Possible compromise on TV Stones to make it both rewarding & risky for all

Tavore1138

So... another possible mechanic has split the community and here's my idea for a compromise that could maybe keep everyone content... and make everyone involved at risk...

First - when you KB another player you get less than 100% of stones. Maybe 10%, maybe 25%, maybe 33% - but not all, this way someone who has been playing the game as intended is not simply rolled by an arch-ganker for all they have done. But at the same time the killer does get a percentage worth having. And if you get ganked multiple times trying to play or get out of IC obviously your stock will be whittled down accordingly but never to zero so you feel like your play was totally wasted. This also actually allows more chances for someone to KB a player and recieve some loot.

Second - When player killed in IC you cannot res for 60 seconds, maybe 120 secs. You can be ressed by other players and obviously your corpse can be defended though. After the timeout you can respawn in the safe zone as always.

Third - if you KB someone in IC the TV stones do not simply pop up in your inventory, you have to approach the corpse (eligible corpses to be marked) and 'F' interact in some way like resurrecting another player, like ressing you can be in stealth but also like ressing you can be found, damaged and interrupted. At the end of X seconds you get the loot and can then make your escape.

The intent here is allow the 'risk/reward' mechanic that some players want without the instant 100% loss of resources that the announced system suggests. It also forces the looting player to take risks too instead of just sniping from range and cloaking away. Finally by making resurrection part of the mechanic it encourages team work and 'white knight' play as well as looting - bring out the good in people as well as the bad.

I'm sure there are things I haven't considered here just trying to think of a way that this can work for everyone....

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

CP5

Just wanted to chime in and say great idea.

Tavore1138

CP5 wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in and say great idea.

Thanks - although the single reply to this while my other thread rumbles on is a sad testament to how much more willing we all are to argue instead of trying to resolve something

arena25

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in and say great idea.

Thanks - although the single reply to this while my other thread rumbles on is a sad testament to how much more willing we all are to argue instead of trying to resolve something

Great idea...

Compromise works...because, after all, this is AMERICA!

Soulshine

I asked someone in your other thread to explain what terms would be more agreeable... no reply yet. I like some of your ideas, but not all. The timed mechanic on the looting of players would need more restrictions. What I mean is, I would hope that if something like this got implemented, that the interrupt and subsequent "taking" of loot be possible ONLY by another enemy player and not someone from your own team. I say this because the potential for bystander greed from you own faction potential would be inevitable, much like the old problem that would arise from master looter system abuse in old school PvE raids. People could see you die while looting, or worse while fighting an enemy for the loot, and then just casually stroll in and take the TV stones off the body while the two of you are fighting. No bueno, amiguito.

Audigy

I think people would be very angry if they had to wait 60 seconds or even 120 before they can resurrect.

Another aspect is, if you let people only take 10% from your crowns, then they will corpse camp you until there are no crowns left. Doesn't sound like fun to me either

Honestly,

I played a few games where death was either permanent or you lost your stuff. At none of these games frustration kicked in, as everything that you might lose, could be won equally easy again.

What a lot of people here seem to ignore is the fact that you can kill stuff as well, its not like you are the victim at all times.

Tavore1138

Soulshine wrote: »

I asked someone in your other thread to explain what terms would be more agreeable... no reply yet. I like some of your ideas, but not all. The timed mechanic on the looting of players would need more restrictions. What I mean is, I would hope that if something like this got implemented, that the interrupt and subsequent "taking" of loot be possible ONLY by another enemy player and not someone from your own team. I say this because the potential for bystander greed from you own faction potential would be inevitable, much like the old problem that would arise from master looter system abuse in old school PvE raids. People could see you die while looting, or worse while fighting an enemy for the loot, and then just casually stroll in and take the TV stones off the body while the two of you are fighting. No bueno, amiguito.

I meant to imply that you could only be looted by the person who scored the Kill on you.

Psychobunni

Audigy wrote: »

I think people would be very angry if they had to wait 60 seconds or even 120 before they can resurrect.

Another aspect is, if you let people only take 10% from your crowns, then they will corpse camp you until there are no crowns left. Doesn't sound like fun to me either

Honestly,

I played a few games where death was either permanent or you lost your stuff. At none of these games frustration kicked in, as everything that you might lose, could be won equally easy again.

What a lot of people here seem to ignore is the fact that you can kill stuff as well, its not like you are the victim at all times.

Did you know that going into the game? OR was it instituted in after you had been playing a while, invested time and money, and they tied it to the only thing new in the game while everyone was starved? (and for all we know right now, we must get it)

Saying "well I played games you lost everything and I didn't care" does not apply here. This was a game you only lost time (getting back to the fight) and that is what people signed up for.

Sharee

The problem i see is this.

The intent is that taking the stones from the mobs is only half the work. You do not 'have' them until you safely transport them back to your banker, and that is the tricky part - getting through the enemy players waiting for your return to take the stones from you.

Now, what would happen if you have 10.000 stones on you, and lose 10% of them to an enemy player?

He basically just did you a favor. You have lost 10%, but at the same time he made sure the remaining 90% are completely safe, as you respawn in your alliance's safehouse, next to the banker.

This is contraproductive, because it destroys the risk vs reward factor of getting a stone multiplier from carrying many stones. People would always go for the risk (carry maximum stones) because they knew this quadruples their income, and dying to another player is no big deal, since it makes the remaining stones 'safe'.

RDMyers65b14_ESO

Heck, you get killed now before you are fully res'd that is IF there is someone nice enough to res you in the first place. I don't know how often I have had my own people in my group ignore the fact that I was dead and they didn't bother to res. Then the ones that do res you don't kill the griefer who takes advantage of the fact that as you are being res'd that your health is at fifty percent.

I am hoping with all of the threads, ZOS will remove the ganking reward. They almost have to do so at the anger I have been reading.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

If you have TV stones and you are killed, something of yours is taken and given to an enemy. For those that don't like things being taken from them, no reduction in percentage is going to make them suddenly ok with it.

Tavore1138

Sharee wrote: »

The problem i see is this.

The intent is that taking the stones from the mobs is only half the work. You do not 'have' them until you safely transport them back to your banker, and that is the tricky part - getting through the enemy players waiting for your return to take the stones from you.

Now, what would happen if you have 10.000 stones on you, and lose 10% of them to an enemy player?

He basically just did you a favor. You have lost 10%, but at the same time he made sure the remaining 90% are completely safe, as you respawn in your alliance's safehouse, next to the banker.

This is contraproductive, because it destroys the risk vs reward factor of getting a stone multiplier from carrying many stones. People would always go for the risk (carry maximum stones) because they knew this quadruples their income, and dying to another player is no big deal, since it makes the remaining stones 'safe'.

Fair point - but equally you are not safe until you have left IC because banking stones is expensive by design nor is max risk always good because remember you lose to deaths from mobs as well. In fact if you wanted to do this suicide by mob actually works better anyway.

So pick a number that represents enough risk to keep you happy but is also liable to draw in enough people to the area that you will actually have a reasonable amount of targets... I proposed a variety of possible levels all of which represent a significant risk to someone who has played enough to gain a decent number of stones, are you willing to compromise somewhere?

Tavore1138

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

If you have TV stones and you are killed, something of yours is taken and given to an enemy. For those that don't like things being taken from them, no reduction in percentage is going to make them suddenly ok with it.

The only real argument needed is that a lot of players don't seem to want it and thus will not play it or pay for it - ZOS are in the business of making games that people will actually play thus they need us to buy/play their new content or they will be looking for jobs with a failed MMO as the last entry on their resume.

My personal concern is that it has a high likelihood of encouraging the worst kind of play from the worst kind of players, something that the relatively consequence free nature of PvP currently has either avoided or masked.

But basically how people *feel* about the games they play is not strictly about logic, it's about what brings them pleasure...

Soulshine

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

If you have TV stones and you are killed, something of yours is taken and given to an enemy. For those that don't like things being taken from them, no reduction in percentage is going to make them suddenly ok with it.

This is very true and I have been discussing this same thing in another thread here. I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that if a mob kills you, you ALSO LOSE TV stones. Not one thread about that.

Honestly it just seems like there is this completely overblown sense of childish entitelment happening which is really too bad. I think the zone design as presented is brilliant. I will still have options to earn stones, even as a PvE player which I think is nice.

That said, I am sure there are some other things that could be added to improve the system, but only time and testing it out live will bring that to light. it is nice to consider some of these ideas, but I don't think it should be done in the spirit of trying to obliterate what has been literally years in the planning on ZoS' part without even so much as an effort to try it.

Tavore1138

Soulshine wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

If you have TV stones and you are killed, something of yours is taken and given to an enemy. For those that don't like things being taken from them, no reduction in percentage is going to make them suddenly ok with it.

This is very true and I have been discussing this same thing in another thread here. I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that if a mob kills you, you ALSO LOSE TV stones. Not one thread about that.

Honestly it just seems like there is this completely overblown sense of childish entitelment happening which is really too bad. I think the zone design as presented is brilliant. I will still have options to earn stones, even as a PvE player which I think is nice.

That said, I am sure there are some other things that could be added to improve the system, but only time and testing it out live will bring that to light. it is nice to consider some of these ideas, but I don't think it should be done in the spirit of trying to obliterate what has been literally years in the planning on ZoS' part without even so much as an effort to try it.

I think it is because if a mob kills you it is a percent loss not all your inventory, and at tyhe same time you risk losing some against the risk of gaining some.

If someone who cannot be bothered to play the content simply camps and ganks then they actually take no risk at all as they will have no stones whereas the person who has played the content as intended takes all the risk and even if they survive and turn the tables they will get no reward except a small number of AP/XP.

DschiPeunt

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

If you have TV stones and you are killed, something of yours is taken and given to an enemy. For those that don't like things being taken from them, no reduction in percentage is going to make them suddenly ok with it.

I know that real life comparisons are usually turned down without thinking about them, but I will give it a try anyway
This is kind of like the difference between 100% and say 30% taxes. Nobody would think that it's ok for the government to take all your money, but if they take a decent part it is fine.

I like the looting system for TV stones, but a 100% penalty will cause lots and lots of frustration. Say you play in IC for an hour and earn 1000 TVS. Now you want to bank them and log out afterwards. Boom 1 ganker and that hour was totally wasted. You have nothing now.
Same for lags and game crashes. Imagine you are the best PvP player and run around with 10k TVS to get the max multiplier. You are invincible. Ha, jokes on you. Game crash, you get killed and again: you have NOTHING.

That is why I think players should only be able to loot somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3 of your TVS if they kill you. That way you still get something for the time played, which isn't completely neglectable.

Pangnirtung

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

I am all for this if you also lose your weapons and your armor.

If you want to make it risk vs. reward make it really risky. You worked hard to get the right combo of weapons and armor. That's a risk.

Soulshine

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

If you have TV stones and you are killed, something of yours is taken and given to an enemy. For those that don't like things being taken from them, no reduction in percentage is going to make them suddenly ok with it.

This is very true and I have been discussing this same thing in another thread here. I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that if a mob kills you, you ALSO LOSE TV stones. Not one thread about that.

Honestly it just seems like there is this completely overblown sense of childish entitelment happening which is really too bad. I think the zone design as presented is brilliant. I will still have options to earn stones, even as a PvE player which I think is nice.

That said, I am sure there are some other things that could be added to improve the system, but only time and testing it out live will bring that to light. it is nice to consider some of these ideas, but I don't think it should be done in the spirit of trying to obliterate what has been literally years in the planning on ZoS' part without even so much as an effort to try it.

I think it is because if a mob kills you it is a percent loss not all your inventory, and at tyhe same time you risk losing some against the risk of gaining some.

If someone who cannot be bothered to play the content simply camps and ganks then they actually take no risk at all as they will have no stones whereas the person who has played the content as intended takes all the risk and even if they survive and turn the tables they will get no reward except a small number of AP/XP.

And how exactly is camping out in wait of player kills NOT being bothered to play the content?

PvP play is not limited to killing NPCs in an area or killing players in an area by only one method of play.

Last I played PvP, in this game and others I have been in, ganking is par for the territory and should be expected.

Any player who has been camping out runs a risk of eventually getting ganked themselves as it will become known to his/her enemies soon enough that such a player follows that tactic. If anything, gankers can over time in this system likely make themselves huge targets for each other since kills can be seen, which means what is good for the goose is good for the gander, follow?

That aside, the vicitim mentality is also a bit overblown here.

If people are going to just dig their heels in and insist this system is unfair there is little point in discussion really. Admit it is not your cup of tea and move on.

technohic

Pangnirtung wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

I am all for this if you also lose your weapons and your armor.

If you want to make it risk vs. reward make it really risky. You worked hard to get the right combo of weapons and armor. That's a risk.

Have you ever heard of logical fallacy? You seem to be pro at it.

And to the OP, I appreciate you put some thought into it rather than just crying about it, but there are safe stones to be had and the entire point is to fight over them. Its not to reward the winning player with some of the stones, but it's equally to fight hard and be careful to protect yours. I don't want someone just rolling over viewing it as a small loss. They need to fight or run like it really matters.

It has to be something that is hard to understand if you are not the kind of player that likes that rush. Its like going to a high stakes poker table and asking them to do $5 hands.

DschiPeunt

technohic wrote: »

Pangnirtung wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

I am all for this if you also lose your weapons and your armor.

If you want to make it risk vs. reward make it really risky. You worked hard to get the right combo of weapons and armor. That's a risk.

Have you ever heard of logical fallacy? You seem to be pro at it.

And to the OP, I appreciate you put some thought into it rather than just crying about it, but there are safe stones to be had and the entire point is to fight over them. Its not to reward the winning player with some of the stones, but it's equally to fight hard and be careful to protect yours. I don't want someone just rolling over viewing it as a small loss. They need to fight or run like it really matters.

It has to be something that is hard to understand if you are not the kind of player that likes that rush. Its like going to a high stakes poker table and asking them to do $5 hands.

When playing poker, do you go all-in every round, no matter how good or bad your hand is, just to feel that rush? If so, you may not be very good at poker.

technohic

DschiPeunt wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Pangnirtung wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

I am all for this if you also lose your weapons and your armor.

If you want to make it risk vs. reward make it really risky. You worked hard to get the right combo of weapons and armor. That's a risk.

Have you ever heard of logical fallacy? You seem to be pro at it.

And to the OP, I appreciate you put some thought into it rather than just crying about it, but there are safe stones to be had and the entire point is to fight over them. Its not to reward the winning player with some of the stones, but it's equally to fight hard and be careful to protect yours. I don't want someone just rolling over viewing it as a small loss. They need to fight or run like it really matters.

It has to be something that is hard to understand if you are not the kind of player that likes that rush. Its like going to a high stakes poker table and asking them to do $5 hands.

When playing poker, do you go all-in every round, no matter how good or bad your hand is, just to feel that rush? If so, you may not be very good at poker.

No but in this case, you are not using any chips you brought to the table. Its all chips you aquire while at the table. You're playing with house money.

Tavore1138

technohic wrote: »

Pangnirtung wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

I am all for this if you also lose your weapons and your armor.

If you want to make it risk vs. reward make it really risky. You worked hard to get the right combo of weapons and armor. That's a risk.

Have you ever heard of logical fallacy? You seem to be pro at it.

And to the OP, I appreciate you put some thought into it rather than just crying about it, but there are safe stones to be had and the entire point is to fight over them. Its not to reward the winning player with some of the stones, but it's equally to fight hard and be careful to protect yours. I don't want someone just rolling over viewing it as a small loss. They need to fight or run like it really matters.

It has to be something that is hard to understand if you are not the kind of player that likes that rush. Its like going to a high stakes poker table and asking them to do $5 hands.

It is a rush and a challenge I get elsewhere I suppose, I game to relax after the working day and while I enjoy the challenge of PvP here I also have appreciated the stakes are not high. I was never one to enjoy the corpse run or other similar mechanics either. The reason I'd like to find some middle ground i because I enjoy this game and want to experience both PvP and PvE content in this expansion but I fear that this aspect will reduce my fun, thus if a compromise that gives you sufficient rush without causing me undue grief is possible I'd love to find it.

As I have said elsewhere I am not a bad PvP player either, many of those waving their egos around elswhere appear on my kill list with depressing frequency - I think I could make out well from this mechanic, I just don't think I want to.

Joy_Division

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

If you have TV stones and you are killed, something of yours is taken and given to an enemy. For those that don't like things being taken from them, no reduction in percentage is going to make them suddenly ok with it.

I can think of several.

• Fear Spamming NBs and their unbreakable CC
• DKs who die while stuck in their leap animation
• Random disconnects, loading screens, and other assorted unexpected ZoS surprises
• 34K camouflage hunter procs from caltrops
• Lag
• Etc, etc.

This isn't exactly the most stable or balanced game.

I like the overall concept of IC and looting defeated players, but the proposed method is a bit extreme considering the current state of the game.

helediron

I think 10% loss is fair. That balances the difference between PvE and PvP players. Otherwise the PvE majority gets too piffed off and we end up to complete segregation.

With 10% loot gankers have to work the same way as PvE farmers. Collecting e.g. 1000 stones would take roughly equally long time with both methods.

firstdecan

DschiPeunt wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

If you have TV stones and you are killed, something of yours is taken and given to an enemy. For those that don't like things being taken from them, no reduction in percentage is going to make them suddenly ok with it.

I know that real life comparisons are usually turned down without thinking about them, but I will give it a try anyway
This is kind of like the difference between 100% and say 30% taxes. Nobody would think that it's ok for the government to take all your money, but if they take a decent part it is fine.

I like the looting system for TV stones, but a 100% penalty will cause lots and lots of frustration. Say you play in IC for an hour and earn 1000 TVS. Now you want to bank them and log out afterwards. Boom 1 ganker and that hour was totally wasted. You have nothing now.
Same for lags and game crashes. Imagine you are the best PvP player and run around with 10k TVS to get the max multiplier. You are invincible. Ha, jokes on you. Game crash, you get killed and again: you have NOTHING.

That is why I think players should only be able to loot somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3 of your TVS if they kill you. That way you still get something for the time played, which isn't completely neglectable.

I like the analogy, except the government is a necessary evil and most people realize that some taxes have to be paid to keep the government running. Unfortunately a closer analogy is more like going to the store and getting robbed on your way home. Maybe the thief only took half of what you bought, but you will still feel like you're the one who worked for it and the other guy is just an ass.

A previous poster had mentioned that there was an entirely PvE way to get the stones. If that is the case, there's not much to complain about because there is a mechanism for the PvE crowd to access the new gear (and I have been complaining about IC in other threads). I'm not opposed to a completely cut throat aspect of the game, it could be fun, the only thing that is causing this backlash is the perception that this cut throat aspect is the only way to earn VR16 gear or the new gear sets.

Soulshine

firstdecan wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

If you have TV stones and you are killed, something of yours is taken and given to an enemy. For those that don't like things being taken from them, no reduction in percentage is going to make them suddenly ok with it.

I know that real life comparisons are usually turned down without thinking about them, but I will give it a try anyway
This is kind of like the difference between 100% and say 30% taxes. Nobody would think that it's ok for the government to take all your money, but if they take a decent part it is fine.

I like the looting system for TV stones, but a 100% penalty will cause lots and lots of frustration. Say you play in IC for an hour and earn 1000 TVS. Now you want to bank them and log out afterwards. Boom 1 ganker and that hour was totally wasted. You have nothing now.
Same for lags and game crashes. Imagine you are the best PvP player and run around with 10k TVS to get the max multiplier. You are invincible. Ha, jokes on you. Game crash, you get killed and again: you have NOTHING.

That is why I think players should only be able to loot somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3 of your TVS if they kill you. That way you still get something for the time played, which isn't completely neglectable.

I like the analogy, except the government is a necessary evil and most people realize that some taxes have to be paid to keep the government running. Unfortunately a closer analogy is more like going to the store and getting robbed on your way home. Maybe the thief only took half of what you bought, but you will still feel like you're the one who worked for it and the other guy is just an ass.

A previous poster had mentioned that there was an entirely PvE way to get the stones. If that is the case, there's not much to complain about because there is a mechanism for the PvE crowd to access the new gear (and I have been complaining about IC in other threads). I'm not opposed to a completely cut throat aspect of the game, it could be fun, the only thing that is causing this backlash is the perception that this cut throat aspect is the only way to earn VR16 gear or the new gear sets.

That is correct. You can earn TV stones by completing PvE quests and dailies in the zone. The stones will be in reward boxes which cannot be looted from you if you are killed. You can open the boxes later and bank the stones. I dont see what the issue is with that option. As I mentioned in other threads, its a nice way for PvE people to still participate in the zone and earn some rewards. If they are willing to risk more they can play more and earn more. Seems a win win to me, the rest just sounds rather like sour grapes....

RazzPitazz

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Do we really need a compromise? I have yet to hear a logical argument as to why the loss rate shouldn't be 100 percent. This is a PvP mechanic in a PvP zone. There already is a mechanism in place to keep PvE'rs from getting TV stones stolen from daily quests.

If you have TV stones and you are killed, something of yours is taken and given to an enemy. For those that don't like things being taken from them, no reduction in percentage is going to make them suddenly ok with it.

This is very true and I have been discussing this same thing in another thread here. I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that if a mob kills you, you ALSO LOSE TV stones. Not one thread about that.

Honestly it just seems like there is this completely overblown sense of childish entitelment happening which is really too bad. I think the zone design as presented is brilliant. I will still have options to earn stones, even as a PvE player which I think is nice.

That said, I am sure there are some other things that could be added to improve the system, but only time and testing it out live will bring that to light. it is nice to consider some of these ideas, but I don't think it should be done in the spirit of trying to obliterate what has been literally years in the planning on ZoS' part without even so much as an effort to try it.

I think it is because if a mob kills you it is a percent loss not all your inventory, and at tyhe same time you risk losing some against the risk of gaining some.

If someone who cannot be bothered to play the content simply camps and ganks then they actually take no risk at all as they will have no stones whereas the person who has played the content as intended takes all the risk and even if they survive and turn the tables they will get no reward except a small number of AP/XP.

This is secondary to the issue, which is still an issue. The counter offensive provides no reward in itself except that you survived... for now. This basically comes across as highway robbery simulator. , which in itself is the perfect way to keep PvE and PvP seperate within the same vicinity.
The REAL issue isn't how PvP is being handled, it's how gear progression and obtainability is being handled.
We know that, based on opinion, most of the best PvE gear right now is obtained within Cyrodiil. With the stones being added it would appear as if this trend will continue, meaning the best PvE gear is still within a PvP portion of the game but is now gated. The workaround is that the gear can be sold to other players but this offers two problems;
1- chances are that the prices will be greatly inflated based on demand, after everyone has decided they don't want anymore gear for themselves
2- the content must be purchased to be able to purchase these items even through another player.

All of this is pure speculation as they have yet to talk about the second half of the update that applies to all players including the gear sets.

TLDR; PvErs don't really care if they lose stones in PvP, they need a way to get the same or equivalent gear without ever having to step foot in a PvP zone. The information provided this far is not solid enough to give players a good idea of how or even if ZOS has considered this which they most likely have, given the amount of new PvE content VS PvP content.

technohic

The more I hear argument against lootable stones, the more I feel it needs to be done. No compromise. People need to just accept that not everything is for everyone and juSt because something has not been in use yet, doesnt mean it shouldn't be tried. After it's live, if there are really so few people enjoying it then that is fine, to change something that turns out to not be popular, but try need to stick with it and find out.

Sharee

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

The problem i see is this.

The intent is that taking the stones from the mobs is only half the work. You do not 'have' them until you safely transport them back to your banker, and that is the tricky part - getting through the enemy players waiting for your return to take the stones from you.

Now, what would happen if you have 10.000 stones on you, and lose 10% of them to an enemy player?

He basically just did you a favor. You have lost 10%, but at the same time he made sure the remaining 90% are completely safe, as you respawn in your alliance's safehouse, next to the banker.

This is contraproductive, because it destroys the risk vs reward factor of getting a stone multiplier from carrying many stones. People would always go for the risk (carry maximum stones) because they knew this quadruples their income, and dying to another player is no big deal, since it makes the remaining stones 'safe'.

Fair point - but equally you are not safe until you have left IC because banking stones is expensive by design nor is max risk always good because remember you lose to deaths from mobs as well.

I am not sure what you mean by 'you are not safe until you have left IC'. Once you bank your stones, they are perfectly safe, whether you do it in IC or elsewhere.

Players do not die to mobs often enough to give up a 4x modifier to stone income just because of that. I dare say deaths to mobs are a non-factor here.

Farming with a 1x modifier instead of 4x modifier means you are willingly 'losing' 75% of your stones. If deaths to players cost you less than 75% of your stones, it will be more profitable to just run around with a 4x modifier all the time. The risk/reward concept just went down the drain.

Korah_Eaglecry

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

So... another possible mechanic has split the community and here's my idea for a compromise that could maybe keep everyone content... and make everyone involved at risk...

First - when you KB another player you get less than 100% of stones. Maybe 10%, maybe 25%, maybe 33% - but not all, this way someone who has been playing the game as intended is not simply rolled by an arch-ganker for all they have done. But at the same time the killer does get a percentage worth having. And if you get ganked multiple times trying to play or get out of IC obviously your stock will be whittled down accordingly but never to zero so you feel like your play was totally wasted. This also actually allows more chances for someone to KB a player and recieve some loot.

Second - When player killed in IC you cannot res for 60 seconds, maybe 120 secs. You can be ressed by other players and obviously your corpse can be defended though. After the timeout you can respawn in the safe zone as always.

Third - if you KB someone in IC the TV stones do not simply pop up in your inventory, you have to approach the corpse (eligible corpses to be marked) and 'F' interact in some way like resurrecting another player, like ressing you can be in stealth but also like ressing you can be found, damaged and interrupted. At the end of X seconds you get the loot and can then make your escape.

The intent here is allow the 'risk/reward' mechanic that some players want without the instant 100% loss of resources that the announced system suggests. It also forces the looting player to take risks too instead of just sniping from range and cloaking away. Finally by making resurrection part of the mechanic it encourages team work and 'white knight' play as well as looting - bring out the good in people as well as the bad.

I'm sure there are things I haven't considered here just trying to think of a way that this can work for everyone....

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Im not a fan of any sort of looting off of other players. BUT I will say this is a good compromise. Fact is, no matter how much players like myself say they dont want it. ZOS has shown time and time again they will ignore the playerbase and continue on with whatever they intend. So hopefully theyre smart enough to realize that 10%-25% from a PvP kill is the best option. As long as they add in an immunity so that individuals cant continuously gank the same player over and over again.

RustedValor

There really is no community split on the TV stones. There is only a small vocal minority of players who post on the forums on every thread on this topic. Players will buy the expansion because content is content, and there hasn't been any in a while. If ZOS reduces IC to yet another mindless mob grind it will make the gear you get from these stones utterly worthless, easily obtained, and pointless.The entire game is a mindless mob grind, and even PVP has been reduced to a mindless zerg grind. Finally they are doing something interesting and controversial, and I really hope they don't ruin the system for a small minority of players who refuse to adapt, and stamp their feet because every piece of content in the game doesn't cater to their playstyle. A large part of the game population will enjoy this content, some never will enjoy any type of pvp. Being as this is likely the only PVP expansion this game will ever see, the devs should do whatever is necessary to foster the most fun PvP experience possible.