Why are they buffing bubble builds? That's crazy.

OzJohnD

BUBBLE HEARTH !

Gyudan

Nerfing/Buffing stuff by 50% is not balance.

This is the Combat team at work on Update 7.

Septimus_Magna

@olemanwinter Name a single class skill (beside Hardened Ward) that can keep a sorc alive during a fight in PVP. Any stam build only has to hit my 14k shield twice and its gone, when its gone I have no mitigation because of the way armor penetration currently works. But yeah, two hits is way to much for my shield, sorcs should die on the first hit.

BuggeX

Even if i hat shildstacking Bolt Escapers, This is fine.
I cant kill them, they cant kill me.

But the point wath make shildstack op, wath the @TE forgot to mention about, is Nirnhorned witch also get nerfed "fixed".
So after 1.7 most sorcs will have max arround 10k Spell Ress. 10k is about 17% mitigation. 17% Penetration is not hard to achive.

Leandor

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

The bubble shields themselves are NOT being buffed, but the bubble perma-invincible BUILDS are getting a big buff. Allow me to explain.


Because damage is being reduced by 50% along side the shield reduction of 50%, there is no increased ability to cut through the bubble. Bubble stacking will still be just as effective. Your experience of hitting someone as hard as possible and staring in amazement as it literally does nothing to their health bar is going to remain the same.

However, attacking a bubble build before they have a chance to apply the shields is going to be 50% less effective. Saving your burst and timing it to coincide with the expiration of a bubble is going to be 50% less effective.

You got the wrong information.

Damage will be reduced IF you choose to be "battle leveled" after vr 1.

Sadly, this is completely wrong. Please bear in mind that there are two functions working, one being "battle scaling" which will be the scaling of H/M/S and their regeneration, Spell & Weapon damage, Spell & Physical resistance.

The other on is "Battle Spirit", which is a "buff" that everyone in Cyrodiil gets, battle scaled or not. This "buff" increases your health by 5000 and decreases your healing received, damage dealt and shields by 20% respectively 15% (as of now), which will be increased to 50% in the next update.

So, the damage reduction the OP is referring to will be effective for everyone.

Joy_Division

Dracane wrote: »

1. Shield are getting nerfed by 35%, damage by 30% only. So yes, shields are weaker
2. I agree that the upcoming changes are extremely stupid. I don't want them..... leave the game as it is right now, we don't want mitigated damage in pvp. We don't want infinite fight. If I burst a target out of stealth, I want it to be dead and if my enemy does a mistake, I want him to be dead.

This will no longer be possible tough.

Has no place in an MMO IMHO.

Faulgor

SC0TY999 wrote: »

But this is ZOS logic we're talking about here or rather lack of it, I remember prior to 1.6 being released they mentioned that "all skills etc... will scale off of the highest stat so not to cause confusion" this basically never happened!

Because they never said that?

SC0TY999

Faulgor wrote: »

SC0TY999 wrote: »

But this is ZOS logic we're talking about here or rather lack of it, I remember prior to 1.6 being released they mentioned that "all skills etc... will scale off of the highest stat so not to cause confusion" this basically never happened!

Because they never said that?

Apologies I messed that up!

Copy and pasted from 1.6.5 patch notes
"Synergy abilities now scale off your highest stats that are either stamina or magicka based.
Ultimates and Synergy abilities now always scale of your highest Critical Strike stat instead of just your Spell Critical Strike.
Abilities that cost magicka will now always scale off your magicka, spell damage, and spell critical strike stats.
Abilities that cost stamina will now always scale off your stamina, weapon damage, and weapon critical strike stats."

If what is highlighted in bold is true, why does igneous shield and blazing shield scale from health?

Should they not scale from Magika like Sorcs Hardened Ward?

Kas

it's true that sheild stackers will have more protection against the current tactic of bursting them down quickly when ever without shields.

i don't agree with your overall conclusion, though. where bolt escape previously allow for top resource management to shield stack to and extend where you really had to burst through the bubble downtime, i think that now, it'll mostly be about working through a shield stacker's magicka (or stamina) pool to kill them. this will take about as long as it used to (but now be possible due to less mobility), while the non-shield-using attacker has twice the protection against enemy burst.

on top of that, i think item set-boni that are specifically designed to counter enemy damage sheilds have been annouced some time ago, iirc.

Septimus_Magna

SC0TY999 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

SC0TY999 wrote: »

But this is ZOS logic we're talking about here or rather lack of it, I remember prior to 1.6 being released they mentioned that "all skills etc... will scale off of the highest stat so not to cause confusion" this basically never happened!

Because they never said that?

Apologies I messed that up!

Copy and pasted from 1.6.5 patch notes
"Synergy abilities now scale off your highest stats that are either stamina or magicka based.
Ultimates and Synergy abilities now always scale of your highest Critical Strike stat instead of just your Spell Critical Strike.
Abilities that cost magicka will now always scale off your magicka, spell damage, and spell critical strike stats.
Abilities that cost stamina will now always scale off your stamina, weapon damage, and weapon critical strike stats."

If what is highlighted in bold is true, why does igneous shield and blazing shield scale from health?

Should they not scale from Magika like Sorcs Hardened Ward?

Probably not to ruin the tanky and stamina DK/Templar builds.
Also DKs/Templars have many defensive magicka based skills, maybe a magicka based shield would make them too strong.
Sorcs dont have any defensive abilities besides hardened ward, I think this could be a reason for the difference.

BuggeX

SC0TY999 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

SC0TY999 wrote: »

But this is ZOS logic we're talking about here or rather lack of it, I remember prior to 1.6 being released they mentioned that "all skills etc... will scale off of the highest stat so not to cause confusion" this basically never happened!

Because they never said that?

Apologies I messed that up!

Copy and pasted from 1.6.5 patch notes
"Synergy abilities now scale off your highest stats that are either stamina or magicka based.
Ultimates and Synergy abilities now always scale of your highest Critical Strike stat instead of just your Spell Critical Strike.
Abilities that cost magicka will now always scale off your magicka, spell damage, and spell critical strike stats.
Abilities that cost stamina will now always scale off your stamina, weapon damage, and weapon critical strike stats."

If what is highlighted in bold is true, why does igneous shield and blazing shield scale from health?

Should they not scale from Magika like Sorcs Hardened Ward?

Do you rly want to see a Blocking Magicka DK with a 10k Shild wich also increes his heals by 30%?
I play myself a Magicka DK, but even i, dont want that ignous shild scall with magicka

reften

olemanwinter wrote: »

Because damage is being reduced by 50% along side the shield reduction of 50%, there is no increased ability to cut through the bubble. Bubble stacking will still be just as effective. Your experience of hitting someone as hard as possible and staring in amazement as it literally does nothing to their health bar is going to remain the same.

Nice post, the above is your tl:dr info.

This will also be a huge nerf for NBs. Cause lets face it, we had to drop someone fast before they react or we're toast. Now it's going to take twice as long to drop someone. Long fights bad for NBs, short fights good for the NB.

Zos just made all fights last a lot longer.

Now, I admit, this is really for small scale skirmish style, or 1v1 ganking...PVP, which I don't do too much so I don't really care.

Vis

So correction, bubbles are losing 5‰ relative to dps. Secondly, the key to bubble builds is mobility and or blocking to allow the bubbles to be replenished. Mobility and blocking are both taking massive nerfs.

eliisra

Vis wrote: »

So correction, bubbles are losing 5‰ relative to dps. Secondly, the key to bubble builds is mobility and or blocking to allow the bubbles to be replenished. Mobility and blocking are both taking massive nerfs.

I totally agree. People talk about unkillable shield stackers blah blah, but they miss how it's other ingredients making it possible.

Sorcs will blink out as soon as they get focused, sneezed on or take dmg, than reapply the fricken' shields. That's why they're the hardest class in the game to kill. If they only stood there spamming shields like stupid, they die in a matter of seconds just like all the other glass house builds in 1.6. But Bolt Escape is getting it's second or third nerf.

Some DK's will stack so much block reduction, that Mountain's Blessing, Battle Roar passive and tri-stat potion allows them to keep it up for all eternity. The 1-2 shield they're using isn't the big issue. Its the fact that you have to drain their entire stamina pool before they take dmg.

It's when stacked shields(or strong heals for that matter)gets combined with other powerful defence mechanics, like escape, mobility, perma dodge/block, that you get these builds that just wont *** die lol.

Leandor

Well, I know that the first thing I will try is to get my hands on that shields penetration set. Then I apply for a name change. New name: Bubble good? (the question mark is important, these bracketed words not). Upon finding that the set works, I try to get it changed to an exclamation mark at the end. If the set doesn't work, then I'll get @Ezareth to start a new "nerf sorc awareness campaign".

j/k

Ezareth

I'm a little conflicted on this whole topic.

I know on my Sorc with @300 CP and 75 points in Bastion I'm getting a 13K hardened ward and I regularly have stamina users 1-shot this with wrecking blow forcing me to reapply it. I'm only at ~29K Magicka however.

One my Nightblade in full Legendary gear sporting around 2500 weapon damage I've noticed several sorcs who can eat 2 or even 3 of my wrecking blows without having to recast them. Even at 40K Magicka hardened ward doesnt become *that* much larger than at 29K.

I'm really starting to suspect that a lot of these players are using a combination of exploits and other game mechanics that are unknown to me to reduce damage done to their shields in addition to making them larger. I've never exploited overload, mundus or any of that on my Sorc and I can survive 1 or 2 people spamming attacks on me by standing there spamming shields are long as I'm not hit by a CC ability like wrecking blow/fear etc. If there are 3 people beating on me I have to fall back on retreating and dodge roll as it doesn't matter how fast I spam my shields they kill them and me faster than I can rebuild them.

I fought a sorc I've never played before the other night with 2 other people who were both skilled players and it took us several minutes to kill the sorc. After playing through the fight in my mind I realized what he did was impossible without exploiting.

On questioning whether he was using the Magelight/mundus stone exploit he said that "Everyone was using it" to which I replied that I certainly do not. He went on to explain a host of other exploits out there and it really kind of depressed me. Now the main reason I don't want to play my sorc is I dont want to be compared to or fight these "Demi-god" sorcs out there using every exploit in the book because I can't compete with them without stooping to their level.

All that aside here is some math for you.

Hardened Ward receives a 33% bonus.
Healing Ward receives a (up to) 300% bonus.

These bonuses are directly additive with the Cyrodiil "Nerf debuff" meaning that they can (almost) cancel them out. This is part of the reason we're seeing shields scale better for high CP players relative to damage.

I also suspect (but need to test) that most abilities have a 1.2 second GCD. Damage shields I know only have a 1 second GCD. If this is true then the first thing that would need to be done to balance damage shields is ensure they share the same GCD of every other ability.

Leandor

@Ezareth

Do you also use Bow with your nightblade? If so, have you experienced that the maximum damage of a snipe against a hardened ward is kind of underwhelming? On my (temporarily suspended) nightblade with 2900 weapon damage with bow equipped, I seem to hit unshielded targets from stealth for up to 19k, depending on their armor rating.

Now with the exact same setup from stealth on a warded sorcerer I hit for the exact same amount always, which is currently a bit over 7200. I have maybe 10 CP in the crit damage increase perk (so far went more for direct damage increase over crit damage increase). I don't know from top of my head the exact multiplier for crit, but for sure it is less than 2.6, which is the factor needed to explain the damage difference.

Now this is not something extraordinary, but a regular occurrence. I would go so far as to say that I never have seen a higher number on shields. I also use focused aim instead of lethal arrow, in order to eliminate nirnhoned influence.

What I want to say: Is there a possible side effect of hardened ward that reduces incoming damage before hitting the shield?

Ezareth

Leandor wrote: »

@Ezareth

Do you also use Bow with your nightblade? If so, have you experienced that the maximum damage of a snipe against a hardened ward is kind of underwhelming? On my (temporarily suspended) nightblade with 2900 weapon damage with bow equipped, I seem to hit unshielded targets from stealth for up to 19k, depending on their armor rating.

Now with the exact same setup from stealth on a warded sorcerer I hit for the exact same amount always, which is currently a bit over 7200. I have maybe 10 CP in the crit damage increase perk (so far went more for direct damage increase over crit damage increase). I don't know from top of my head the exact multiplier for crit, but for sure it is less than 2.6, which is the factor needed to explain the damage difference.

Now this is not something extraordinary, but a regular occurrence. I would go so far as to say that I never have seen a higher number on shields. I also use focused aim instead of lethal arrow, in order to eliminate nirnhoned influence.

What I want to say: Is there a possible side effect of hardened ward that reduces incoming damage before hitting the shield?

The issue you're noticing is the fact that shields *can't* be crit.

The only way you'll get a crit on a shield is if your base damage exceeds the value of the shield in which case it will normally (plus you'll hit the player for fully unmitigated damage which is known as the "Bleed" effect).

I don't use the bow though as snipe is a total snoozefest ability to me and the easiest kills in the game for me are NBs using a bow.

danno8

technohic wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

infracanisub17_ESO wrote: »

Lol, OP has a good line of reasoning. Nerfing shields has always hit Templars and DKs harder than Sorcs.

Also the bolt escape nerf will change very little for the good Sorcs. The cost increase in 1.7 vs. Live is only changing if casting >2 BE.

Sorcerers will still have the ability to time strong burst even without Prox Det.

How will the shield nerf affect templars and DKs worse than sorcs? Just curious as I don't play those classes.

I can't speak to the DK shield but the Templar one works as a % of health for the size of the shield, and then deals damage also based on a % of the total damage taken (up to the maximum shield size)

Because there are two nerfs coming, one to shields specifically, and then another separate nerf to damage output both of these nerfs are going to affect Blazing Shield. One on the first part of the shield (shield strength) and the other on the damage the shield does after bursting (total damage nerf)

Blazing Shield already took a hard triple nerf in 1.6 (total health pools are lower thanks to the 1.5 -> 1.1x multiplier for health on all gear/traits etc.., shield strength nerfed by 15% in Cyrodiil, and magicka cost was increased), that this new change may very well be the nail in the coffin for BS.

I have already taken it off my bar in anticipation.

I wonder about biting jabs getting its damage and heal nerfed. I mean, the heal is based off the damage, but does it also get reduced by half?

You are correct about Puncturing Sweep (I assume you mean this morph)

Damage is reduced, which in turn reduces the heal since it is based off the amount of damage, and then the heal is reduced a second time because of the "50% heal specific" nerf.

I really hope they are looking at these kinds of scenarios, or Templars only decent melee skill is going to be dead.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Leandor

Ezareth wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

@Ezareth

Do you also use Bow with your nightblade? If so, have you experienced that the maximum damage of a snipe against a hardened ward is kind of underwhelming? On my (temporarily suspended) nightblade with 2900 weapon damage with bow equipped, I seem to hit unshielded targets from stealth for up to 19k, depending on their armor rating.

Now with the exact same setup from stealth on a warded sorcerer I hit for the exact same amount always, which is currently a bit over 7200. I have maybe 10 CP in the crit damage increase perk (so far went more for direct damage increase over crit damage increase). I don't know from top of my head the exact multiplier for crit, but for sure it is less than 2.6, which is the factor needed to explain the damage difference.

Now this is not something extraordinary, but a regular occurrence. I would go so far as to say that I never have seen a higher number on shields. I also use focused aim instead of lethal arrow, in order to eliminate nirnhoned influence.

What I want to say: Is there a possible side effect of hardened ward that reduces incoming damage before hitting the shield?

The issue you're noticing is the fact that shields *can't* be crit.

The only way you'll get a crit on a shield is if your base damage exceeds the value of the shield in which case it will normally (plus you'll hit the player for fully unmitigated damage which is known as the "Bleed" effect).

I don't use the bow though as snipe is a total snoozefest ability to me and the easiest kills in the game for me are NBs using a bow.

Yeah, I knew that shields can't be crit. But the issue I have is that calculating back from my crit hits on non-shielded targets and using the crit damage multiplier of ~1.7, I should be getting 10-11k hits on shields. This is also what I see on unblocked non crit hits on LA targets.

But the shields get hit for 7.2k.

technohic

danno8 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

infracanisub17_ESO wrote: »

Lol, OP has a good line of reasoning. Nerfing shields has always hit Templars and DKs harder than Sorcs.

Also the bolt escape nerf will change very little for the good Sorcs. The cost increase in 1.7 vs. Live is only changing if casting >2 BE.

Sorcerers will still have the ability to time strong burst even without Prox Det.

How will the shield nerf affect templars and DKs worse than sorcs? Just curious as I don't play those classes.

I can't speak to the DK shield but the Templar one works as a % of health for the size of the shield, and then deals damage also based on a % of the total damage taken (up to the maximum shield size)

Because there are two nerfs coming, one to shields specifically, and then another separate nerf to damage output both of these nerfs are going to affect Blazing Shield. One on the first part of the shield (shield strength) and the other on the damage the shield does after bursting (total damage nerf)

Blazing Shield already took a hard triple nerf in 1.6 (total health pools are lower thanks to the 1.5 -> 1.1x multiplier for health on all gear/traits etc.., shield strength nerfed by 15% in Cyrodiil, and magicka cost was increased), that this new change may very well be the nail in the coffin for BS.

I have already taken it off my bar in anticipation.

I wonder about biting jabs getting its damage and heal nerfed. I mean, the heal is based off the damage, but does it also get reduced by half?

You are correct about Puncturing Sweep (I assume you mean this morph)

Damage is reduced, which in turn reduces the heal since it is based off the amount of damage, and then the heal is reduced a second time because of the "50% heal specific" nerf.

I really hope they are looking at these kinds of scenarios, or Templars only decent melee skill is going to be dead.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Yeah, thats what I am afraid of. Not a lot of main melee magicka damage options for a Templar.

RinaldoGandolphi

I will say this, I have always thought damage shields to be not only a stupid mechanic, but to be flat broken and they will never be fixed.

Its just one of the many ways ZOS botched the game. They had the entire magic school of Alteration and Restoration for defensive based spells, and refused to use them.

Ezareth

Leandor wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

@Ezareth

Do you also use Bow with your nightblade? If so, have you experienced that the maximum damage of a snipe against a hardened ward is kind of underwhelming? On my (temporarily suspended) nightblade with 2900 weapon damage with bow equipped, I seem to hit unshielded targets from stealth for up to 19k, depending on their armor rating.

Now with the exact same setup from stealth on a warded sorcerer I hit for the exact same amount always, which is currently a bit over 7200. I have maybe 10 CP in the crit damage increase perk (so far went more for direct damage increase over crit damage increase). I don't know from top of my head the exact multiplier for crit, but for sure it is less than 2.6, which is the factor needed to explain the damage difference.

Now this is not something extraordinary, but a regular occurrence. I would go so far as to say that I never have seen a higher number on shields. I also use focused aim instead of lethal arrow, in order to eliminate nirnhoned influence.

What I want to say: Is there a possible side effect of hardened ward that reduces incoming damage before hitting the shield?

The issue you're noticing is the fact that shields *can't* be crit.

The only way you'll get a crit on a shield is if your base damage exceeds the value of the shield in which case it will normally (plus you'll hit the player for fully unmitigated damage which is known as the "Bleed" effect).

I don't use the bow though as snipe is a total snoozefest ability to me and the easiest kills in the game for me are NBs using a bow.

Yeah, I knew that shields can't be crit. But the issue I have is that calculating back from my crit hits on non-shielded targets and using the crit damage multiplier of ~1.7, I should be getting 10-11k hits on shields. This is also what I see on unblocked non crit hits on LA targets.

But the shields get hit for 7.2k.

From stealth crits receive a larger modifier so your math could be off. (this exact numbers I don't know since I'm a stamina newb).

Are you using Lethal Arrow? Damage done to shield can be reduced through the champion passives so if you're using lethal it is poison damage and thus could be reduced by another 10-15% depending on their investment and CP.

asteldian

Are they really getting buffed? The shield is nerfed 5% more than damage in comparison to now, healing is nerfed by 50% too.
The reason for Sorcs being so op is due to the shield stacking which enables them to put healing ward on along with their ward for crazy defense and a massive heal which results in a sorc going from nearly dead to full again.
Healing ward has just been double hit because it is a 50% weaker shield which also heals 50% less effectively, that is a huge nerf to it, similar to the Templars Blazing Shield which is double hit by being less strong and doing less damage both due to being weaker and because of 50% less damage.

olemanwinter

I'm going to try to reply to a lot of people at once here.

Mos-De-Atmo wrote: »

Damage reduced by 50%. Shields reduced by 50%.
Hmm, am I missing something? It looks like they are both being reduced at the same rate.

Yes, you're missing the entire rest of my argument past the first sentence or two.

jkemmery wrote: »

This is slightly OT but still relevant I believe. Given the way the abilities in the game are structured, there can never be true parity between the classes.

I think their main problem is their attempt to balance both PvE and PvP together the same way. There is no reason why a skill should necessarily perform the same way in and out of Cyrodiil. Time and time again we have seen things that were perfectly in-line with PvE nerfed and made useless because of abuse in PvP or vise versa.

I think their adjustment of health and damage for PvP zones is a move in the right direction from the standpoint of beginning to treat the zones differently...but they need to expand beyond that and address the skills and classes individually the same way. They should look to the Guild Wars franchise for an example in this specific regard.

smacx250 wrote: »

I think you've got things backwards. For a simple example, the total damage to kill a "bubble build" today that has say 20K heath and 20K total shields, is roughy 40K damage to get through. After the change, it is effectively 40K health and 20K total shields, for a total of 60K damage to kill. That means that to kill that player it will take about 50% more damage after the change than now. Now compare that to a player that has 30K health today, and effectively 60K health after the change. It will now take 60K damage instead of 30K damage to kill - 100% more damage to kill that player. Clearly players that rely on health instead of shields are going to be buffed by the upcoming change, and not the "bubble builds".

You are writing as if people never reapply their wards and bubbles. lol

SC0TY999 wrote: »

Sorc shields scale from max Magika hence the reason all sorcs put every attribute point into Magika, stack as much Magika a possible and your shield will be massive.

On a sorc alt I used to run I had 30k Magika and along with 100 points in Bastion which then increases damage shields by 25% my hardened ward alone was 15k.

Exactly right. You know what I'm talking about. Given your build, would it be fair to say that the biggest weakness you had was in your low health? The biggest weakness was the time before and between ward applications? And therefore wouldn't it be fair to say that an overall reduction in damage mitigates that weakness?

olemanwinter

Continuing to reply to a bunch of people at once....

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

@olemanwinter Name a single class skill (beside Hardened Ward) that can keep a sorc alive during a fight in PVP. Any stam build only has to hit my 14k shield twice and its gone, when its gone I have no mitigation because of the way armor penetration currently works. But yeah, two hits is way to much for my shield, sorcs should die on the first hit.

I don't understand. Why is it all or nothing with Sorcs? Either they are invincible or they melt like butter!
I'm not arguing for a removal of Hardened Ward, or even shield stacking. I'm simply stating that they DON'T NEED A BUFF!
And making it so you can always apply it, never die before or between ward applications is a huge buff.

Finally, I agree that Sorc is a weak class OUTSIDE Of this build, however that doesn't change the fact that the build is OP and out of balance and ridiculous. It's not my fault that Sorc is a messed up class with only 1 real viable PvP build.

But I'm not going to remain silent while changes based on good intentions have unforeseen negative consequences resulting in a god-mode build becoming more prevalent....when I do foresee those consequences in advance.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

1. Shield are getting nerfed by 35%, damage by 30% only. So yes, shields are weaker
2. I agree that the upcoming changes are extremely stupid. I don't want them..... leave the game as it is right now, we don't want mitigated damage in pvp. We don't want infinite fight. If I burst a target out of stealth, I want it to be dead and if my enemy does a mistake, I want him to be dead.

This will no longer be possible tough.

Has no place in an MMO IMHO.

AND NEITHER does "Invincibility" or 1vX in perpetude.

I have no problem with extending TTK...unless during that extension someone is able to activate an invincible build!

What do you think should happen when someone who is built for maximum damage encounters someone who is built for maximum defense? As it stands now, when these two people meet it's entirely conditional on the circumstances. If the defender is prepared ...the MAXIMUM damage in the game is effectively 100% negated and ignored. If the defender is not prepared he dies instantly. It makes sense that BOTH the people in that scenario would be annoyed and find the game unbalanced.

The max burst DPS player is annoyed to encounter a build that can take the highest single strike damage in the game without even losing any health. The defensive player is annoyed that when he's not prepared he dies before he can even react.

I understand and appreciate both sides....but this change is a slap in the face to only 1 side. If it's already difficult to solo kill (and by difficult I mean out-of-balance) to kill a shield stacking Sorc when they are prepared, and now you can't kill them when they are unprepared FAST ENOUGH that they can't get prepared after engagement.....then how are you supposed to kill them?

I just find it funny that people say getting 1-shotted has "No place in an mmo" but they think defensive builds that require 3, 4, 5 or more players to defeat as a matter of course...do have a place in an mmo. That's absurd.

Vis wrote: »

So correction, bubbles are losing 5‰ relative to dps. Secondly, the key to bubble builds is mobility and or blocking to allow the bubbles to be replenished. Mobility and blocking are both taking massive nerfs.

You may have a point in regards to mobility with the nerf to bolt escape, but honestly the magica pool being used in these builds is so high, they can currently bolt almost endlessly...and at least well out of range if not sight. It's almost impossible to beat a Sorc that is prioritizing staying alive over getting a kill himself. If Sorcs are only able to cast 1/2 as many bolts, I still think that's going to be too many and these changes are going to result in a net-increase in their toughness.

Now, this is not all Sorcs. Zos has created a class where you either pick the god-mode entirely unbalanced stacked bubble build or you aren't competitive at all in pvp.

9 out of 10 (non NB) players will benefit from this change. But that 1 guy employing this build, even if he's in the minority is going to stick out on the PvP battlefield and ruin your PvP experience even more than now....and more people will be inspired to roll that build imho.

As for blocking, I disagree completely. The blocking is used mostly to avoid CC not mitigate damage. The lack of regen while blocking is only an issue if your stamina is depleted and it's not depleted when wards are taking all the damage.

olemanwinter

Ezareth wrote: »

=
I know on my Sorc with @300 CP and 75 points in Bastion I'm getting a 13K hardened ward and I regularly have stamina users 1-shot this with wrecking blow forcing me to reapply it. I'm only at ~29K Magicka however.=

OH THE HUMANITY. You mean to tell me the biggest damage skill in the game...depletes your...ward? And then you have to reapply it? Oh sweet salty moses. The horror.

This is exactly the problem.

Player 1 is spec'd for maximum damage. Player 2 is spec'd for maximum defense.

Player 1 hits player 2 as hard as possible ....and player 2 loses NO HEALTH.

So much WTF that I don't even know where to begin.


You're entire mindset is skewed. You talk about your ward, not you....but your ward being 1-shot.

I don't even.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically or cherry-pick that one statement, but my goodness that really gets right to the point of what I'm talking about.

smacx250

olemanwinter wrote: »

smacx250 wrote: »

I think you've got things backwards. For a simple example, the total damage to kill a "bubble build" today that has say 20K heath and 20K total shields, is roughy 40K damage to get through. After the change, it is effectively 40K health and 20K total shields, for a total of 60K damage to kill. That means that to kill that player it will take about 50% more damage after the change than now. Now compare that to a player that has 30K health today, and effectively 60K health after the change. It will now take 60K damage instead of 30K damage to kill - 100% more damage to kill that player. Clearly players that rely on health instead of shields are going to be buffed by the upcoming change, and not the "bubble builds".

You are writing as if people never reapply their wards and bubbles. lol

It is even worse in that case, as shields are being nerfed and health buffed. The more one relies on shields the worse it will be. Do the same math with the shield being re-applied once, twice, etc. For example:

Bubble build: 20K health, 20K shields applied twice: 60K damage to get through now. After patch, effective 40K health + 20K shields applied twice = 80K damage to get through. That is 33% more damage to kill after the change.

Health + mitigation build: Same calc as before, and 100% more damage to get through after the change.

This is certainly no buff to "bubble builds". The more shield stacking and shield re-applications involved, the worse this patch becomes.

olemanwinter

smacx250 wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

smacx250 wrote: »

I think you've got things backwards. For a simple example, the total damage to kill a "bubble build" today that has say 20K heath and 20K total shields, is roughy 40K damage to get through. After the change, it is effectively 40K health and 20K total shields, for a total of 60K damage to kill. That means that to kill that player it will take about 50% more damage after the change than now. Now compare that to a player that has 30K health today, and effectively 60K health after the change. It will now take 60K damage instead of 30K damage to kill - 100% more damage to kill that player. Clearly players that rely on health instead of shields are going to be buffed by the upcoming change, and not the "bubble builds".

You are writing as if people never reapply their wards and bubbles. lol

It is even worse in that case, as shields are being nerfed and health buffed. The more one relies on shields the worse it will be. Do the same math with the shield being re-applied once, twice, etc. For example:

Bubble build: 20K health, 20K shields applied twice: 60K damage to get through now. After patch, effective 40K health + 20K shields applied twice = 80K damage to get through. That is 33% more damage to kill after the change.

Health + mitigation build: Same calc as before, and 100% more damage to get through after the change.

This is certainly no buff to "bubble builds". The more shield stacking and shield re-applications involved, the worse this patch becomes.

That's entirely nonsensical. Shields are being nerfed...but so is damage. They will remain up as long (or nearly as long) as before and between applications you will be twice as difficult to kill. You will have twice as much time to reapply a ward before dying. You will be able to take twice as much damage when you're unprepared before applying the shields.

And your numbers are all wrong. You have health and shields at a 1 to 1 ratio or a 2 to 1 ratio. Most players running the types of builds I'm talking about achieve FAR FAR MORE shield strength than their health.

But I'm pretty much done going back and forth with you. We are both just repeating ourselves which is boring and repetitive....like playing against your bubble build. CYA

Teargrants

olemanwinter wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

=
I know on my Sorc with @300 CP and 75 points in Bastion I'm getting a 13K hardened ward and I regularly have stamina users 1-shot this with wrecking blow forcing me to reapply it. I'm only at ~29K Magicka however.=

OH THE HUMANITY. You mean to tell me the biggest damage skill in the game...depletes your...ward? And then you have to reapply it? Oh sweet salty moses. The horror.

This is exactly the problem.

Player 1 is spec'd for maximum damage. Player 2 is spec'd for maximum defense.

Player 1 hits player 2 as hard as possible ....and player 2 loses NO HEALTH.

So much WTF that I don't even know where to begin.


You're entire mindset is skewed. You talk about your ward, not you....but your ward being 1-shot.

I don't even.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically or cherry-pick that one statement, but my goodness that really gets right to the point of what I'm talking about.

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Wards are an extension of health that simply functions proactively by casting before damage rather than reactively after damage, like GDB.

Do you make the same melodramatic laments when you snipe a Templar and he just BOLs to full? It's the same thing.