ZOS-Player's Gimping themselves for an actually challenge, ESO we have a problem.

BBSooner

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Slonekb05 wrote: »

The goal is getting more challenging fights for fun. I don't seek better loot than anyone else. I understand i would be in the minority of that argument, a small xp increase would accomplish a small reward without penalizing players who don't want to play on hard. There's a balance that could be found im sure.

I want all of this dirty side of mmos to remain in group dungeons where i can safely avoid it.

Luckily that's where I want the difficulty scale! Looks like we might just agree after all!

LucyferLightbringer

BBSooner wrote: »

Luckily that's where I want the difficulty scale! Looks like we might just agree after all!

Now you confuse me, don't group dungeons allready have scale? Normal/vet?

BBSooner

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Luckily that's where I want the difficulty scale! Looks like we might just agree after all!

Now you confuse me, don't group dungeons allready have scale? Normal/vet?

As it is now, vet dungeons are entirely separate encounters and experiences than normal dungeons. Example:

City of Ash
The city is aflame thanks to cultists

Veteran City of Ash
The city has been regrowing and it's time to deal with the main threat.

Different environment, different story. DSA is the only post-50 instances that is basically the same.

This is why I want a difficulty scale. Said dungeons could be made easier for those less inclined to jump in to it, and ramp up the difficulty for people who enjoy dungeon running with appropriate loot rewards to make it a worthwhile avenue of character progression.

Slonekb05

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Slonekb05 wrote: »

The goal is getting more challenging fights for fun. I don't seek better loot than anyone else. I understand i would be in the minority of that argument, a small xp increase would accomplish a small reward without penalizing players who don't want to play on hard. There's a balance that could be found im sure.

Sadly i fear there are not many people like you, who want increased challenge for the sake of fun. Fun i could always support and agree with. Elitism, min maxing and turning gaming into second job i can not support. I want all of this dirty side of mmos to remain in group dungeons where i can safely avoid it.

I get that, truth be told ..you could keep game exactly the same and just add in Instance delv/dungeons i would be a happy clam. Would i like it to be a higher difficulty, of course my OP says it all, but in order of priority i would want instance dungeons before anything.

Morvul

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

I'll take fun over challengge any day. My daily life challenges me enough i play to have fun.

I'm always puzzles by statements like that...
how can something be fun, if it is free of challenge?

Morvul

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Now you confuse me, don't group dungeons allready have scale? Normal/vet?

apart from the fact that normal and vet dungeons are not exactly the same dungeon at different "challenge:

the "difficulty" of the non-vet dungeons for geared V14s is literally "press 1 button repeatetly untill collecting loot".
the vet dungeons are a bit more challenging then that, but still a bit on the easy side when considering the amount of CP many players have by now

Slonekb05

Morvul wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Now you confuse me, don't group dungeons allready have scale? Normal/vet?

apart from the fact that normal and vet dungeons are not exactly the same dungeon at different "challenge:

the "difficulty" of the non-vet dungeons for geared V14s is literally "press 1 button repeatetly untill collecting loot".
the vet dungeons are a bit more challenging then that, but still a bit on the easy side when considering the amount of CP many players have by now

Yup, from all videos i have seen with players solo'ing vet group content... i dont have high hopes

Attorneyatlawl

Slonekb05 wrote: »

Morvul wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Now you confuse me, don't group dungeons allready have scale? Normal/vet?

apart from the fact that normal and vet dungeons are not exactly the same dungeon at different "challenge:

the "difficulty" of the non-vet dungeons for geared V14s is literally "press 1 button repeatetly untill collecting loot".
the vet dungeons are a bit more challenging then that, but still a bit on the easy side when considering the amount of CP many players have by now

Yup, from all videos i have seen with players solo'ing vet group content... i dont have high hopes

That's actually not due to champion ranks. Veteran content and dungeons were nerfed significantly post-launch, going from a near-trivial difficulty level before the champion system was implemented, to a nowadays trivial level afterward.

Slonekb05

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Slonekb05 wrote: »

Morvul wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Now you confuse me, don't group dungeons allready have scale? Normal/vet?

apart from the fact that normal and vet dungeons are not exactly the same dungeon at different "challenge:

the "difficulty" of the non-vet dungeons for geared V14s is literally "press 1 button repeatetly untill collecting loot".
the vet dungeons are a bit more challenging then that, but still a bit on the easy side when considering the amount of CP many players have by now

Yup, from all videos i have seen with players solo'ing vet group content... i dont have high hopes

That's actually not due to champion ranks. Veteran content and dungeons were nerfed significantly post-launch, going from a near-trivial difficulty level before the champion system was implemented, to a nowadays trivial level afterward.

Aye, thats what i have heard. That sums it up right there... they nerf the challenge out of the game, and continue to make player's stronger. Its become killing a fly with a sledge hammer.

Slonekb05

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Luckily that's where I want the difficulty scale! Looks like we might just agree after all!

Now you confuse me, don't group dungeons allready have scale? Normal/vet?

yeah but normal/vet option isn't enough. People solo vet lv group dungeons all the time.

Slonekb05

no comment on this topic from quakecon

Machiavelli

This is pretty subjective. Just because you find it easy doesn't mean others do.

Slonekb05

Machiavelli wrote: »

This is pretty subjective. Just because you find it easy doesn't mean others do.

subjective yes, but not just me by a long shot lol

Magdalina

Well it doesn't look like ZOS sees an issue. I do though, and I used to(and still do to a point) really defend the "casual" crowd:/
When I was leveling my baby templar alt(and that was before CP which can only mean now it's worse if anything) her armor broke at around level 40 and I just took it off and ran the rest naked. Mind you I wasn't very good with templar back then(still a not that great, my main will always be sorc)...I could solo dolmens 5 levels above me. Naked. Not too many issues. I remember a very long time ago me and a group or 5+ people STRUGGLED at a dolmen because it spawn like 10 Storm Atronachs and those were the beast back then, we wiped so hard first couple of tries...we felt really great when we finally did it though, it was overcoming a challenge, was so cool! What was wrong with that that it needed nerfed that badly?(actually that may have been in vet zones but the idea is the same)

I remember a lot of people complaining about vet zones difficulty, I was one of them back then, I still think it was justified - it was like hitting a wall at vet 1, you'd breeze through everything up til then and then SUDDENLY get 1 shot at every corner. It wasn't fun, it was frustrating, it was too much. A lot of people felt that way. But I don't remember *one* of those people saying "please make WBs/dolmens/publics soloable", in fact I specifically remember the majority being like "why don't you slightly reduce the overall difficulty but leave WB/dolmens/etc just where they are, because they seem just perfect for team challenge, we just don't want a challenge like that ALL the time?". There were also very sane suggestions about gradual difficulty increase, like v1 zone would be much akin to non vet one, just a bit higher, while v10 would be where vet zones were pre nerf, so players learn steadily instead of hitting that wall.
I suppose just blindly nerfing *everything* 50 times was easier>_>

Slonekb05

Magdalina wrote: »

Well it doesn't look like ZOS sees an issue. I do though, and I used to(and still do to a point) really defend the "casual" crowd:/
When I was leveling my baby templar alt(and that was before CP which can only mean now it's worse if anything) her armor broke at around level 40 and I just took it off and ran the rest naked. Mind you I wasn't very good with templar back then(still a not that great, my main will always be sorc)...I could solo dolmens 5 levels above me. Naked. Not too many issues. I remember a very long time ago me and a group or 5+ people STRUGGLED at a dolmen because it spawn like 10 Storm Atronachs and those were the beast back then, we wiped so hard first couple of tries...we felt really great when we finally did it though, it was overcoming a challenge, was so cool! What was wrong with that that it needed nerfed that badly?(actually that may have been in vet zones but the idea is the same)

I remember a lot of people complaining about vet zones difficulty, I was one of them back then, I still think it was justified - it was like hitting a wall at vet 1, you'd breeze through everything up til then and then SUDDENLY get 1 shot at every corner. It wasn't fun, it was frustrating, it was too much. A lot of people felt that way. But I don't remember *one* of those people saying "please make WBs/dolmens/publics soloable", in fact I specifically remember the majority being like "why don't you slightly reduce the overall difficulty but leave WB/dolmens/etc just where they are, because they seem just perfect for team challenge, we just don't want a challenge like that ALL the time?". There were also very sane suggestions about gradual difficulty increase, like v1 zone would be much akin to non vet one, just a bit higher, while v10 would be where vet zones were pre nerf, so players learn steadily instead of hitting that wall.
I suppose just blindly nerfing *everything* 50 times was easier>_>

Should have never asked for a nerf to begin with(much credit for admitting that)not jumping on you specifically so please don't take it that way, but beware what you wish for. Most players die once and they think there's a fault with the game, rather than thinking about what they could have done better in the encounter. The dolmens are an absolute joke...i just pull out a chair and wait for them to be over there so boring. 30ppl show up and the mobs cant even load there life bar before they die.

Arandear

To be fair when I played this game at Launch it was actually fairly hard, coming across other players was welcomed, you usually needed a friend to kill a boss. (Who can remember that person who turns into a Harvester in Auridon in the under ground place? Think it was something to do with Fighters Guild but it was so long ago for me now)

People complained and so therefore ZOS took action. Now people complain it's to easy. Either way whatever happens people won't be happy. I just go with the flow haha.

Slonekb05

Arandear wrote: »

To be fair when I played this game at Launch it was actually fairly hard, coming across other players was welcomed, you usually needed a friend to kill a boss. (Who can remember that person who turns into a Harvester in Auridon in the under ground place? Think it was something to do with Fighters Guild but it was so long ago for me now)

People complained and so therefore ZOS took action. Now people complain it's to easy. Either way whatever happens people won't be happy. I just go with the flow haha.

agreed , if they did a universal change to difficulty ppl will always complain on one side of the fence. But if you add options like in my OP suggest it would solve difficulty for all.

ewhite106b16_ESO

I completely agree with the OP, 1-50 content is pretty much faceroll difficulty, incredibly easy with the only "challenge" in the overworld being soloing dolmens, group bosses and public dungeons. Caldwell silver/gold content isn't much improvement in terms of player skill. Going into a few reasons why this is a very bad thing regardless of your skill level as a player:

1) Too many players are reaching endgame dungeons/trials or PVP without learning basic game mechanics and how to play their class effectively.
I'm not talking about expert level gameplay here, but players who reach endgame without basic skills like dodging, blocking and understanding of class abilities that prepare them to be a productive member in endgame groups. It really isn't fun being in a PUG dungeon group with multiple group members dying constantlly and making really basic errors like standing in the fire/red zones, not interrupting or blocking. It's also not fun going breezing through leveling content that doesn't make you practice basic game skills then running into vastly higher endgame difficulty that assumes players know how to play their class and deal with dungeon mechanics.

Same deal applies with PVP, players get into Cyrodil and die within seconds of getting into an actual battle. Leveling didn't give them the basic game skills needed before learning PVP and getting into organized groups. In either case, more experienced players and newcomers end up separated, not working together and the game community suffers.

2) Player feedback doesn't highlight the real problems.

I see this a great deal looking at balance feedback in particular. Players saying that x or y ability is unbalanced because they die to it constantly - but they aren't using tools given to them by basic game mechanics or their class to mitigate/outright avoid that damage. Abilities end up being nerfed that aren't overpowered in the first place, masking the real problem that the players giving the feedback in the first place never had a challenge while leveling so never learned basic mechanics.

3) Players leave without giving the game a chance because the overly low leveling difficulty doesn't showcase the game's combat system in a good light.

Pretty self-evident, I've had friends very recently try the game and say the combat sucked because all they had to do to kill monsters was spam one ability until they ran out of magicka, then spam another ability that ran off stamina. They said dodging/blocking seemed like a completely unecessary mechanic because of how easy the monsters were to kill.

Solution:

I know it's alot of work, but add a "normal" difficulty mode to overland areas with the option to switch down to "easy". Make it very clear to the player that normal difficulty is the one they should aim for if they want to do PVP, vetran dungeons or trials. Easy mode would be the current 1-50 difficulty, normal would involve buffing monster damage especially damage from abilities that players are supposed to block/avoid/interrupt. Making monsters into huge piles of hit points just makes leveling slow and annoying, increasing actual ability damage and going for more agressive AI is great for developing the skill of the player and creating a smoother transition into endgame. Caldwell silver/gold doesn't need as much of a difficulty buff but still needs some work in this area.

This isn't about players being "casual" or "hardcore" but actually preparing players while they are leveling their character to take part in the longer term endgame play.

Slonekb05

ewhite106b16_ESO wrote: »

I completely agree with the OP, 1-50 content is pretty much faceroll difficulty, incredibly easy with the only "challenge" in the overworld being soloing dolmens, group bosses and public dungeons. Caldwell silver/gold content isn't much improvement in terms of player skill. Going into a few reasons why this is a very bad thing regardless of your skill level as a player:

1) Too many players are reaching endgame dungeons/trials or PVP without learning basic game mechanics and how to play their class effectively.
I'm not talking about expert level gameplay here, but players who reach endgame without basic skills like dodging, blocking and understanding of class abilities that prepare them to be a productive member in endgame groups. It really isn't fun being in a PUG dungeon group with multiple group members dying constantlly and making really basic errors like standing in the fire/red zones, not interrupting or blocking. It's also not fun going breezing through leveling content that doesn't make you practice basic game skills then running into vastly higher endgame difficulty that assumes players know how to play their class and deal with dungeon mechanics.

Same deal applies with PVP, players get into Cyrodil and die within seconds of getting into an actual battle. Leveling didn't give them the basic game skills needed before learning PVP and getting into organized groups. In either case, more experienced players and newcomers end up separated, not working together and the game community suffers.

2) Player feedback doesn't highlight the real problems.

I see this a great deal looking at balance feedback in particular. Players saying that x or y ability is unbalanced because they die to it constantly - but they aren't using tools given to them by basic game mechanics or their class to mitigate/outright avoid that damage. Abilities end up being nerfed that aren't overpowered in the first place, masking the real problem that the players giving the feedback in the first place never had a challenge while leveling so never learned basic mechanics.

3) Players leave without giving the game a chance because the overly low leveling difficulty doesn't showcase the game's combat system in a good light.

Pretty self-evident, I've had friends very recently try the game and say the combat sucked because all they had to do to kill monsters was spam one ability until they ran out of magicka, then spam another ability that ran off stamina. They said dodging/blocking seemed like a completely unecessary mechanic because of how easy the monsters were to kill.

Solution:

I know it's alot of work, but add a "normal" difficulty mode to overland areas with the option to switch down to "easy". Make it very clear to the player that normal difficulty is the one they should aim for if they want to do PVP, vetran dungeons or trials. Easy mode would be the current 1-50 difficulty, normal would involve buffing monster damage especially damage from abilities that players are supposed to block/avoid/interrupt. Making monsters into huge piles of hit points just makes leveling slow and annoying, increasing actual ability damage and going for more agressive AI is great for developing the skill of the player and creating a smoother transition into endgame. Caldwell silver/gold doesn't need as much of a difficulty buff but still needs some work in this area.

This isn't about players being "casual" or "hardcore" but actually preparing players while they are leveling their character to take part in the longer term endgame play.

good post, enjoyed the read.

Pangnirtung

DenMoria wrote: »

Oh God! Not another one of these guys.

The difficulty is plenty hard. I die regularly and am challenged by combat.

In total agreement.

It never surprises me to hear from players who think that the game should only concern itself with challenging THEM.

I found quests that were too easy and then quests that were too hard.

This game CANNOT be tailored to everyones skill level. Some of us are casual players who play the game for the enjoyment while others are hard core who figure out the best way to max out their skills, attributes and dress.

As for the argument that this game is an MMO, that doesn't wash. Not everyone wants to group. Get over it and realize that we can all be different but there is not a PERFECT game for all.

Slonekb05

Pangnirtung wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

Oh God! Not another one of these guys.

The difficulty is plenty hard. I die regularly and am challenged by combat.

In total agreement.

It never surprises me to hear from players who think that the game should only concern itself with challenging THEM.

I found quests that were too easy and then quests that were too hard.

This game CANNOT be tailored to everyones skill level. Some of us are casual players who play the game for the enjoyment while others are hard core who figure out the best way to max out their skills, attributes and dress.

As for the argument that this game is an MMO, that doesn't wash. Not everyone wants to group. Get over it and realize that we can all be different but there is not a PERFECT game for all.

Another person who did not read OP ..."Options" is a key word. read before you post please