Feedback: Werewolves

Telel

So in between enjoying so many hours of crashing Telel got to spend a few minutes in imperial city and in other areas trying out the changes made to the werewolf ultimate, and the serpent stone.

Firstly they wish to say they approve of the change that requires someone to slot the ultimate in order to gain the benefit of the stamina regeneration bonus. They have long asked for this as part of the few steps required to make the most expensive ultimate in the game something useful but not so great that everyone wishes to have it.

However they believe that there are still a few things that would make the WW more viable, especially in a PVP enviroment. So with that being said they will now list these things instead of speaking like a khajiit about them.

1) Keep the requirement that the ultimate be slotted to enjoy the regeneration bonus. However they'd like to see ONE of the following added

a) make it increase ALL stat regenerations.
b) A small passive increase to all physical damage. Nothing as big as Flawless Dawnbreaker so as to keep that ultimates utility. But a 3-6% increase combined with the stamina regen would be nice.
c) A speed, and detection range boost. This would let werewolves run down their prey and also make them more able to find those hiding from them.

2) Make the werewolf immune to stuns and or reduce the cost for break free by a great deal. alternatively make that immunity a part of the Alpha morph and leave the berserker morph as is.

3) Reduce the cost of the various werewolf skills. Right now i can burn through my stamina faster using my WW skills than I can using a non WW skill that does something equivalent. Examples such as wrecking blow for knockdowns, vigor for heals, and hysteria for fear. When combined with the werewolf becomeing the biggest target in the room this has made transformation near suicide unless you're backed by multiple quick , and lucky, healers.

4) Something needs to be done ot make the Alpha morph more useful, especially in PVP. Due to the fast paces of the fights there's usually little time to do heavy attacks, and any time gained is usually done so through use of devour and pouncing. This makes the berserker the go to morph even when there are several of us running in a pack at once, especially due to the difficult of pulling off effective group transformations.

a) Have the alpha morph further boost regeneration, or cause its various howls to also proc a heal for any werewolves nearby?
b) Make this morph immune to stuns, while leaving the berserker morph vulnerable to them.

CP5

I would like to add something i've noticed on live but hasn't changed on pts. Werewolves seem to be heavily focused on heavy attacks, not only for the pack leader time regen but also for to maintain their stamina. Having their primary stamina management tool on a long charge up and requiring melee range makes it difficult to sustain their expensive skills and nowhere in their tree do they have a skill cost reduction passive, just an observation.

Also, does anyone use brutal pounce at all?

Jar_Ek

Well from my experience in PvP the biggest issue is the transformation time which is essentially a death sentence built into an ultimate. Unless I transform in advance I die during the transformation as the fear only kicks in after the transformation is complete.

The second biggest issue is the fact that as the werewolf has no defensive skills, it is actually has less survivability than the human form.

The third biggest issue for me is the mob density in standard cyrodill is too low for sustaining the form.

Alcast

1.WW transforming is very slow and you are just sitting there like a duck waiting to get shot
2.WW Ulti needs 288 Ultipoints(which is completely idiotic) to transform
3.WW Fear has a very slow animation...
4.Cost of Skills is high.. with 3x Skillcost reduction Howl still costs 2k stamina/use
5.You are Target Nr1 due to the fact that you are bigger than anyone else (And with Packleader WHITE color on top of that)
6.Cant charge WW ulti while you are transformed...
7.Cooldown of feeding on an enemy is annoying.

Would be nice if:

A.WW transformation is INSTANT or that you take 50% less dmg during the slow transformation
B.WW Ulti cost set down to 200
C.WW Fear is Instant Like Mass Hysteria
D.Some kind of SkillCost Reduction Passive on Skills (With 3x Skillcost reduction+20%Reduction CP my Howl still costs 2k Stamina)
E.Some kind of Damage reduction passive of like 6%
F.After activating Ulti you can gain max up to 50% ulti WHILE transformed
G.Some kind of 3-6% Weapon Dmg increase because you cant slot Flawl. Dawnbreaker
H.HOWL OF AGONY should under no circumstances be REFLECTABE srlsy...(atm it can be reflected...)


Happy Hunting

cjthibs

I actually had a good bit of fun using WW in Imperial City...but it's basically limited to one kill per transformation because of the reduced damage/spread out nature of fights.

We -really- need some timer love or a toggle.

CP5

Alcast wrote: »

1.WW transforming is very slow and you are just sitting there like a duck waiting to get shot
2.WW Ulti needs 288 Ultipoints(which is completely idiotic) to transform
3.WW Fear has a very slow animation...
4.Cost of Skills is high.. with 3x Skillcost reduction Howl still costs 2k stamina/use
5.You are Target Nr1 due to the fact that you are bigger than anyone else (And with Packleader WHITE color on top of that)
6.Cant charge WW ulti while you are transformed...
7.Cooldown of feeding on an enemy is annoying.

Would be nice if:

A.WW transformation is INSTANT or that you take 50% less dmg during the slow transformation
B.WW Ulti cost set down to 200
C.WW Fear is Instant Like Mass Hysteria
D.Some kind of SkillCost Reduction Passive on Skills (With 3x Skillcost reduction+20%Reduction CP my Howl still costs 2k Stamina)
E.Some kind of Damage reduction passive of like 6%
F.After activating Ulti you can gain max up to 50% ulti WHILE transformed
G.Some kind of 3-6% Weapon Dmg increase because you cant slot Flawl. Dawnbreaker
H.HOWL OF AGONY should under no circumstances be REFLECTABE srlsy...(atm it can be reflected...)


Happy Hunting

But you do! From what I recall seeing months ago the passive armor buff you get in wolf form is roughly a 15 damage reduction. That power!

Lefty_Lucy

There are some good suggestions in this thread, but I would like to take the time to highlight the two most important changes that should be made to Werewolf in order to facilitate enjoyable and successful combat while transformed.


Issue #1 - Difficulty of re-transformation

As someone who enjoys to PvP in Werewolf form, I have always been very disappointed with the difficulty of getting back into Werewolf form once I de-transform. I spend a lot of time fighting my opponents in human form, saving up for my transformation. I'm constantly devouring and pouncing to increase my duration in Werewolf form, because I know that once I de-transform, I have to start back at 0 ultimate and spend another large chunk of time saving my ultimate in order to get back into Werewolf form.

It is this difficulty of re-transformation that has forced me into the Pack Leader morph, just so I have one more method of prolonging the inevitable de-transformation.

This also makes me very envious of Vampires, who get to make use of their vampire skills and passives 24/7. I would gladly accept increased damage to fighter's guild abilities and poison damage if only I could maintain Werewolf combat reliably.

Furthermore, it's very disappointing having to save up enough ultimate to use three Dawnbreakers (which would undoubtedly end most of my PvP fights) before I get to transform into Werewolf.

Proposed solution to issue #1: Allow ultimate generation while in Werewolf form.

Reducing the difficulty of re-transformation can be done a number of ways, but my preferred option is allowing players to generate ultimate while in Werewolf form. There was a nice suggestion earlier in this thread about capping the available ultimate gain while in Werewolf form, and I would gladly take that over having 0 ultimate up de-transformation.

However, I honestly don't see the big issue with allowing us to generate ultimate without restriction in Werewolf form. Why not let us generate enough ultimate in Werewolf form to re-transform immediately? The de-transformation and re-transformation animations will leave us vulnerable anyway, so doing this will still be a risk. In PvP, I die a lot during my de-transformation (almost every time) because I'm a sitting duck, but at least with ultimate generation in Werewolf form, I can respawn and get back on the field as a hairy beast.



Issue #2 - Cost of Werewolf skills

Unlike problem #1, this one doesn't require a lot of explanation. @Telel made an excellent point above which I would like to reiterate. The cost of Werewolf abilities are simply outrageous when compared to other abilities. This imbalance should be addressed.

With this new update, we can enjoy lower costs on stamina morphs for class abilities, so why not extend that over to Werewolf abilities? It makes absolutely no sense to me why my Unstable Flame should cost less than 300 stamina, but Claws of Anguish costs around 2000!

This has always been an issue, but with the decrease to damage in PvP, Werewolf combat is extremely taxing on our stamina pools.

Proposed solution to issue #2: Reduce the cost of Werewolf abilities, just like the reduction to Stamina-based class abilities.



As I mentioned earlier, there are a lot of nice suggestions in this thread, along with some good conversation about the issues with Werewolf.

I'm tagging some mods with some hope that we receive a response to this thread!

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GaryA

draeganb16_ESO

Telel wrote: »

4) Something needs to be done ot make the Alpha morph more useful, especially in PVP. Due to the fast paces of the fights there's usually little time to do heavy attacks, and any time gained is usually done so through use of devour and pouncing. This makes the berserker the go to morph even when there are several of us running in a pack at once, especially due to the difficult of pulling off effective group transformations.

a) Have the alpha morph further boost regeneration, or cause its various howls to also proc a heal for any werewolves nearby?
b) Make this morph immune to stuns, while leaving the berserker morph vulnerable to them.

Your idea about the heavy attack being hard to place for extra time is a bit false, you can make fast heavy attack by canceling the animation with a skill. I take less than a second to achieve that. I know that WW skills are expensive and that why you have to run with a certain DPS cycle like :

Light attack(to make the target bleed)>>>Heavy Attack>>>Skill (to cancel)>>>Heavy Attack>>>Skill (to cancel)>>>Light Attack (to refresh bleeding)>>>Light attack (just to wait for stamina to regen)>>>Heavy attack (when enough stamina)>>>Skill>>>etc

If you're fast enough to chain your cancelled heavy attacks, you can finish a fight with more timer than before the fight.

I hope you catch the idea. It will help you a lots of PVP or PVE situtations

dsalter

i made a thread that maybe we can use sets speicificly designed for both werewolves and vampires to alter skill to make thme more of a play style rather than a utility tree. since after all they ARE factions, just like fighters guild or mages guild.

THIS LINK

Khamira

At first I want to say that I tried @Lefty_Lucy 's Werewolf build on PTS and... IT'S AMAZING! Really! I was very suprised that I won't die all the time, and while my Weapon Damage was lower than my Live ~2700, rage-spamming my attacks still deal decent damage.

In PvP, I've encountered few funny things. People still think that WW is weak, so they're rushing at me 1v1. First time, I was ganked by some heavy armor tank DK with Board. Normally in situations like that I panic and die. This time I've almost killed him like 3 times, and he won by running around obstacles and waiting when I detransform. Almost like Tank DK... I've felt very powerful...

Second time, some blue guy saw me and he tried to chase me. When I transformed, he used poison arrow on me. My Wolfie? Nothing! Maybe I took some dmg, but at the end he was lying on the floor, being delicious.

Of course I've died a lot. Especially when pulling 10 mobs and this flag-Xyvkyn boss on me. Or jumping in the middle of organised guild and trying to fear them. Or standing near Blues spawning piont taking all arrows to the knee.

Of course that wasn't full Lefty's build, but nice thing is that to achieve that result, the only thing I need to do is change my armor set. And only that. So I can still be PVE DPS Hunding/Morag/Shadow Walker when running dungeons, and be able to do something useful as a WW.

So, my ideas to improve Wolfies:

1) Transformation time. When transforming into Werewolf we should have some kind of god-mode. Dying before you could do anything is annoying. Transformation time is ok, but you should be invincible while doing it. After that they can kill you And while de-transforming, we could leave thing as they are (You're out of berserk mode, so you're a weak human).

So from "lore" point of view - when transforming - no damage, bacause you're entering beast mode, you're fearsome, wild creature etc etc. No one can kill you. When detransforming - you're loosing your beast powers, you're exhausted, tired, and vunerable. So things are more or less balanced.

2) When I'm in WW form, the only thing that I'm thinking about almost ALL THE TIME is that I must devour, devour, devour. And clap my hands. Not running, not chasing someone, not "hunting" and searching for opponents. Only Nom Nom Nom. And Clap Clap Clap. Especially annoying when someone killed you and you want to go back. And you run, run, run, bam, re-transform, and that's all. My solutions are:
a) Longer timer. Easiest to implement. Even while you haven't eat anyone for a long time, you can still get back to previous bar state by devouring "in advance".
b) While on battlefield you "smell blood" and your wild instincts won't allow you to loose your adrenaline. I.e. timer won't go down when you're attacking someone. And as it is now, while someone is attacking (And annoying) you. Detransforming while in the middle of a fight is stupid.

Personally I think that option b) is the best. So when you're transformed, attacking someone and taking damage prolonges your time as WW. You begin do detransform when you're calming down, you have nothing to hunt, every enemy is dead. And when you encounter another enemy, you're pumping yourself again.

3) Ultimate gain. This point might be needles if two previous ideas will be implemented, but being unable to gain ultimate while in WW form ends in endless running and spamming light attacks in human form ONLY to gain this big amount of Ult points. So I should be able to be in WW form as long as I want and there is some action near me, or I should be able to reenter my WW form more often (By gaining Ult faster and/or in WW form).

4) I've almost forgot about that xD So, the most annoying thing while devouring corpses is that I must wait some time, standing, doing nothing useful, then when I'm probably able to feed, I need to find this "sweet spot" where I CAN devour anything, then I need to adjust my cursor position, because I've moved it for about 3 milimeters in unknow direction. When I finally find the spot and I'm able to press [x], I can gain my waisted time + 3 additional seconds, before doing it again. And then someone interrupts me and I must fight back or do this whole "find the spot" minigame again. Or enemy that I wanted to eat just disapears, leaving me with devouring animation and no additional time gained.

So, Werewolfs should be able to devour more easily. Maybe just standing on corpse for 1 second should activate devouring or anything, I dunno...

Besides that I think that they're in a good state. We'll see if they need more buffs when my or others suggestiong get implemented.

dsalter

Khamira wrote: »

At first I want to say that I tried @Lefty_Lucy 's Werewolf build on PTS and... IT'S AMAZING! Really! I was very suprised that I won't die all the time, and while my Weapon Damage was lower than my Live ~2700, rage-spamming my attacks still deal decent damage.

In PvP, I've encountered few funny things. People still think that WW is weak, so they're rushing at me 1v1. First time, I was ganked by some heavy armor tank DK with Board. Normally in situations like that I panic and die. This time I've almost killed him like 3 times, and he won by running around obstacles and waiting when I detransform. Almost like Tank DK... I've felt very powerful...

Second time, some blue guy saw me and he tried to chase me. When I transformed, he used poison arrow on me. My Wolfie? Nothing! Maybe I took some dmg, but at the end he was lying on the floor, being delicious.

Of course I've died a lot. Especially when pulling 10 mobs and this flag-Xyvkyn boss on me. Or jumping in the middle of organised guild and trying to fear them. Or standing near Blues spawning piont taking all arrows to the knee.

Of course that wasn't full Lefty's build, but nice thing is that to achieve that result, the only thing I need to do is change my armor set. And only that. So I can still be PVE DPS Hunding/Morag/Shadow Walker when running dungeons, and be able to do something useful as a WW.

So, my ideas to improve Wolfies:

1) Transformation time. When transforming into Werewolf we should have some kind of god-mode. Dying before you could do anything is annoying. Transformation time is ok, but you should be invincible while doing it. After that they can kill you And while de-transforming, we could leave thing as they are (You're out of berserk mode, so you're a weak human).

So from "lore" point of view - when transforming - no damage, bacause you're entering beast mode, you're fearsome, wild creature etc etc. No one can kill you. When detransforming - you're loosing your beast powers, you're exhausted, tired, and vunerable. So things are more or less balanced.

2) When I'm in WW form, the only thing that I'm thinking about almost ALL THE TIME is that I must devour, devour, devour. And clap my hands. Not running, not chasing someone, not "hunting" and searching for opponents. Only Nom Nom Nom. And Clap Clap Clap. Especially annoying when someone killed you and you want to go back. And you run, run, run, bam, re-transform, and that's all. My solutions are:
a) Longer timer. Easiest to implement. Even while you haven't eat anyone for a long time, you can still get back to previous bar state by devouring "in advance".
b) While on battlefield you "smell blood" and your wild instincts won't allow you to loose your adrenaline. I.e. timer won't go down when you're attacking someone. And as it is now, while someone is attacking (And annoying) you. Detransforming while in the middle of a fight is stupid.

Personally I think that option b) is the best. So when you're transformed, attacking someone and taking damage prolonges your time as WW. You begin do detransform when you're calming down, you have nothing to hunt, every enemy is dead. And when you encounter another enemy, you're pumping yourself again.

3) Ultimate gain. This point might be needles if two previous ideas will be implemented, but being unable to gain ultimate while in WW form ends in endless running and spamming light attacks in human form ONLY to gain this big amount of Ult points. So I should be able to be in WW form as long as I want and there is some action near me, or I should be able to reenter my WW form more often (By gaining Ult faster and/or in WW form).

4) I've almost forgot about that xD So, the most annoying thing while devouring corpses is that I must wait some time, standing, doing nothing useful, then when I'm probably able to feed, I need to find this "sweet spot" where I CAN devour anything, then I need to adjust my cursor position, because I've moved it for about 3 milimeters in unknow direction. When I finally find the spot and I'm able to press [x], I can gain my waisted time + 3 additional seconds, before doing it again. And then someone interrupts me and I must fight back or do this whole "find the spot" minigame again. Or enemy that I wanted to eat just disapears, leaving me with devouring animation and no additional time gained.

So, Werewolfs should be able to devour more easily. Maybe just standing on corpse for 1 second should activate devouring or anything, I dunno...

Besides that I think that they're in a good state. We'll see if they need more buffs when my or others suggestiong get implemented.

devour needs a faster animation to, a quick bite and carry on sort of thing

Chrlynsch

-Cost of skills is an issue, this would be fine, if we had increases stamina regeneration in form.... we don't so it doesn't make sense as is.

-Devour takes too long... players rezz too quickly and npc despawn way to fast, one sec or less

-Fear needs to be instant cast, not one sec

-Transformation could be a little faster

-Time could be a little longer

Chrlynsch

Prothwata wrote: »

-Cost of skills is an issue, this would be fine, if we had increases stamina regeneration in form.... we don't so it doesn't make sense as is.

-Devour takes too long... players rezz too quickly and npc despawn way to fast, one sec or less

-Fear needs to be instant cast, not one sec

-Transformation could be a little faster

-Time could be a little longer

looks like transformation is faster

Telel

During ESO live they mentioned werewolf getting an additional armor and spell resistance bonus which can equal an additional 15% mitigation.

However it was unclear if that was the current bonus we already have, something they added, or something coming in the update they'll put out on PTS shortly.

Telel sadly has no time to compare things right now but can someone confirm that the resistance bonus is the same on both live and PTS?

Alcast

If they do not increase the timer, we will have a HUGE issue staying in WW...thats my biggest concern atm

Ace_SiN

CP5 wrote: »

Also, does anyone use brutal pounce at all?

I use it. Not because it's so much better, but because I never have timer issues in PvP. So it's more like a "meh why not" type of choice for me. If anything it helps me get a NB out of cloak if he decides to cloak while I'm mid jump. In fact, I think the extra 3 secs on hit is more than enough extra time(for pvp). Generally in PvP I either kill or be killed before I ever have a chance run out of time(1v1 or 1vX, doesn't matter which scenario). If I don't get killed, then I'm usually willingly exiting the form because it's suicide not to.

Ace_SiN

Prothwata wrote: »

-Cost of skills is an issue, this would be fine, if we had increases stamina regeneration in form.... we don't so it doesn't make sense as is.

-Devour takes too long... players rezz too quickly and npc despawn way to fast, one sec or less

-Fear needs to be instant cast, not one sec

^These are the major issues left and honestly how I would order them(from most important to least). We could use more armor mitigation, but they are buffing that. I would add that Devour should give stamina as well.

The skill costs are just insane. I was semi tolerable of it when I was able to 1 shot people in PvP, but that's no longer the case on the PTS. Our skills should be brought down similar to weapon skill costs.


@ OP

I don't agree with stun immunity. I think leaving the default Break Free cost as is would be fine if ZOS lowered the cost of ALL of our abilities. Both of those, as it stands currently, become just too much to manage though.

Ace_SiN

*delete*

Alcast

Dont forget to send Feedback on PTS otherwise they will never ever consider chaning stuff

trimsic_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

I would like to add something i've noticed on live but hasn't changed on pts. Werewolves seem to be heavily focused on heavy attacks, not only for the pack leader time regen but also for to maintain their stamina. Having their primary stamina management tool on a long charge up and requiring melee range makes it difficult to sustain their expensive skills and nowhere in their tree do they have a skill cost reduction passive, just an observation.

Also, does anyone use brutal pounce at all?

If these changes were in place in the game, I would consider playing my WW again.

Jar_Ek

The biggest issue with this change is that it pushes you towards werewolf as both ultimates which is a massive issue.
If the concern is about the fact that everyone is a werewolf or a vampire, then introduce a new skill line for pure races to be able to get, such as Knights of Srendarr. Thismcould have passives that offset the werewolf and vampire ones and some actives - but with no downside they would be weaker. Alternatively (and easier to implement) would be change a fighter's guild passive to provide a regen stamina and health bonus if you are not supernaturally afflicted ( maybe skilled hunter could be added to bounty hunter or visa versa), called blessing of Akatosh for example.

CP5

Jar_Ek wrote: »

The biggest issue with this change is that it pushes you towards werewolf as both ultimates which is a massive issue.
If the concern is about the fact that everyone is a werewolf or a vampire, then introduce a new skill line for pure races to be able to get, such as Knights of Srendarr. Thismcould have passives that offset the werewolf and vampire ones and some actives - but with no downside they would be weaker. Alternatively (and easier to implement) would be change a fighter's guild passive to provide a regen stamina and health bonus if you are not supernaturally afflicted ( maybe skilled hunter could be added to bounty hunter or visa versa), called blessing of Akatosh for example.

Regardless of 'what' there needs to be incentive to stay normal. If ww's and vamps had a game play related drawback, not a weakness that can be countered, then it may be more of a choice.

Alcast

I would be totally fine with additional weakness in Human form but get more beneficial passives in Human form...not only the 15% regen while ulti slotted.

Weakness:
25% inc poison dmg
-25% magicka rec (for example)
Fighters Guild abilities do 33% inc dmg in Human form and 100% in WW form

Strengths:
While Ulti Slotted 15% Inc Stam Rec and 6% Inc Weapon dmg (to counter Flawl Dawnbr a bit AND a Human infected with WW should be stronger than the usual Human)
10% Inc Spell/Armor Resistances
25% Increased Detection radius to their improved Hunting skills

And in addition, the WW skill Roar is still kinda crap. The skill says "INSTANT" but the fear actually starts after 1s of the animation unlike the instant Mass Hysteria fear.

asteldian

I really would like to see WW ulti grant passive damage increase as without it, WW suffers from the most basic flaw - stamina users use Flawless for damage boost and need it to keep competitve, WW is essentially a stamina build ailment, yet to make use of it you must lose Flawless. This is a key part of preventing WW being nothing more than a novelty.
As a stamina user you lose 8% damage increase and the dps from meteor to change into a WW which then fails to make up for the dps loss.
This is the view from a pve perspective, but holds some relevance to PvP too.

Alcast

Yet there are so many Vampires in Cyrodiil but i rarely(well more like NEVER) see ANY transformed WW, that already speaks for the "usefulness" of WWs atm...

Xsorus

Should make werewolf work like overload for sorcs, with how long you can stay in it based on how much ultimate ya got.

Alcast

Xsorus wrote: »

Should make werewolf work like overload for sorcs, with how long you can stay in it based on how much ultimate ya got.

Good pont, that would also eliminate the 30s timer problem which is now too low due to the longer fights....

Alucardo

I gave up my Lycanthropy because I was jealous that Vampires could reap all their benefits without the need of slotting Ultimates (which I don't mind too much) and the fact they are always Vampires. Being a Werewolf does not feel like being a Werewolf, if that makes any sense. You're a normal human with a spell that turns you into a wolf, nothing more. To stay in form is a total pain, and sometimes raises my blood level when I'm looking around for things to sustain me, or taking damage because I'm spending 5 minutes devouring something. If you try to run off before the animation is completely finished, it won't count and you need to start over. This is a huge issue.. it takes too long. I rolled a Werewolf on my sorcerer for the 15% cheaper Ultimate passive. It still costs me 255 to transform.. that's nuts. I'd rather just use Overload - it's just as powerful and costs MUCH less. With the know-how you can even keep the ultimate up for longer while using it. Werewolves should work this way.

tl;dr; Lycanthropy feels more like a burden than a blessing.

Jar_Ek

Lots of good ideas here, esp passives with ultimate equipped.
With regards to an overload style toggle - the easiest implementation would be to use ultimate for skills and to regain ultimate from the current timer increase passives, so devour, taking damage, etc. Potentially there could also be a ult over time cost.