How to nerf block casting without destroying tanks

Bashev

Decrease the damage with 90% that you do while you block. Dont stop stamina regeneration. Then tanks can use support skills and CC skills and still tank. They will do almost zero damage.

WolfingHour

Keep the change in blocking restricted to cyrodiil only.

Sorted.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Saying this once if you relie on perma blocking and block casting to tank you ARE NOT A TANK.

Garion

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Saying this once if you relie on perma blocking and block casting to tank you ARE NOT A TANK.

Well if that's the case I would say there are virtually no tanks in this game... I don't think you know what you are talking about, fella.

WolfingHour

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Saying this once if you relie on perma blocking and block casting to tank you ARE NOT A TANK.

You do realize this change has nothing to do with anyones ability to tank PvE content, right? Also, that tanks can do more than just hold block?

Go into a dungeon now with less than your normal stamina regen, don't block cast, and report back your dps. We would be curious to know the impressions of your healer as well.

Dagoth_Rac

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Saying this once if you relie on perma blocking and block casting to tank you ARE NOT A TANK.

Mantikora laughs at your corpse after you attempt to tank him with "situational blocking".

Darkeus

i say it should not affect tanks in full heavy armor when blocking, those changes should be just for light and medium armor.

PBpsy

WolfingHour wrote: »

Keep the change in blocking restricted to cyrodiil only.

Sorted.

I agree. Their vision of "do pvp and pve with the same character and build" was DOA. Never truly worked, will never work and continuing to push it further will ruin both aspects of the game even further.

Bashev

Darkeus wrote: »

i say it should not affect tanks in full heavy armor when blocking, those changes should be just for light and medium armor.

This is also a nice idea. But PvP wise it should have some damage penalties.

coryevans_3b14_ESO

WolfingHour wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Saying this once if you relie on perma blocking and block casting to tank you ARE NOT A TANK.

You do realize this change has nothing to do with anyones ability to tank PvE content, right? Also, that tanks can do more than just hold block?

Go into a dungeon now with less than your normal stamina regen, don't block cast, and report back your dps. We would be curious to know the impressions of your healer as well.

lol this^^ I have a tank and a healer. I already put every champ point into some form of betterment for his healing. 0 into any kind of dps on my templar and sometimes it's still hard to keep some folks up in dungeons at v14. Can't wait to deal with this now. My tank is an imp dk and the only time I block is to block heavy attacks. So it wont affect him too much.

bowmanz607

adapt. this game will always be changing and evolving. i know it is easier said then done, but it provides a new way to approach this game. stack more stamina and block during major points. it is not impossible but requires more cituational awareness and more into reduce cost of blocking.

Ffastyl

I am a tank and I welcome the change. It adds an extra layer of challenge to an already fun role. For PvP it does mean I cannot walk up to the front lines as often, but for PvE I rarely blocked anyway. This is a new layer to Stamina management, a new way to engage my brain. Which is something ESO has been lacking in since I completed VDSA -- mental challenges.

If you are looking for a counterpoint to my argument, I wear 6 reinforced heavy armor pieces and use several damage mitigation abilities. I have the resistances to take hits without blocking.

The "hold block" strategy is effective but boring for tanking. I prefer dealing damage while I tank, stop blocking and do more than stand there with a shield raised like a "Nerf sorc" sign.

Psychobunni

WolfingHour wrote: »

Keep the change in blocking restricted to cyrodiil only.

Sorted.

At least ZOS is consistent in destroying PVE to end PVP QQ

Psychobunni

Psychobunni wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

Keep the change in blocking restricted to cyrodiil only.

Sorted.

At least ZOS is consistent in destroying PVE to end PVP QQ

Edit: Have they ever once explained why they can't enact changes that way? You would think today would have been a prime time to explain why

PBpsy

Psychobunni wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

Keep the change in blocking restricted to cyrodiil only.

Sorted.

At least ZOS is consistent in destroying PVE to end PVP QQ

Edit: Have they ever once explained why they can't enact changes that way? You would think today would have been a prime time to explain why

They said long ago that their vision is that the player can change between Cyro and PVE without much hassle.They wanted immershun. The immersed should be equally viable both it pvp and PVE with the same build and the same skill.

We all know that this was never the case. There were very rarely builds that could work decently in both situations.This is obvious since we have a 2x5 +2 skill set up and the realities of pvp and pve are extremely different.

It is not about being able to do it . It is about not wanting to do it.

Suru

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Saying this once if you relie on perma blocking and block casting to tank you ARE NOT A TANK.

So ignorant. It not just permablocking, not a tank is screwed into building into a block build id suppose. Cant use any stamina support abilites. How frigging boring is that. Which is huge in vDSA. In SO are you not supposed to permablock as a main tank?

bowmanz607

how about trials groups running with an extra dps/tank that temporarily tanks for one taunt while main tank regens?

Ffastyl

I would assume it is a coding limitation, @Psychobunni .

As someone who's learned the basics of JavaScript, C++ and learning Python, it takes several hours for one person to find a logic error in several tens of lines of code. Those lines of code are enough to make an experience similar to Battleship without a board to look at.



Going by that, the amount of code needed to create something like ESO is too much for me to imagine.
On top of that, blocking and Battle Spirit (Cyrodiil buff) are likely programmed in separate blocks of code with very little, if anything, connecting the two. Rewriting code to do something different is a lot harder than writing that code from scratch (as mentioned in the Armchair Developer segment about underwater exploration/combat) and I doubt anyone wants ESO to go back into development for another half decade.

As to why rewriting/editing code is a lot harder than working from scratch...

Different programmers use different functions to accomplish the same thing, and each function has its own quirks. Copying or examining someone else's code without thoroughly detailed comments/notes is extremely confusing. More than likely something will break when you try to copy/edit it because what something does was not explained well enough.

Add to that the fact that variables' names are isolated to each class (code block/section), so names may be reused for different purposes, meaning the classes cannot safely interact with one another (a variable would have 2 values assigned to it, which cannot happen). This makes editing it harder, as you have to then change the name of a variable in one class, and all instances of said variable in the code (they do not all change when you rename the "master" variable). With this much code, it can be easy to miss an instance. Another class must also be made or edited in order to pass information between the classes once the variable issue is out of the way.

Then you can start typing the code for the feature you mentioned.

Psychobunni

@Ffastyl Except they have already done it with shields

DschiPeunt

bowmanz607 wrote: »

how about trials groups running with an extra dps/tank that temporarily tanks for one taunt while main tank regens?

What an awesome idea. Because the taunt is perfectly working in ESO and always reliable. And also a genius idea to have some tank just standing around waiting for the main tank to run out of stamina.
Not that time and therefore DPS would be an important factor in the leaderboards or something.
/sarcasm

This whole change will make PvE less fun for the good of PvP.

P.S.: Nothing against you bowmanz. It's ZOS with the genius ideas...

Ffastyl

Psychobunni wrote: »

@Ffastyl Except they have already done it with shields

And damage shields are separate from the blocking mechanic.

DschiPeunt

Ffastyl wrote: »

I am a tank and I welcome the change. It adds an extra layer of challenge to an already fun role. For PvP it does mean I cannot walk up to the front lines as often, but for PvE I rarely blocked anyway. This is a new layer to Stamina management, a new way to engage my brain. Which is something ESO has been lacking in since I completed VDSA -- mental challenges.

If you are looking for a counterpoint to my argument, I wear 6 reinforced heavy armor pieces and use several damage mitigation abilities. I have the resistances to take hits without blocking.

The "hold block" strategy is effective but boring for tanking. I prefer dealing damage while I tank, stop blocking and do more than stand there with a shield raised like a "Nerf sorc" sign.

I'm just curious: have you ever succesfully tanked the manticora or the serpent without blocking?

bowmanz607

DschiPeunt wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

how about trials groups running with an extra dps/tank that temporarily tanks for one taunt while main tank regens?

What an awesome idea. Because the taunt is perfectly working in ESO and always reliable. And also a genius idea to have some tank just standing around waiting for the main tank to run out of stamina.
Not that time and therefore DPS would be an important factor in the leaderboards or something.
/sarcasm

This whole change will make PvE less fun for the good of PvP.

P.S.: Nothing against you bowmanz. It's ZOS with the genius ideas...

i here that. but the other tank would be a an off-dps. or perhaps an off heal/off tank. yes you may lose some dps, but perhaps it is a workable solution to the problem. additionally, the characters are going to receive an increase in base damage overall with the new vet ranks, plus new gear should give higher damage output. this may allow for a group to maintain the same dps by having and extra off-tank on hand for the current content while they focus new content around this new blocking mechanic.

just ideas

trimsic_ESO

Bashev wrote: »

Decrease the damage with 90% that you do while you block. Dont stop stamina regeneration. Then tanks can use support skills and CC skills and still tank. They will do almost zero damage.

Best solution ever, that will address some issues in PVP without breaking the PVE or stamina builds.

Stalwart385

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Saying this once if you relie on perma blocking and block casting to tank you ARE NOT A TANK.

Sorry bud, I tank SO Hard Mode and vDSA, have leaderboard scores in both. I perma block and block cast.

Not sure what you base your opinion on.

DschiPeunt

bowmanz607 wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

how about trials groups running with an extra dps/tank that temporarily tanks for one taunt while main tank regens?

What an awesome idea. Because the taunt is perfectly working in ESO and always reliable. And also a genius idea to have some tank just standing around waiting for the main tank to run out of stamina.
Not that time and therefore DPS would be an important factor in the leaderboards or something.
/sarcasm

This whole change will make PvE less fun for the good of PvP.

P.S.: Nothing against you bowmanz. It's ZOS with the genius ideas...

i here that. but the other tank would be a an off-dps. or perhaps an off heal/off tank. yes you may lose some dps, but perhaps it is a workable solution to the problem. additionally, the characters are going to receive an increase in base damage overall with the new vet ranks, plus new gear should give higher damage output. this may allow for a group to maintain the same dps by having and extra off-tank on hand for the current content while they focus new content around this new blocking mechanic.

just ideas

Yeah, but look at say the serpent fight. You can't stand that boss without a real tanking gear. So you will have a "DPS" player with full heavy armor. I'm not saying that your idea wouldn't work, but game mechanics shouldn't make it necessary.

And let's see what new gear we get. If it is as useful as the (infallible) aether or (eternal) yokeda set, nobody will use it, and healers will stick to their v14 healers habit items, tanks to their vr14 footman items and dds to their vr14 martial knowledge/vr12 sun set items.

And this problem is not about the dungeons in which most bosses are nuked down in seconds. It's also not about trash mobs being bombed. One templar running repentance and nobody runs out of stamina.
It's about the "long" fights. Those which may take 5 minutes and more. And it's about the nice little bugs ZOS has implemented for us. 2 days ago I ran vCOA with some friends. Our tank couldnt pick up a single one of my spears through the whole dungeon. Imagine that in a 5 minute fight, say the serpent fight. Your tank can't let his block down, otherwise he may get one-hitted. He can also not pick up a spear to regain stamina and there are not that many mobs around to effectively run repentance. That would make a second tank necessary and as said before: game mechanics shouldnt make it necessary and because of the great working taunts in this game, I highly doubt, that this would end well.

I understand where this idea comes from and I am sure it will make PvP more fun for a lot of people, but on the other hand it will ruin PvE for others.

Rinmaethodain

Few days ago someone asked me how PVP whiners and junkies are ruining PVE experience.
We just got one.

Fuxo

Stopping stamina regen is really a bad idea. Players already learned to use block and it is not something that one can easily unlearn due to muscle memory. It will hit stamina users a lot. It would be much better if ZOS decreases the amount of damage blocked from 50% to e.g. 30%. Possibly only in PvP via Battle Spirit as they plan to do with damage, shields, etc.

Faulgor

The one change to fundamental game mechanics I really love since release, and everyone's against it.

Typical.

G0ku

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Saying this once if you relie on perma blocking and block casting to tank you ARE NOT A TANK.

I would like to see you tanking the axes in AA hardmode. But according to your post only thing you tanked yet is toothmaul gully....

but then again, not enough details to judge yet

Personofsecrets

Bashev wrote: »

Decrease the damage with 90% that you do while you block. Dont stop stamina regeneration. Then tanks can use support skills and CC skills and still tank. They will do almost zero damage.

pushing damage is becoming more and more important for pve tanks as tanking is becoming less and less relevant due to higher and higher dps being pulled.