even wore it when staves scaled off weapon damage as a healing sorc, proccing it off caltrops. So I hope it still makes sense to fit it in my build.

Good to know it was not completely nerfed into uselessness as I've had zero test time on PTS. We all knew it wouldn't last forever, but still sucks a bit. If whirling does proc it, there may be some viable way to offset the loss of reach. Hopefully anyway.

Cuyler

Still trying to get an answer on if Ravager will scale to v16 from the rewards for the worthy bags?

s1gm4xb14_ESO

Honestly If they are set on keeping the shalidors curse set as is, they can atleast increase the health threshold to 75% from 50%. That would atleast make the set pretty attractive for Pvp.