Why are they buffing bubble builds? That's crazy.

technohic

Teargrants wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

=
I know on my Sorc with @300 CP and 75 points in Bastion I'm getting a 13K hardened ward and I regularly have stamina users 1-shot this with wrecking blow forcing me to reapply it. I'm only at ~29K Magicka however.=

OH THE HUMANITY. You mean to tell me the biggest damage skill in the game...depletes your...ward? And then you have to reapply it? Oh sweet salty moses. The horror.

This is exactly the problem.

Player 1 is spec'd for maximum damage. Player 2 is spec'd for maximum defense.

Player 1 hits player 2 as hard as possible ....and player 2 loses NO HEALTH.

So much WTF that I don't even know where to begin.


You're entire mindset is skewed. You talk about your ward, not you....but your ward being 1-shot.

I don't even.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically or cherry-pick that one statement, but my goodness that really gets right to the point of what I'm talking about.

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Wards are an extension of health that simply functions proactively by casting before damage rather than reactively after damage, like GDB.

Do you make the same melodramatic laments when you snipe a Templar and he just BOLs to full? It's the same thing.

They're ok with that because that stealth attack will crit the templar and they will already have a second big hit already on the way by the time the Templar feels it and with the slight delay in BOL from cast to heal landing, that templar will have to be really on it to even get BOL off before the instagib.

So I guess the reality is; so long as someone can instagib.

EDIT: From non-stealth, a templar cant BOL while KDed and feared as well as rooted at the same time or anything that bugs out CC break as well. Need to nerf what little that shield will do for a sorc in that situation to support the unstoppable melee *** incoming.

Teargrants

olemanwinter wrote: »

smacx250 wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

smacx250 wrote: »

I think you've got things backwards. For a simple example, the total damage to kill a "bubble build" today that has say 20K heath and 20K total shields, is roughy 40K damage to get through. After the change, it is effectively 40K health and 20K total shields, for a total of 60K damage to kill. That means that to kill that player it will take about 50% more damage after the change than now. Now compare that to a player that has 30K health today, and effectively 60K health after the change. It will now take 60K damage instead of 30K damage to kill - 100% more damage to kill that player. Clearly players that rely on health instead of shields are going to be buffed by the upcoming change, and not the "bubble builds".

You are writing as if people never reapply their wards and bubbles. lol

It is even worse in that case, as shields are being nerfed and health buffed. The more one relies on shields the worse it will be. Do the same math with the shield being re-applied once, twice, etc. For example:

Bubble build: 20K health, 20K shields applied twice: 60K damage to get through now. After patch, effective 40K health + 20K shields applied twice = 80K damage to get through. That is 33% more damage to kill after the change.

Health + mitigation build: Same calc as before, and 100% more damage to get through after the change.

This is certainly no buff to "bubble builds". The more shield stacking and shield re-applications involved, the worse this patch becomes.

That's entirely nonsensical. Shields are being nerfed...but so is damage. They will remain up as long (or nearly as long) as before and between applications you will be twice as difficult to kill. You will have twice as much time to reapply a ward before dying. You will be able to take twice as much damage when you're unprepared before applying the shields.

And your numbers are all wrong. You have health and shields at a 1 to 1 ratio or a 2 to 1 ratio. Most players running the types of builds I'm talking about achieve FAR FAR MORE shield strength than their health.

But I'm pretty much done going back and forth with you. We are both just repeating ourselves which is boring and repetitive....like playing against your bubble build. CYA

You're the one being nonsensical, first off current Cyrodiil debuff is -20% damage, -15% shields. Changing it to -50% dmg, -50% shields in 1.7 reduces shields by 5% in comparison to dmg. The effective increase to health pools that you whine so loudly about has nothing to do with shields, it affects everyone, and in fact affects the non shield stacking high health builds most beneficially because they're already putting more into health.

Second, another aspect that you blatantly ignore is that healing ward, the ward that sorcs who aren't me rely on to survive (as their only heal) is being double nerfed in 1.7. On top of the additional 35% reduction to shields, there will be the 50% reduction to healing (30% more than currently). As you should know, the heal from healing ward is dependant on the ward's size. Hence the ward is nerfed 35% which nerfs the heal 35%, and healing being nerfed 30% brings the nerfed heal down even further. So please do explain how this drastic heal nerf for shield stacking builds makes them stronger relative to others whose heals are not being double nerfed.

Leandor

Ezareth wrote: »

From stealth crits receive a larger modifier so your math could be off. (this exact numbers I don't know since I'm a stamina newb).

Are you using Lethal Arrow? Damage done to shield can be reduced through the champion passives so if you're using lethal it is poison damage and thus could be reduced by another 10-15% depending on their investment and CP.

@Ezareth thanks for taking the time
I did not take into consideration the stealth increase, but shouldn't that also increase non crit damage? AFAIK, it is just stated that "damage is increased from stealth". But even if not, between 1.7 and 2.6 multiplier, the gap is too big anyways, I think.

In regards to the second part, I do use focused aim, as written in initial post:

Leandor wrote: »

Now this is not something extraordinary, but a regular occurrence. I would go so far as to say that I never have seen a higher number on shields. I also use focused aim instead of lethal arrow, in order to eliminate nirnhoned influence.

Joy_Division

olemanwinter wrote: »

Continuing to reply to a bunch of people at once....

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

@olemanwinter Name a single class skill (beside Hardened Ward) that can keep a sorc alive during a fight in PVP. Any stam build only has to hit my 14k shield twice and its gone, when its gone I have no mitigation because of the way armor penetration currently works. But yeah, two hits is way to much for my shield, sorcs should die on the first hit.

I don't understand. Why is it all or nothing with Sorcs? Either they are invincible or they melt like butter!
I'm not arguing for a removal of Hardened Ward, or even shield stacking. I'm simply stating that they DON'T NEED A BUFF!
And making it so you can always apply it, never die before or between ward applications is a huge buff.

Finally, I agree that Sorc is a weak class OUTSIDE Of this build, however that doesn't change the fact that the build is OP and out of balance and ridiculous. It's not my fault that Sorc is a messed up class with only 1 real viable PvP build.

But I'm not going to remain silent while changes based on good intentions have unforeseen negative consequences resulting in a god-mode build becoming more prevalent....when I do foresee those consequences in advance.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

1. Shield are getting nerfed by 35%, damage by 30% only. So yes, shields are weaker
2. I agree that the upcoming changes are extremely stupid. I don't want them..... leave the game as it is right now, we don't want mitigated damage in pvp. We don't want infinite fight. If I burst a target out of stealth, I want it to be dead and if my enemy does a mistake, I want him to be dead.

This will no longer be possible tough.

Has no place in an MMO IMHO.

AND NEITHER does "Invincibility" or 1vX in perpetude.

I have no problem with extending TTK...unless during that extension someone is able to activate an invincible build!

What do you think should happen when someone who is built for maximum damage encounters someone who is built for maximum defense? As it stands now, when these two people meet it's entirely conditional on the circumstances. If the defender is prepared ...the MAXIMUM damage in the game is effectively 100% negated and ignored. If the defender is not prepared he dies instantly. It makes sense that BOTH the people in that scenario would be annoyed and find the game unbalanced.

The max burst DPS player is annoyed to encounter a build that can take the highest single strike damage in the game without even losing any health. The defensive player is annoyed that when he's not prepared he dies before he can even react.

I understand and appreciate both sides....but this change is a slap in the face to only 1 side. If it's already difficult to solo kill (and by difficult I mean out-of-balance) to kill a shield stacking Sorc when they are prepared, and now you can't kill them when they are unprepared FAST ENOUGH that they can't get prepared after engagement.....then how are you supposed to kill them?

I just find it funny that people say getting 1-shotted has "No place in an mmo" but they think defensive builds that require 3, 4, 5 or more players to defeat as a matter of course...do have a place in an mmo. That's absurd.

There is a lot of bold there. You are right, there shouldn't be invincibility. And there isn't. You are equating shields with invincibility and that's just crazy.

For some reason on this forum shields and shield stacking = sorcs as if they are the only class with shields. They aren't. Templars and DKs are also shield spammers and nobody complains about their shields. Nobody would complain about sorc shields either, except it is the mobility they have combined with their shields that make them annoying to kill. You might not like the mechanics of shields and the passive form of defense it offers, but a stationary shield stacker isn't that hard to kill.

What should happen when max damage Vs. max defense is as you described: whoever gets the initiative should have enough of an advantage to win ... provided they don't make a mistake. I hate insta-dying as per my original reply. Has no part in such a scenario. Now for some reason you say that is also a problem in your third paragraph when you said that was the way ESO should work in the original message I replied to. So which is it?

Believe or not, the best sorcs do die. And I suspect they will be easier to kill rather than harder as you think. They have 3 main defenses. Hardened ward which will be relatively weaker (albeit slightly), healing ward which will get a double nerf, and bolt escape, which I getting nerfed (although I dont think the better sorcs will notice it too much as bolting more than 3 times is a panic move). So how is only 1 side losing? Nightblades are taking a lesser nerf to dodgerolling and ... um...your cloak is getting improved. Yeah, 1 side is totally getting screwed.

Ok, a prepared sorc is hard to kill ... and, why is this a bad thing? All you glass cannons just want to insta-gib stuff. And again with sorc sorc sorc sorc. You want to complain about 1.7? Roll a DK.

And, yes, I don't think having dedicated tank builds be able to hold off 3 or 4 people is not necessarily a bad thing. You just want to one shot people and complain about balance when your prey eludes you.

Leandor

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ok, a prepared sorc is hard to kill ... and, why is this a bad thing?

While I have no intend to partake in that discussion, I have to answer this one: because it takes the sorcerer less time to "get prepared" than the travel time of the second Snipe.

Vahrokh

... and in the threads about IC and TV stones they say PVEers are those who complain????

I HAVE SO MUCH ENOUGH of a bunch of crybabies going to BUTCHER my PvE gameplay with their nonsensical, ETHERNAL cry nerf threads.

RavenSkylord

olemanwinter wrote: »

Continuing to reply to a bunch of people at once....

I just find it funny that people say getting 1-shotted has "No place in an mmo" but they think defensive builds that require 3, 4, 5 or more players to defeat as a matter of course...do have a place in an mmo. That's absurd.

With a comment like this I am wondering if you are really familiar with the mechanics of roles in an MMO, now as it seems the largest complaint is in regards to Sorcery, which is not a tanking class, there is more merit. But such a blanket statement is inaccurate, going against a tank should require more players to burn down, it is at its heart the sole purpose of tanking, high defense with low damage output

I_killed_Vivec

Vahrokh wrote: »

... and in the threads about IC and TV stones they say PVEers are those who complain????

I HAVE SO MUCH ENOUGH of a bunch of crybabies going to BUTCHER my PvE gameplay with their nonsensical, ETHERNAL cry nerf threads.

With all the debate about IC I thought I'd take a look at the PvP part of this forum to see what hot topics they're debating...

It was all "exploit this, exploit that", "I can't name the exploiters, but we know who they are", "it's an EP/AD/CD (delete as applicable) exploit", "this build is unfair", "that build is unfair".

Which is a shame because it doesn't reflect my (admittedly low level) experience of running around bashing people - and getting bashed

Can't wait for the first "I hit this PvEer from ambush but he survived my attack and hit back so hard I had to run away - nerf PvE gear now!" thread...

WhiskeyBob

For me the main problem with sorc is not the shield or numbers but the Overload bar abuse. Thanks to this sorcerers can bug themselves a free inner light/bound armor, combine that with Camouflaged Hunter abuse and sorc has 2-3 free passive effects that dont take space on their active bar.

Ezareth

WhiskeyBob wrote: »

For me the main problem with sorc is not the shield or numbers but the Overload bar abuse. Thanks to this sorcerers can bug themselves a free inner light/bound armor, combine that with Camouflaged Hunter abuse and sorc has 2-3 free passive effects that dont take space on their active bar.

From what I've heard you can only use one toggle ability with the overload bar bug which makes sense to me. I'm not sure as I've never used it but Ive heard how to do it described.

WhiskeyBob

Ezareth wrote: »

WhiskeyBob wrote: »

For me the main problem with sorc is not the shield or numbers but the Overload bar abuse. Thanks to this sorcerers can bug themselves a free inner light/bound armor, combine that with Camouflaged Hunter abuse and sorc has 2-3 free passive effects that dont take space on their active bar.

From what I've heard you can only use one toggle ability with the overload bar bug which makes sense to me. I'm not sure as I've never used it but Ive heard how to do it described.

You want to keep inner light on your bar anyway so you bug bound armor. You can also bug Camouflaged Hunter but thats not sorc restricted, yet you can keep it on your overload bar so it wont clutter any of your 2 switch-bars.

gjmgamesub17_ESO

I haven't done much pvp in ESO yet, but I have been a pvp AND a pve player since 1996 across many different MMO's.

Why is everyone complaining about 1v1 situations in a game that is very obviously designed around large group battles?

I'm not a sorc, but if you are out by yourself in pvp in a game that revolves around large group battles then you are doing it wrong and your opinions hold zero merit.

Calls for nerfs based on small scaled fighting in a game designed around large scaled fighting are the fastest way to ruin a game.

Play how it was intended and base your balancing opinions off of that.

danno8

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

I haven't done much pvp in ESO yet, but I have been a pvp AND a pve player since 1996 across many different MMO's.

Why is everyone complaining about 1v1 situations in a game that is very obviously designed around large group battles?

I'm not a sorc, but if you are out by yourself in pvp in a game that revolves around large group battles then you are doing it wrong and your opinions hold zero merit.

Calls for nerfs based on small scaled fighting in a game designed around large scaled fighting are the fastest way to ruin a game.

Play how it was intended and base your balancing opinions off of that.

Because in-between the big battles, there is a huge amount of space where 1v1 and 1vX battles happen all the time.

The points system is designed around large group battles (taking keeps and scrolls and what not) but the keeps are spaced very far apart from each other which creates a lot of opportunities for 1vX.