The real future of PvE tanking, without hyperbole.

OzJohnD

25 man raids require 2 tanks ...


.. oh sorry, wrong game

Attorneyatlawl

capricorn152245ub17_ESO wrote: »

While you are correct about Path of Darkness ticking on the half second, and where I would expect this would normally proc SA, on the PTS I have been unable to get it to proc SA. In fact, the only persistent AoE I have successfully used to proc SA is Caltrops amongst those tested (Veil of Blades, Poison Mist, Scalding Rune, Degenerate/Structured Entropy, Soul Tether). The initial hit if the ability has one has the chance to proc, but the prolonged AoE seemingly does not. So it would seem you must expend a fair bit of stamina to have a good shot at getting some back with SA, however without significant numbers of mobs to proc SA, and the low return rate, it seems like a zero sum game since you need more stamina with more mobs, or won't get enough return with too few.

Hmmm... I'll test this more extensively tomorrow. It might have been changed to go by the same way Elemental Drain procs work, only working on the first hit of the dot (with one proc per target (or chance, in this case, per)) . The new item sets on PTS and other balance changes have made the concern on tanking in general pan out to be very little in practical change, which is why I had kept talking about the math as to why it wasn't worth panicking over before the patch had even hit the test server.

The adjustments have made the tornado of posts claiming a game-ending and massive difficulty increase to where most couldn't even manage it (as witnessed in the extremely lengthy complaint thread that was trucking from before the patch had even hit PTS) a non sequitur, and even the block cost/stam regen changes alone, since it looked likeliest this would turn out to be the case at that time, made me feel that before trying it. I'd say I hope this demonstrated to newer MMO players why reserving judgement is usually the smartest course of action before planned changes hit a test server prior to even being brought live, but... that's like saying you hope that it might stop raining forever after a tornado happened : it's like the weather in that regard. It's just going to happen .

mips_winnt

@Attorneyatlawl .

You've posted some very interesting and thoughtful analysis and ideas in this thread, as one MMO player that's always been interested in the finer points of the "art" of tanking it's much appreciated and I look forward to giving some of your ideas a whirl.

Keep up the good work.

hrothbern

capricorn152245ub17_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Add in one Stamina Cost Reduction glyph (198 tooltip on PTS, 200 on live) and the effective cost as a heavy armor tank goes down to a scant 2353, minus the automatic 840 restored based on that stamina pool (not a high one, even) making the effective cost just over 1500 per use. Siphoning attacks on the PTS has a moderate flat value, tooltipping for 958 Magicka and Stamina gained for each basic attack (including a near-instant cycle of light-hitting and immediately pressing block again) at a low magicka cost, and as @ZOS_GinaBruno clarified (I think it was her... at least) for those who didn't see it in the patch notes, it is no longer a toggle: it's a buff that you cast like any other and therefore doesn't need to be on both bars. The 10%-chance portion should scale on your stats, in my opinion, but currently is set at a 10% chance of restoring 1916 magicka and stamina. The Nightblade class has a skill in the Shadow line called Path of Darkness pre-morph, which turns into Twisting or Refreshing Path. This skill ticks every half a second in a large aoe, and has a base duration of 11.5 seconds. It is an ideal candidate to use to make sure your Siphoning Attacks cast pays off, to say the least .

While you are correct about Path of Darkness ticking on the half second, and where I would expect this would normally proc SA, on the PTS I have been unable to get it to proc SA. In fact, the only persistent AoE I have successfully used to proc SA is Caltrops amongst those tested (Veil of Blades, Poison Mist, Scalding Rune, Degenerate/Structured Entropy, Soul Tether). The initial hit if the ability has one has the chance to proc, but the prolonged AoE seemingly does not. So it would seem you must expend a fair bit of stamina to have a good shot at getting some back with SA, however without significant numbers of mobs to proc SA, and the low return rate, it seems like a zero sum game since you need more stamina with more mobs, or won't get enough return with too few.

The WEIRD thing is that a whole class line, SIPHONING, is threatened to become OBSOLETE, because an ENDGAME PVP ALLIANCE ABILITY CALTROPS was causing infinite resources......

The root cause and root solution is to change the proc for Path and Caltrops only to happen on the first hit, like so many other abilities.
That leaves siphoning as class line whole for low level NB in PVE up to end game NB.

dodgehopper_ESO

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl

I'm not afraid of the Math Meta changes with this... I'm afraid of the Player Belief Meta.


Templar tanks should be fine. If we can get people to admit they can tank now

My problem is that I'm going to be drafted to play heal/support more than ever. Templars have too many skills that give STA to other people

I've been using bubbles and ground STA regen circle forever (and blazing spear for a AOE + STA grab for my STA DPS buddies). Since i'm a Hybrid Templar, I've tended to use the undaunted taunt to keep pressure off my STA anyway.

I'm always hearing that templars can't tank now.. and that is crap. But I fear we are entering an age of Templars should be supporting the "real tank" DK... more than ever because of our awesome support tools.

This concerns me as well.

Azurulia

I'm not to worried for my tank. While I may just be some scrubby low level noob, like another mentioned in the thread, tank players have survived much worse tanking nerfs than this in other games and managed.It will just be a matter of working around the mechanic changes and not being quite as lazy with resource management and block timing.

Oh, and stam pots. Those will go a long way, too.

Attorneyatlawl

Azurulia wrote: »

I'm not to worried for my tank. While I may just be some scrubby low level noob, like another mentioned in the thread, tank players have survived much worse tanking nerfs than this in other games and managed.It will just be a matter of working around the mechanic changes and not being quite as lazy with resource management and block timing.

Oh, and stam pots. Those will go a long way, too.

mips_winnt wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl .

You've posted some very interesting and thoughtful analysis and ideas in this thread, as one MMO player that's always been interested in the finer points of the "art" of tanking it's much appreciated and I look forward to giving some of your ideas a whirl.

Keep up the good work.

Ditto.