Would You Preffer a PvP Campaign Where Champion Point Passives are Disabled?

Robotmafia

No, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign using champion passives.

i mean u understand why peopel would want it and i dont mind if they add the option but i would play in which ever campaign is not restricted

RoamingRiverElk

I would choose a 360 CP campaign because it allows for more different kinds of builds than a 0 CP campaign does. Yet it's not too much yet. Could give *everyone* in the campaign 360 CP to allocate according to their wishes.

Fasold666

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

This is an awesome idea and I don't see any problem in adding a campaign without cp's. You would still have campaigns with the effect of cp's. It looks pretty much the same like veteran and non-veteran campagins for me.

I hope they add it.

Pirhana7_ESO

No, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign using champion passives.

I still dont understand why you would not want PVP progression...... always being able to improve your character gives you soemthing to aim for... If you dont want progression why even play an MMO? Why even level or get gear or build a character..... You basically want a character that is the exact same as everyone else that is premade

F7sus4

No, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign using champion passives.

Sypher is right in general, since obviously dealing 25% more/less damage solely because of CP is still one fourth of a difference. However, once everyone reaches the estimated 300-360 CP, the difference between players (also called "CP gap") shall become less and less noticeable, and at one point even negligible.

Note that the majority of DPS boosting CP passives have contradicting resistances. For example, even if enemy player has 100CP invested in Elemental Expert (+25% bonus) and 300CP total, he still goes against your Elemental Defender. Let's also assume your enemy has 200 more CP than you. That's a lot. But you still have as much as 11,5% resistance with just 33CP invested in Elemental Defender. Despite the huge gap he gets only as much as 13,5% (out of his total 25%) bonus against you, so it's basically halved, despite the huge gap.

Eventually everyone will reach +25% DPS buff and +25% damage mitigation, rendering the buff effectively 0%. The only problem are physical attacks that don't have a corresponding resistances. That's of course a topic for another discussion. Fortunately, there are at least shield boosting CPs.

eliisra

F7sus4 wrote: »

The initial statements were:

• Characters get overwhelming majority of their CP-related power around 300-360 CP (all 3 color-trees with 100CP+ each)
• Therefore only the first 300-360 CPs are dead-crucial to get the most benefit
• Therefore additional CP above 300-360CP threshold are not really that important

But that statement isn't true to begin with. You're making a test based on something that's incorrect, at least in PvP.

You need to focus on way more than 3-4 different things in each three for a well rounded PvP build (unless you're a zerg boy).

On my templar I benefit greatly from all of these things: block cost, dodge cost, stamina recovery, magicka recovery, bastion, blessed, spell erosion, elfborn, thaumaturge, resistant, hardy, thick skinned, spell shield, elemental defender and magician.

Than there's stuff that's really useful but not dead crucial: elemental expert, staff expert, elusive, quick recovery, warlord, defile.

With only 300 CP, there's loads of highly beneficial things boosting characters strength massively, that I cant even begin to put points in.

So no, I dont agree that with only 300-400 CP you get the most out of your build in PvP, than you hit some kind of threshold with lesser benefits.

But I do agree with the statement when it comes to PvE. Since it's way more role based, you only need to invest in a handful of things to get the most out of a pure dps build, for example. Than around 400 CP is enough, rest is just sugar on top.

F7sus4

No, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign using champion passives.

eliisra wrote: »

You need to focus on way more than 3-4 different things in each three for a well rounded PvP build (unless you're a zerg boy).

F7sus4 wrote: »

• Obviously, different character setups would focus on different CP passives, thus provide different feedback. The reason for the charts is to provide general visual feedback for CP-amount invested versus Power Gained curves progress.

bowmanz607

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

F7sus4 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

You are simply wrong. I suggest you go do some testing on the pts.

The numbers are never wrong and the tests were already made (which I'd prefer instead of unthinkingly repeating other people's guess-based opinions).

Character Power vs CP invested:

The initial statements were:

• Characters get overwhelming majority of their CP-related power around 300-360 CP (all 3 color-trees with 100CP+ each)
• Therefore only the first 300-360 CPs are dead-crucial to get the most benefit
• Therefore additional CP above 300-360CP threshold are not really that important

I. Blue Trees - DPS output:

For purpose of this test we're maxing:
1) Main DPS boosting CP: Thaumaturge (for +25% damage output at 100CP invested)
2) Staff Expert afterwards for Staff-weaving (after reaching 100CP above)
3) Spell Erosion afterwards for additional damage bonus (abv.)

(Note: The test-character is a Magicka Nightblade with ca. 2000 Spell Damage and ca. 35000 Magicka)

Funnel Health with Staff-weaving output:


Full DPS rotation with Staff-weaving output:


II. Red Trees - Damage Mitigation and Utility:

For purpose of this test we're maxing:
1) Main DPS mitigating CP: Elemental Defender (for Elemental DMG) or Hardy (for Magicka/Poison)
2) Secondary DPS mitigating CP: Spell Shield (after reaching 100CP for max of -25% bonus).

(Note: The character is 5/1/1 Light/Medium/Heavy build, ca. 10k Spell Resistance and getting hit by Concealed Weapon using mirror character; 50% Spell Crit)



III. Green Trees - Cost Reduction and Regeneration:

For purpose of this test we're maxing:
1) Main Cost Reduction CP: Magician (for -25% bonus, maxed)
2) Main Stat Regenetaion CP: Arcanist (for +25 bonus, maxed and assuming this is needed at all)

(Note: The spell of choice was Sap Essence; two Cost Reduction enchantments on jewerly)



IV. Conclusion:

• You're getting the most benefits up to 300-360 CP.
• All CP above mentioned threshold give mostly a slight increase in character's power - be it +300CP or +900CP.

V. Additional comments related to discussion:

• Unexperienced/casual player is not likely be saved by the bonuses granted above 300-360CP threshold alone (Player Skill > Character Power).
• Unexperienced/casual player is likely be saved by having the very first 300-360CP passive bonuses unlocked.
• Unexperienced/casual players will eventually reach 300-360CPs (possible by September/October 2015 by using enlightenment pool only).
• Obviously, different character setups would focus on different CP passives, thus provide different feedback. The reason for the charts is to provide general visual feedback for CP-amount invested versus Power Gained curves progress.

Thank you for your time!

This is great info. Seriously. But you miss my point. Yes you can maximize a particular set way to play. I.e. dps, healing etc. But pvp is more than just maximizing your damage or your healing stats. It 8s about diversity. What about plyers with 600 or 1000 points? They can easily max out those stats and then turn their attention to other various stats and maximize. Now they have maximum dps and placed points into break free, recovery, and sprint. Now they have crazy resource managment. They also put points into their healing and spell damage crit along with elemental damage. Then they turn and already have medium armor and spell resist along with crit damage reduction. Maxed. Now they turn their eyes to increasing their she wild atrength, reduce magic and elemental effects along with dots and reduce block cost. A good player knows you don't win against another good player by merely fighting in one way. Merely maxing out you dps is great but doesn't show the whole picture of a fight. The fight that involves dodgerolling, blicking, breaking free, taking various forms of damage all while keeping your resources higher than there's to out sustain them. That is a real fight in pvp. Therefofe, having 300 champ points is a great way to max out one aspect of a fight, albeit, a well needed one. But for having a real fight in pvp the next 300 and the 300 after that are just as crucial as the first because they all add up to maxing out different stages of a fight while in pvp.

Sureshawt

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

Yes, we should get an option to play PvP without CP passives. Let the grinders play against each other with the CP system and give the rest of us an option to play without the CP system. Seems fair to me.

For me it is the only way I will return to playing PvP on a regular basis in this game as I refuse to grind out CP and I refuse to be cannon fodder for players with a massive artificial stat advantage simply because they have more time to endlessly grind.

Sureshawt

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

I still dont understand why you would not want PVP progression...... always being able to improve your character gives you soemthing to aim for... If you dont want progression why even play an MMO? Why even level or get gear or build a character..... You basically want a character that is the exact same as everyone else that is premade

Not true. There was already plenty of build diversity before the CP system and I will argue that the CP system doesn't add to diversity that but rather artificially inflates what was already there.

You wanna know why I want to play PvP in an MMO? Fun and entertainment.

I 'm fine with letting others that feel the need to constantly progress their characters. However, I think there should be an option for those of us that want to achieve the pinnacle of their character development and then just play and enjoy PvP.

jthack2007ub17_ESO

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

How can we balance out PVP when there's a mechanic that can vastly change how you deal/take/recover from damage on a player by player basis? Get rid of CP all together for PVP. The more 'even' everyone is with each other, the better PVP is going to be, and the more clear it will be making balance changes in the future.

You wouldn't want to take a break from LOL/DOTA come back, and find out that everyone on the other team takes 25% less dmg because they've played longer than you.

F7sus4

No, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign using champion passives.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

What about plyers with 600 or 1000 points? They can easily max out those stats and then turn their attention to other various stats and maximize. (...) Therefofe, having 300 champ points is a great way to max out one aspect of a fight, albeit, a well needed one.

It's about choosing the priorities. Many of the 300CP+ choices are usually indirectly beneficial, and not as crucial as the initial 300CP character's performance gain.

Since the whole system is based on diminishing returns, it might be good not to invest all CPs into one passive if a player wants to focus more than just 1 bonus at a time (and is limited by small amount of CP), but to split them to get the most beneficial combinations. For example: It might be better to have two 17,5% bonuses instead of one 25% or give up as much as the last +3% out of +25% to get +10% elsewhere.

Focusing many bonuses simultaneously would obviously lengthen the curves at the charts, and this is partially why the range of 300-360CP was estimated and not fixed number of 300CP. As already mentioned, since some mechanically-complicated builds might obviously be more CP demanding/splitting (for example roll-dodging Stamina).

EgoRush

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

I think people are missing a somewhat important detail here: it's not just about the passives. Investing CP increases your health, stamina and magicka depending on the constellation. Yes, it's incremental. But with 3600 CP you can have a build with >120K health and still have 20-25K magicka and stamina. How can you possibly say that 300-360 points is the threshold? I'm not confident the maths was done properly to account for increasing resources too.

Does anyone know the exact figure for how much resources increase? Someone with 600 more CP than me has far better stats all round though. They will do more damage thanks to having more stamina/magicka, and they can absorb more damage thanks to having more health.

Whoever says 300-360 CP is the peak for performance in PvP needs to consider fighting someone with thousands more CP and double your resources in some cases.

Stikato

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

This poll is a pretty damning indictment of how the CP system is being perceived by the playerbase. I hope ZOS is listening.

Egonieser

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

I have a feeling that when they introduce this campaign (if they do), all current campaigns will only be left with the CP grinders and competitive/casual people will have left for non-CP campaign.

Rev Rielle

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

Egonieser wrote: »

I have a feeling that when they introduce this campaign (if they do), all current campaigns will only be left with the CP grinders and competitive/casual people will have left for non-CP campaign.

Perhaps yes. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Those that want to test their characters with all their CP against other characters with CPs will have that option, whilst those that want to test their characters against other characters without the extra variation/imbalance CP brings will have that option too. It's extremely rare in, any situation, that giving more options is the wrong course of action, and I think it holds true here also.
It might also, as a side consequence, help to alleviate a bit of the horrendous lag everyone gets in Cyrodiil too when big groups get together by perhaps spreading out the PvP player base a little more evenly.

RustedValor

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

Honestly a non-cp campaign is needed for the longevity of pvp. A year from now no new players or returning players will want to touch pvp if they have to grind 6 months with xp pots just to get to the AVERAGE cp level.

Psychobunni

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

RustedValor wrote: »

Honestly a non-cp campaign is needed for the longevity of pvp. A year from now no new players or returning players will want to touch pvp if they have to grind 6 months with xp pots just to get to the AVERAGE cp level.

and then throw in IC where it's not just "oh well I died, I have to make the long trip back to the fight" anymore. Ofc, those with a lot of CP's wouldnt want the babies easiest to steal the candy from isolated from them.

I've been here since pc launch and still don't even have 200 CP despite barely missing a day since Champion System was released. Some people simply can't see past their own box and how things might effect others.

OnThaLoose

No, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign using champion passives.

People are using CP as an outlet to cry. I've went against players with hundreds of CP and I have 39. Guess what's more of a factor in winning? Player skill.

Evergnar

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

My vote would be to have:
1. CP disabled in non vet campaign
2. One new vet campaign with either CP removed or capped.

Sureshawt

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

OnThaLoose wrote: »

People are using CP as an outlet to cry. I've went against players with hundreds of CP and I have 39. Guess what's more of a factor in winning? Player skill.

Also nobody is saying that unskilled player with more CP will always win. The issue arise with skilled players with way more CP then other skilled players.

Whats the problem with allowing a Vet campaign without any artificial stat advantages from CP? Nothing will stop you from playing in the CP enabled campaign if you so choose.

Tors

No, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign using champion passives.

No,

Removal of champ passives will not stop people killing you
Removal of VR levels will not stop people killing you.

You also fail to take into account its the PVE crowd who get the champ points faster and easier than the PvP only crowd, such a server would just reduce the power of the PvE crowd, and increase the screams for nerfs when they realise they just shot themselves in the foot

Sykis

Not Sure.

I think the CP is an on going issue that will always be criticized. I for one would like different campaigns that accommodate different PVP.

Non-vet kept as is
VR1-10 battle lvled to be 10
VR 11-15 no battle lvl
VR 16 maxed out best of the best
Each lvl campaign could come with two maps to join: CP on and CP off.

This could give PVPers of different skill and level areas to hone their skills as they progress plus give those who are total elite a place for the truly gifted PVPer. Plus it would give DEVs a simple way to assess what their player base really wants without having to make major in game changes to the established set they already have.

FolkeWigg

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

This is an awesome idea! It would keep PvP fun and skillfull.

Pirhana7_ESO

No, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign using champion passives.

FolkeWigg wrote: »

This is an awesome idea! It would keep PvP fun and skillfull.

While taking away all PVP progression and a reason to keep going or feeling like your still improving your character. The CP system was the BEST thing they added to the PVP endgame as it lets you keep improving your character over a very long time with very minimal power gains

Psychobunni

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

FolkeWigg wrote: »

This is an awesome idea! It would keep PvP fun and skillfull.

While taking away all PVP progression and a reason to keep going or feeling like your still improving your character. The CP system was the BEST thing they added to the PVP endgame as it lets you keep improving your character over a very long time with very minimal power gains

How would a CP-less campaign take away AP and PVP ranks?...ie: PVP progression. One has nothing to do with the other.

Furthermore, if there was "a" campaign each vet/non...what would prevent you from playing in any of the others with all your CP's? and "improving your character" on your terms?

Pirhana7_ESO

No, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign using champion passives.

Sureshawt wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

I still dont understand why you would not want PVP progression...... always being able to improve your character gives you soemthing to aim for... If you dont want progression why even play an MMO? Why even level or get gear or build a character..... You basically want a character that is the exact same as everyone else that is premade

Not true. There was already plenty of build diversity before the CP system and I will argue that the CP system doesn't add to diversity that but rather artificially inflates what was already there.

You wanna know why I want to play PvP in an MMO? Fun and entertainment.

I 'm fine with letting others that feel the need to constantly progress their characters. However, I think there should be an option for those of us that want to achieve the pinnacle of their character development and then just play and enjoy PvP.

I do wish that somehow CP gains were the same for PVP and PVE but even with that not being the case CP power is not as strong as everyone is saying they are. The diminishing returns the deeper go go comibined with boost the casual player gets every day actually keep the the power between a grinder and a casual PVP player very close. Yes the difference between 0 CPs and 1500 is noticable. But after you play abit and gain the first 300, you are so much stronger and even tho you are at 300 and that other guy is at 2000 you have gained much more power than he has and you are tougher to him now

TequilaFire

No, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign using champion passives.

Well I bet the next thing they will want reduced is the amount of AP between Alliance ranks, just wait.

Sureshawt

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

I still dont understand why you would not want PVP progression...... always being able to improve your character gives you soemthing to aim for... If you dont want progression why even play an MMO? Why even level or get gear or build a character..... You basically want a character that is the exact same as everyone else that is premade

Not true. There was already plenty of build diversity before the CP system and I will argue that the CP system doesn't add to diversity that but rather artificially inflates what was already there.

You wanna know why I want to play PvP in an MMO? Fun and entertainment.

I 'm fine with letting others that feel the need to constantly progress their characters. However, I think there should be an option for those of us that want to achieve the pinnacle of their character development and then just play and enjoy PvP.

I do wish that somehow CP gains were the same for PVP and PVE but even with that not being the case CP power is not as strong as everyone is saying they are. The diminishing returns the deeper go go comibined with boost the casual player gets every day actually keep the the power between a grinder and a casual PVP player very close. Yes the difference between 0 CPs and 1500 is noticable. But after you play abit and gain the first 300, you are so much stronger and even tho you are at 300 and that other guy is at 2000 you have gained much more power than he has and you are tougher to him now

We will have to agree to disagree on that one. I see a system that provides a large number useful passives beyond just mitigation/dps in the range 20-25% for each of them. Also as I stated this system does not add anything to build diversity and simply inflates the numbers for things that already exist. I do agree with you though that I would like the system more if I could progress at similar rate through PvP.

I have been maintaining my CP gains at a level that I think reduces the power gap except against the most extreme grinders. What I hate with a passion is having to spend my limited playtime grinding out CPs rather then PvPng so I don't fall to far behind the curve! So much so that I've reduced my playtime overall as I'm not enjoying the game as much anymore....happens when I start to feel like a gerbil on a tread-wheel.

I also think it is bad for the long term health of the game as new players upon reaching Vet campaign status will experience a horribly unbalanced environment and just leave.

corwinDA

Yes, I would preffer to play a PvP Campaign with champion passives removed.

All the people signing in that hate this idea seem to not understand that op is asking if you "would" not saying zeni please turn cp off for all pvp. I would like both to be honest a cp pvp and no cp pvp. How can you hate just an optional addition so much unless you were either a major grinder that took the time to build an overload of cp or a pc port to console that had bot farmed your overload and want to keep your edge over the new players. Honestly not one of the people who have said no gave a legitimate reason why this addition is a bad idea they just defend the get gud attitude but let me keep my advantage.