Alessia Bridge Massacre

Sypher · July 2015

c0rp wrote: »

The only thing his videos are ever good for is showing what is broken, OP, and wrong with ESO pvp. #infinitedodgeroll

I'm glad they're good for something. *phew*

Snit · July 2015

Most of the damage mitigation in this video isn't dodge-rolls or nirn, but skilled use of line-of-sight.

That's not a class balance issue.

Master_Kas · July 2015

Erondil wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

It's pretty easy to survive as a permaroller, much more difficult to escape (compared to sorc). My VR4 NB bursts up to 3400 stamina regen. Imagine when I actually get some non-garbage gear and VR14 Cost reduction enchants.

That said, as shown in the video, when you get caught during the invulnerable time between rolls (or right after you are CC'ed before your break free goes through) you will die FAST!

It is easy to recognize that the skill cap on a stamina(especially NB) player is much higher than a caster is due to the number of "tweaks" that can be performed to help optimize your play that aren't available to casters. The margin for error is also less, and during any period of lag/bugs you're dead. A good number of my deaths on my NB these days come from getting stuck in charge and then blown up.

The flame whip spammer is usually pretty easily countered by fear + cloak.

I don't think they need to nerf dodge rolling at all, they only need to split out break free/dodge roll from stamina cost reduction enchants and nerf the hell out of regen in Cyrodiil atleast.

I agree with everything except the point about Flame Whip spammer being counterable by fear+cloak.

While you can survive one flame whip spammer (mostly thanks to nirn), each whip snares you down (and takes you out of stealth if you're trying to do that). Add in a jesus beam or two and you're done for.

The obvious solution here would be simply killing those people first, but the problem is that they are usually hiding behind block for the most of the encounter making it an impossibility, unless they react very slow when breaking fear (also keep in mind that going on offensive you're going to take a lot more dmg from all the dodgeable attacks as well).

It'll be interesting to see how things work out after the next patch, with nirn getting nerfed and whip/concealed getting fixed.

With nirn being adjusted and concealed/whip being changed i do look forward to more balancing by zos in terms of bringing stam down a touch. Currently there are far too many benefits for stam users over magicka. the champion system has tons of passives for helping stam users pull very high burst dps or long sustained high dps.

Overall next big update will be very fun!

I think the first thing would be nerf the 30% stamina regen that NBs have. That's an absurd amount for a passive. 10% is much more reasonable. I think that along with an increase to the amount of stamina it costs for dodge roll, or a mechanic like Streak where it costs more each time used within X seconds, would do fairly well to bring dodge roll into a balanced state.

If you remove 30% passive, then give stamblades a good selfheal or damageshield. If you make roll cost more after you use it (like streak) make it teleport us forward like streak does.

My main is stamina nightblade and there is almost no way I could survive without dodgerolling. Please keep in mind that it is stambuilds main defense mechanic (unless you spec for blocking ofc). It would be more like putting a cost increase each time you block/use damage shields. Since dodgeroll is a defense mechanic and NOT a escape mechanic.

Escape mechanics for a NB would be the cloak and/or teleport shade.

I do agree that stambuilds need a bit toning down damagewise. But it seems like alot of people in game and forums want nightblades and stambuilds to be free kills. Its becoming a bit annoying because their own permablock / shieldstacking builds they are fine with.

And I got VR14 chars of each class except templar and I enjoy them all.
Sorry if My writing is not the best atm.

/Master Kas EU

EDIT: Great video sypher. Sorry for bringing this into your thread. Keep up the good work!:)

Then streak should makes miss all incoming damages for 1 second... whats the point comparing what is not comparable?

Because he compares rolldodge with streak That's why I wrote that .

why did you not reply to his answer about making roll more with each use, just mine? Thought it was very clear that I was not serious, which he was. Wrote it so he can see why you cannot compare it.

As I Said most people havent even played a stambuild since then they would know that without dodgeroll it will be all skirts and staffs all over again. They want us to be free kills it seems.

Tell me how is a stambuild supposed to defend himself vs heavy magick dmg without dodgeroll?

Erondil · July 2015

Master_Kas wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

It's pretty easy to survive as a permaroller, much more difficult to escape (compared to sorc). My VR4 NB bursts up to 3400 stamina regen. Imagine when I actually get some non-garbage gear and VR14 Cost reduction enchants.

That said, as shown in the video, when you get caught during the invulnerable time between rolls (or right after you are CC'ed before your break free goes through) you will die FAST!

It is easy to recognize that the skill cap on a stamina(especially NB) player is much higher than a caster is due to the number of "tweaks" that can be performed to help optimize your play that aren't available to casters. The margin for error is also less, and during any period of lag/bugs you're dead. A good number of my deaths on my NB these days come from getting stuck in charge and then blown up.

The flame whip spammer is usually pretty easily countered by fear + cloak.

I don't think they need to nerf dodge rolling at all, they only need to split out break free/dodge roll from stamina cost reduction enchants and nerf the hell out of regen in Cyrodiil atleast.

I agree with everything except the point about Flame Whip spammer being counterable by fear+cloak.

While you can survive one flame whip spammer (mostly thanks to nirn), each whip snares you down (and takes you out of stealth if you're trying to do that). Add in a jesus beam or two and you're done for.

The obvious solution here would be simply killing those people first, but the problem is that they are usually hiding behind block for the most of the encounter making it an impossibility, unless they react very slow when breaking fear (also keep in mind that going on offensive you're going to take a lot more dmg from all the dodgeable attacks as well).

It'll be interesting to see how things work out after the next patch, with nirn getting nerfed and whip/concealed getting fixed.

With nirn being adjusted and concealed/whip being changed i do look forward to more balancing by zos in terms of bringing stam down a touch. Currently there are far too many benefits for stam users over magicka. the champion system has tons of passives for helping stam users pull very high burst dps or long sustained high dps.

Overall next big update will be very fun!

I think the first thing would be nerf the 30% stamina regen that NBs have. That's an absurd amount for a passive. 10% is much more reasonable. I think that along with an increase to the amount of stamina it costs for dodge roll, or a mechanic like Streak where it costs more each time used within X seconds, would do fairly well to bring dodge roll into a balanced state.

If you remove 30% passive, then give stamblades a good selfheal or damageshield. If you make roll cost more after you use it (like streak) make it teleport us forward like streak does.

My main is stamina nightblade and there is almost no way I could survive without dodgerolling. Please keep in mind that it is stambuilds main defense mechanic (unless you spec for blocking ofc). It would be more like putting a cost increase each time you block/use damage shields. Since dodgeroll is a defense mechanic and NOT a escape mechanic.

Escape mechanics for a NB would be the cloak and/or teleport shade.

I do agree that stambuilds need a bit toning down damagewise. But it seems like alot of people in game and forums want nightblades and stambuilds to be free kills. Its becoming a bit annoying because their own permablock / shieldstacking builds they are fine with.

And I got VR14 chars of each class except templar and I enjoy them all.
Sorry if My writing is not the best atm.

/Master Kas EU

EDIT: Great video sypher. Sorry for bringing this into your thread. Keep up the good work!:)

Then streak should makes miss all incoming damages for 1 second... whats the point comparing what is not comparable?

Because he compares rolldodge with streak That's why I wrote that . why did you not reply to his answer about making roll more with each use, just mine? Thought it was very clear that I was not serious, which he was. Wrote it so he can see why you cannot compare it.

As I Said most people havent even played a stambuild since then they would know that without dodgeroll it will be all skirts and staffs all over again. They want us to be free kills it seems.

Tell me how is a stambuild supposed to defend himself vs heavy magick dmg without dodgeroll?

He doesnt talk about streak in itself but about the cost increase mechanic. This kind of mechanic doesnt mean "no rollddge" as you seems to think just to be oos after a reasonable amount of rolldodge spam. Exactly as a sorc is oom after a reasonable (imo) amount of streak spam. Idk why you read "zos should remove rolldodge".

Master_Kas · July 2015

Erondil wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

It's pretty easy to survive as a permaroller, much more difficult to escape (compared to sorc). My VR4 NB bursts up to 3400 stamina regen. Imagine when I actually get some non-garbage gear and VR14 Cost reduction enchants.

That said, as shown in the video, when you get caught during the invulnerable time between rolls (or right after you are CC'ed before your break free goes through) you will die FAST!

It is easy to recognize that the skill cap on a stamina(especially NB) player is much higher than a caster is due to the number of "tweaks" that can be performed to help optimize your play that aren't available to casters. The margin for error is also less, and during any period of lag/bugs you're dead. A good number of my deaths on my NB these days come from getting stuck in charge and then blown up.

The flame whip spammer is usually pretty easily countered by fear + cloak.

I don't think they need to nerf dodge rolling at all, they only need to split out break free/dodge roll from stamina cost reduction enchants and nerf the hell out of regen in Cyrodiil atleast.

I agree with everything except the point about Flame Whip spammer being counterable by fear+cloak.

While you can survive one flame whip spammer (mostly thanks to nirn), each whip snares you down (and takes you out of stealth if you're trying to do that). Add in a jesus beam or two and you're done for.

The obvious solution here would be simply killing those people first, but the problem is that they are usually hiding behind block for the most of the encounter making it an impossibility, unless they react very slow when breaking fear (also keep in mind that going on offensive you're going to take a lot more dmg from all the dodgeable attacks as well).

It'll be interesting to see how things work out after the next patch, with nirn getting nerfed and whip/concealed getting fixed.

With nirn being adjusted and concealed/whip being changed i do look forward to more balancing by zos in terms of bringing stam down a touch. Currently there are far too many benefits for stam users over magicka. the champion system has tons of passives for helping stam users pull very high burst dps or long sustained high dps.

Overall next big update will be very fun!

I think the first thing would be nerf the 30% stamina regen that NBs have. That's an absurd amount for a passive. 10% is much more reasonable. I think that along with an increase to the amount of stamina it costs for dodge roll, or a mechanic like Streak where it costs more each time used within X seconds, would do fairly well to bring dodge roll into a balanced state.

If you remove 30% passive, then give stamblades a good selfheal or damageshield. If you make roll cost more after you use it (like streak) make it teleport us forward like streak does.

My main is stamina nightblade and there is almost no way I could survive without dodgerolling. Please keep in mind that it is stambuilds main defense mechanic (unless you spec for blocking ofc). It would be more like putting a cost increase each time you block/use damage shields. Since dodgeroll is a defense mechanic and NOT a escape mechanic.

Escape mechanics for a NB would be the cloak and/or teleport shade.

I do agree that stambuilds need a bit toning down damagewise. But it seems like alot of people in game and forums want nightblades and stambuilds to be free kills. Its becoming a bit annoying because their own permablock / shieldstacking builds they are fine with.

And I got VR14 chars of each class except templar and I enjoy them all.
Sorry if My writing is not the best atm.

/Master Kas EU

EDIT: Great video sypher. Sorry for bringing this into your thread. Keep up the good work!:)

Then streak should makes miss all incoming damages for 1 second... whats the point comparing what is not comparable?

Because he compares rolldodge with streak That's why I wrote that . why did you not reply to his answer about making roll more with each use, just mine? Thought it was very clear that I was not serious, which he was. Wrote it so he can see why you cannot compare it.

As I Said most people havent even played a stambuild since then they would know that without dodgeroll it will be all skirts and staffs all over again. They want us to be free kills it seems.

Tell me how is a stambuild supposed to defend himself vs heavy magick dmg without dodgeroll?

He doesnt talk about streak in itself but about the cost increase mechanic. This kind of mechanic doesnt mean "no rollddge" as you seems to think just to be oos after a reasonable amount of rolldodge spam. Exactly as a sorc is oom after a reasonable (imo) amount of streak spam. Idk why you read "zos should remove rolldodge".

Fact remains streak got that because it teleports u many meters forward and costs less than roll. (Or it did before the nerf) If so then blocking/spamming shields should also increase in cost because people do that alot Also and its just as annoying as a roller .

or wait give rolldodge cost increase so a roller eventuelly run out of stam while anyone build for regens can spam shields all night long .

I replied because people just scream nerf without thinking what it will do do stambuilds. Not trying to start a discussion tough. Have a good night denne

Edit : u just compared streak to roll again , when u should compare it to blocking /shieldstacking.
I never seen someone escaping big groups with purley dodgeroll which you cannot say about streak.

Lord_Bidr · July 2015

#nerfsypher

It's not so much the class as it is the player behind it. So far we've seen you wrecking faces on a DK, Sorc, and NB. Have you done it on a Templar yet?

Ezareth · July 2015

Once again, roll dodge is fine. There just needs to be some fixes to regen and cost reduction enchants.

Adding an increase to roll dodge for consecutive dodges would completely gimp stamina.

Tankqull · July 2015

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

This roll dodging sheananigans is absolutely unbearable. It's high time something was done to tone it down.
You take no damage, cloak when in danger, and come back from stealth to hit like a truck. You really think, even if your a really good player that this is not a bit op ?

Against other good players it's fine, at least in 1v1.
Also you take a lot of damage, most people just don't know how to deal with dodge.
As example, all of my skills are dodgeable but thanks to animation cancel I hit dodging targets with something and a stun grants me a short burst time.

Stamina NB is strong or op or whatever if the guy in front of the screen knows what to do. But same applies to all other classes, kind of.
Anyway they'll change something with next patch, looking forward to it.

I found staying alive in small fights a lot easier on my NB than on my sorc. Most enemies still don´t know how to deal with dodge or simply don´t have a build that is able to (also nirn). You need specific skills slotted or even "correct" morph choices (i´m looking at you streak) to deal with dodgeroll.

Once the paintrain engages that picture changes in favor of the sorc though. Teleport (+shields) is a better escape mechanic than dodgeroll + nirn.

I have yet to see a ranged cast hit a dodgeroller between two rolls reliably bc of how clunky the animations are. Animation clipping for melee styles (especially nb class skills) is a lot easier.

Edit: Whoops - nice vid :P

Sure, on range it's kinda hard to hit dodging people, but in melee it works quite well.
I wait a bit and hit these guys a few ms after the roll ends, since there is a small time frame to get hitted.
If that doesn't work I just stun and burst them, it's not like they got any other defense like shields which stay up even if stunned.
Yesterday I played my sorc the first time after months and it was quite easy to escape, but hard to survive some ppl hitting you at once. Since I didn't ran nirn or whitestrake, like I do on my NB to survive undodgeable whip and crap, it was kinda hard.
Overall it's based on the situation, open field you will have an advantage compared to a NB, but in towers...

untill they start to wear the crusader set...

IxSTALKERxI · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Once again, roll dodge is fine. There just needs to be some fixes to regen and cost reduction enchants.

Adding an increase to roll dodge for consecutive dodges would completely gimp stamina.

^This. I run a high weapon damage build atm which has not much regen, so I can't dodge roll much. Nerfing dodge roll would only hurt other builds. The problem lies with stacking many set bonues with stam regen combined with stacking percentages. The game is far from balanced since the removal of softcaps. Heck all the gear sets stayed the same with the addition of more % bonuses from cp. I don't know what zos was thinking. You can't remove softcaps unless you balance all the gear/ passives etc.

Soulac · July 2015

Takllin wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

It's pretty easy to survive as a permaroller, much more difficult to escape (compared to sorc). My VR4 NB bursts up to 3400 stamina regen. Imagine when I actually get some non-garbage gear and VR14 Cost reduction enchants.

That said, as shown in the video, when you get caught during the invulnerable time between rolls (or right after you are CC'ed before your break free goes through) you will die FAST!

It is easy to recognize that the skill cap on a stamina(especially NB) player is much higher than a caster is due to the number of "tweaks" that can be performed to help optimize your play that aren't available to casters. The margin for error is also less, and during any period of lag/bugs you're dead. A good number of my deaths on my NB these days come from getting stuck in charge and then blown up.

The flame whip spammer is usually pretty easily countered by fear + cloak.

I don't think they need to nerf dodge rolling at all, they only need to split out break free/dodge roll from stamina cost reduction enchants and nerf the hell out of regen in Cyrodiil atleast.

I agree with everything except the point about Flame Whip spammer being counterable by fear+cloak.

While you can survive one flame whip spammer (mostly thanks to nirn), each whip snares you down (and takes you out of stealth if you're trying to do that). Add in a jesus beam or two and you're done for.

The obvious solution here would be simply killing those people first, but the problem is that they are usually hiding behind block for the most of the encounter making it an impossibility, unless they react very slow when breaking fear (also keep in mind that going on offensive you're going to take a lot more dmg from all the dodgeable attacks as well).

It'll be interesting to see how things work out after the next patch, with nirn getting nerfed and whip/concealed getting fixed.

With nirn being adjusted and concealed/whip being changed i do look forward to more balancing by zos in terms of bringing stam down a touch. Currently there are far too many benefits for stam users over magicka. the champion system has tons of passives for helping stam users pull very high burst dps or long sustained high dps.

Overall next big update will be very fun!

I think the first thing would be nerf the 30% stamina regen that NBs have. That's an absurd amount for a passive. 10% is much more reasonable. I think that along with an increase to the amount of stamina it costs for dodge roll, or a mechanic like Streak where it costs more each time used within X seconds, would do fairly well to bring dodge roll into a balanced state.

They already nerfed Stamina Reg of nightblades by 30% (haste

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Once again, roll dodge is fine. There just needs to be some fixes to regen and cost reduction enchants.

Adding an increase to roll dodge for consecutive dodges would completely gimp stamina.

^This. I run a high weapon damage build atm which has not much regen, so I can't dodge roll much. Nerfing dodge roll would only hurt other builds. The problem lies with stacking many set bonues with stam regen combined with stacking percentages. The game is far from balanced since the removal of softcaps. Heck all the gear sets stayed the same with the addition of more % bonuses from cp. I don't know what zos was thinking. You can't remove softcaps unless you balance all the gear/ passives etc.

So as Stamina Build I shouldn't be capable of spamming my defense ability, even if I'm build for that?
Then I expect the same thing for shields, the major defense of Magicka builds.
You can spam it without even thinking about your magicka and at least in duels it makes you nearly untouchable.

Since everyone is able to dodge, Stamina builds should get a descent Shield, scaling like hardened ward.

There are so many counters and if you time your abilities, dodge is completely useless, so I don't see the problem in it.
Turn down the wpn damage scaling and Regen builds are forced to drop something to deal good dmg.

Bashev · July 2015

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Once again, roll dodge is fine. There just needs to be some fixes to regen and cost reduction enchants.

Adding an increase to roll dodge for consecutive dodges would completely gimp stamina.

^This. I run a high weapon damage build atm which has not much regen, so I can't dodge roll much. Nerfing dodge roll would only hurt other builds. The problem lies with stacking many set bonues with stam regen combined with stacking percentages. The game is far from balanced since the removal of softcaps. Heck all the gear sets stayed the same with the addition of more % bonuses from cp. I don't know what zos was thinking. You can't remove softcaps unless you balance all the gear/ passives etc.

But if ZoS brings back the soft cap (which I want) and then they don't fix the dodgeroll cost you will not stack anymore weapon power because of the soft cap and you will put the rest in stamina regen to reach the soft cap which I bet it will be enough for a lot of dodge rolls in a row.

Bromburak · July 2015

Vanzen wrote: »

You take no damage, cloak when in danger, and come back from stealth to hit like a truck. You really think, even if your a really good player that this is not a bit op ?

Such things makes it possible to become a good player because you are using the strength of a game.

Its no rocket science to be good at this. The question is if this fits your play style.

IxSTALKERxI · July 2015

Soulac wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

It's pretty easy to survive as a permaroller, much more difficult to escape (compared to sorc). My VR4 NB bursts up to 3400 stamina regen. Imagine when I actually get some non-garbage gear and VR14 Cost reduction enchants.

That said, as shown in the video, when you get caught during the invulnerable time between rolls (or right after you are CC'ed before your break free goes through) you will die FAST!

It is easy to recognize that the skill cap on a stamina(especially NB) player is much higher than a caster is due to the number of "tweaks" that can be performed to help optimize your play that aren't available to casters. The margin for error is also less, and during any period of lag/bugs you're dead. A good number of my deaths on my NB these days come from getting stuck in charge and then blown up.

The flame whip spammer is usually pretty easily countered by fear + cloak.

I don't think they need to nerf dodge rolling at all, they only need to split out break free/dodge roll from stamina cost reduction enchants and nerf the hell out of regen in Cyrodiil atleast.

I agree with everything except the point about Flame Whip spammer being counterable by fear+cloak.

While you can survive one flame whip spammer (mostly thanks to nirn), each whip snares you down (and takes you out of stealth if you're trying to do that). Add in a jesus beam or two and you're done for.

The obvious solution here would be simply killing those people first, but the problem is that they are usually hiding behind block for the most of the encounter making it an impossibility, unless they react very slow when breaking fear (also keep in mind that going on offensive you're going to take a lot more dmg from all the dodgeable attacks as well).

It'll be interesting to see how things work out after the next patch, with nirn getting nerfed and whip/concealed getting fixed.

With nirn being adjusted and concealed/whip being changed i do look forward to more balancing by zos in terms of bringing stam down a touch. Currently there are far too many benefits for stam users over magicka. the champion system has tons of passives for helping stam users pull very high burst dps or long sustained high dps.

Overall next big update will be very fun!

I think the first thing would be nerf the 30% stamina regen that NBs have. That's an absurd amount for a passive. 10% is much more reasonable. I think that along with an increase to the amount of stamina it costs for dodge roll, or a mechanic like Streak where it costs more each time used within X seconds, would do fairly well to bring dodge roll into a balanced state.

They already nerfed Stamina Reg of nightblades by 30% (haste

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Once again, roll dodge is fine. There just needs to be some fixes to regen and cost reduction enchants.

Adding an increase to roll dodge for consecutive dodges would completely gimp stamina.

^This. I run a high weapon damage build atm which has not much regen, so I can't dodge roll much. Nerfing dodge roll would only hurt other builds. The problem lies with stacking many set bonues with stam regen combined with stacking percentages. The game is far from balanced since the removal of softcaps. Heck all the gear sets stayed the same with the addition of more % bonuses from cp. I don't know what zos was thinking. You can't remove softcaps unless you balance all the gear/ passives etc.

So as Stamina Build I shouldn't be capable of spamming my defense ability, even if I'm build for that?
Then I expect the same thing for shields, the major defense of Magicka builds.
You can spam it without even thinking about your magicka and at least in duels it makes you nearly untouchable.

Since everyone is able to dodge, Stamina builds should get a descent Shield, scaling like hardened ward.

There are so many counters and if you time your abilities, dodge is completely useless, so I don't see the problem in it.
Turn down the wpn damage scaling and Regen builds are forced to drop something to deal good dmg.

Yes, same goes for everything, not just stam regen. Weapon Damage, Spell Damage, Stam regen, magica regen. Min maxing and stacking really high into a particular stat is contributing to the unbalance imo.

As an example, Blackwater blade is much more balanced because you are unable to increase your stats by a flat value from gear, so you are unable to stack and stack and stack some more. I'm not saying this is the solution, but I think the game should have less extremes then what it currently has.

Bashev · July 2015

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

It's pretty easy to survive as a permaroller, much more difficult to escape (compared to sorc). My VR4 NB bursts up to 3400 stamina regen. Imagine when I actually get some non-garbage gear and VR14 Cost reduction enchants.

That said, as shown in the video, when you get caught during the invulnerable time between rolls (or right after you are CC'ed before your break free goes through) you will die FAST!

It is easy to recognize that the skill cap on a stamina(especially NB) player is much higher than a caster is due to the number of "tweaks" that can be performed to help optimize your play that aren't available to casters. The margin for error is also less, and during any period of lag/bugs you're dead. A good number of my deaths on my NB these days come from getting stuck in charge and then blown up.

The flame whip spammer is usually pretty easily countered by fear + cloak.

I don't think they need to nerf dodge rolling at all, they only need to split out break free/dodge roll from stamina cost reduction enchants and nerf the hell out of regen in Cyrodiil atleast.

I agree with everything except the point about Flame Whip spammer being counterable by fear+cloak.

While you can survive one flame whip spammer (mostly thanks to nirn), each whip snares you down (and takes you out of stealth if you're trying to do that). Add in a jesus beam or two and you're done for.

The obvious solution here would be simply killing those people first, but the problem is that they are usually hiding behind block for the most of the encounter making it an impossibility, unless they react very slow when breaking fear (also keep in mind that going on offensive you're going to take a lot more dmg from all the dodgeable attacks as well).

It'll be interesting to see how things work out after the next patch, with nirn getting nerfed and whip/concealed getting fixed.

With nirn being adjusted and concealed/whip being changed i do look forward to more balancing by zos in terms of bringing stam down a touch. Currently there are far too many benefits for stam users over magicka. the champion system has tons of passives for helping stam users pull very high burst dps or long sustained high dps.

Overall next big update will be very fun!

I think the first thing would be nerf the 30% stamina regen that NBs have. That's an absurd amount for a passive. 10% is much more reasonable. I think that along with an increase to the amount of stamina it costs for dodge roll, or a mechanic like Streak where it costs more each time used within X seconds, would do fairly well to bring dodge roll into a balanced state.

They already nerfed Stamina Reg of nightblades by 30% (haste

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Once again, roll dodge is fine. There just needs to be some fixes to regen and cost reduction enchants.

Adding an increase to roll dodge for consecutive dodges would completely gimp stamina.

^This. I run a high weapon damage build atm which has not much regen, so I can't dodge roll much. Nerfing dodge roll would only hurt other builds. The problem lies with stacking many set bonues with stam regen combined with stacking percentages. The game is far from balanced since the removal of softcaps. Heck all the gear sets stayed the same with the addition of more % bonuses from cp. I don't know what zos was thinking. You can't remove softcaps unless you balance all the gear/ passives etc.

So as Stamina Build I shouldn't be capable of spamming my defense ability, even if I'm build for that?
Then I expect the same thing for shields, the major defense of Magicka builds.
You can spam it without even thinking about your magicka and at least in duels it makes you nearly untouchable.

Since everyone is able to dodge, Stamina builds should get a descent Shield, scaling like hardened ward.

There are so many counters and if you time your abilities, dodge is completely useless, so I don't see the problem in it.
Turn down the wpn damage scaling and Regen builds are forced to drop something to deal good dmg.

Yes, same goes for everything, not just stam regen. Weapon Damage, Spell Damage, Stam regen, magica regen. Min maxing and stacking really high into a particular stat is contributing to the unbalance imo.

As an example, Blackwater blade is much more balanced because you are unable to increase your stats by a flat value from gear, so you are unable to stack and stack and stack some more. I'm not saying this is the solution, but I think the game should have less extremes then what it currently has.

I totally agree with you. And the biggest problem is when stacking one stat increases your defense (survivability) and your offense (damage). Templar (more magicka = more heals + higher magicka damage), Sors (more magicka = higher schields, more BE and higher damage), all meles (more stamina = more damage and more dodge-rolls). The damage should scale only with the weapon power/spell power. On top of that we need more options to increase armor resistance and after nirn nerf, spell resistance because both spell and armor penetration can bypass 50-70% of the the resistance. That means a tank is almost naked.

Soulac · July 2015

Bashev wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

It's pretty easy to survive as a permaroller, much more difficult to escape (compared to sorc). My VR4 NB bursts up to 3400 stamina regen. Imagine when I actually get some non-garbage gear and VR14 Cost reduction enchants.

That said, as shown in the video, when you get caught during the invulnerable time between rolls (or right after you are CC'ed before your break free goes through) you will die FAST!

It is easy to recognize that the skill cap on a stamina(especially NB) player is much higher than a caster is due to the number of "tweaks" that can be performed to help optimize your play that aren't available to casters. The margin for error is also less, and during any period of lag/bugs you're dead. A good number of my deaths on my NB these days come from getting stuck in charge and then blown up.

The flame whip spammer is usually pretty easily countered by fear + cloak.

I don't think they need to nerf dodge rolling at all, they only need to split out break free/dodge roll from stamina cost reduction enchants and nerf the hell out of regen in Cyrodiil atleast.

I agree with everything except the point about Flame Whip spammer being counterable by fear+cloak.

While you can survive one flame whip spammer (mostly thanks to nirn), each whip snares you down (and takes you out of stealth if you're trying to do that). Add in a jesus beam or two and you're done for.

The obvious solution here would be simply killing those people first, but the problem is that they are usually hiding behind block for the most of the encounter making it an impossibility, unless they react very slow when breaking fear (also keep in mind that going on offensive you're going to take a lot more dmg from all the dodgeable attacks as well).

It'll be interesting to see how things work out after the next patch, with nirn getting nerfed and whip/concealed getting fixed.

With nirn being adjusted and concealed/whip being changed i do look forward to more balancing by zos in terms of bringing stam down a touch. Currently there are far too many benefits for stam users over magicka. the champion system has tons of passives for helping stam users pull very high burst dps or long sustained high dps.

Overall next big update will be very fun!

I think the first thing would be nerf the 30% stamina regen that NBs have. That's an absurd amount for a passive. 10% is much more reasonable. I think that along with an increase to the amount of stamina it costs for dodge roll, or a mechanic like Streak where it costs more each time used within X seconds, would do fairly well to bring dodge roll into a balanced state.

They already nerfed Stamina Reg of nightblades by 30% (haste

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Once again, roll dodge is fine. There just needs to be some fixes to regen and cost reduction enchants.

Adding an increase to roll dodge for consecutive dodges would completely gimp stamina.

^This. I run a high weapon damage build atm which has not much regen, so I can't dodge roll much. Nerfing dodge roll would only hurt other builds. The problem lies with stacking many set bonues with stam regen combined with stacking percentages. The game is far from balanced since the removal of softcaps. Heck all the gear sets stayed the same with the addition of more % bonuses from cp. I don't know what zos was thinking. You can't remove softcaps unless you balance all the gear/ passives etc.

So as Stamina Build I shouldn't be capable of spamming my defense ability, even if I'm build for that?
Then I expect the same thing for shields, the major defense of Magicka builds.
You can spam it without even thinking about your magicka and at least in duels it makes you nearly untouchable.

Since everyone is able to dodge, Stamina builds should get a descent Shield, scaling like hardened ward.

There are so many counters and if you time your abilities, dodge is completely useless, so I don't see the problem in it.
Turn down the wpn damage scaling and Regen builds are forced to drop something to deal good dmg.

Yes, same goes for everything, not just stam regen. Weapon Damage, Spell Damage, Stam regen, magica regen. Min maxing and stacking really high into a particular stat is contributing to the unbalance imo.

As an example, Blackwater blade is much more balanced because you are unable to increase your stats by a flat value from gear, so you are unable to stack and stack and stack some more. I'm not saying this is the solution, but I think the game should have less extremes then what it currently has.

I totally agree with you. And the biggest problem is when stacking one stat increases your defense (survivability) and your offense (damage). Templar (more magicka = more heals + higher magicka damage), Sors (more magicka = higher schields, more BE and higher damage), all meles (more stamina = more damage and more dodge-rolls). The damage should scale only with the weapon power/spell power. On top of that we need more options to increase armor resistance and after nirn nerf, spell resistance because both spell and armor penetration can bypass 50-70% of the the resistance. That means a tank is almost naked.

Just cause your Stamina pool is bigger, doesn't mean you can dodge more.
Your amount of possible dodges is based on your recovery, which doesn't increase your offense.

So unlike Magicka builds you have to push one stat for damage and an another stat for defense.
Dodge doesn't scale with your amount of stamina and the HoTs are too low to be called a real defense..

Bashev · July 2015

Soulac wrote: »

Just cause your Stamina pool is bigger, doesn't mean you can dodge more.

It means. It is not efficient as a stamina regen build but still increase the number of your dodge rolls. And during the increased amount of the dodge rolls you still regenerate some stamina which is less than a stamina regen build. It really depends how long is the fight but for NB is easier to achieve a reasonable stamina regen without sacrificing a lot of damage. Thats is why the best pvp stamina builds are NBs.

Rylana · July 2015

@Sypher

I aint got any beef with ya or anything, but could you stop making vids for a while >_>

Not cause they aint good and not cause I dont appreciate creative gameplay.

But every time you make a video... over 9000 people copy you and for the next week its "what sypher did on stream/youtube last week" Usually done poorly, usually by some really bad player that then sends over 100 ragetells when they die with some kind of ego complex blahblahblah.

>_> I dunno, not your fault I guess, but ffs, cull the fanboys some. -.-

Raizin · July 2015

i dont know, this is like ppl flaming and hating me in pms that i m *** nub who uses mist form with shields and rocks (enviroment) to troll them and eventualy kill them... (like this dk yesterday who went on angry rant on me + reporting me for god knows what)

Ok, sorry that i try to maximaze my class and its possibilites as DPS templar...

Just fu all of ya, pathetic ppl rly...

Goes same for Sypher, if he can rolldoge like a boss and kill ppl - while maximazing possibilities of his class to do so, then whats wrong with that

? Some ppl here asking ZoS to fix "Sypher" skill i feel like

- balance it more

or smthing... just l2p scrubs

sorry for eng, i just woke up

btw good video

*

Bromburak · July 2015

Rylana wrote: »

But every time you make a video... over 9000 people copy you and for the next week its "what sypher did on stream/youtube last week" Usually done poorly, usually by some really bad player that then sends over 100 ragetells when they die with some kind of ego complex blahblahblah.

They don't learn how to play this game anyway because they are template junkies and pretty bad clones with no confidence.

Self made cannon fodder.

Quantine · July 2015

Hm, nevermind, not sure..

Oh, and nice vid, Sypher

NukeAllTheThings · July 2015

Rylana wrote: »

@Sypher

I aint got any beef with ya or anything, but could you stop making vids for a while >_>

Not cause they aint good and not cause I dont appreciate creative gameplay.

But every time you make a video... over 9000 people copy you and for the next week its "what sypher did on stream/youtube last week" Usually done poorly, usually by some really bad player that then sends over 100 ragetells when they die with some kind of ego complex blahblahblah.

>_> I dunno, not your fault I guess, but ffs, cull the fanboys some. -.-

Nooooooooo!!!!! I request more videos with new gear. Every time one of those are released I can bank a few hundred thousand in gold from these people

Bashev · July 2015

Quantine wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Just cause your Stamina pool is bigger, doesn't mean you can dodge more.

It means. It is not efficient as a stamina regen build but still increase the number of your dodge rolls. And during the increased amount of the dodge rolls you still regenerate some stamina which is less than a stamina regen build. It really depends how long is the fight but for NB is easier to achieve a reasonable stamina regen without sacrificing a lot of damage. Thats is why the best pvp stamina builds are NBs.

Huh, dodge roll costs a percentage of your stamina not a fixed amount of stamina as far as I know (correct me if I am wrong) .... that's why if you can regen more stamina over time, you can dodge more, but max stamina doesn't matter for this... so as Soulac said, you need to push stamina recovery to make your defense work.

Oh, and nice vid, Sypher

Yes I will correct you. You are wrong. It is a fixed amount (around 4k at VR14) without any reduction.

Quantine · July 2015

Bashev wrote: »

Quantine wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Just cause your Stamina pool is bigger, doesn't mean you can dodge more.

It means. It is not efficient as a stamina regen build but still increase the number of your dodge rolls. And during the increased amount of the dodge rolls you still regenerate some stamina which is less than a stamina regen build. It really depends how long is the fight but for NB is easier to achieve a reasonable stamina regen without sacrificing a lot of damage. Thats is why the best pvp stamina builds are NBs.

Huh, dodge roll costs a percentage of your stamina not a fixed amount of stamina as far as I know (correct me if I am wrong) .... that's why if you can regen more stamina over time, you can dodge more, but max stamina doesn't matter for this... so as Soulac said, you need to push stamina recovery to make your defense work.

Oh, and nice vid, Sypher

Yes I will correct you. You are wrong. It is a fixed amount (around 4k at VR14) without any reduction.

Yeah, I was not sure anymore, I think I mixed it up and deleted it myself not to confuse anyone, sorry

Soulac · July 2015

Bashev wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Just cause your Stamina pool is bigger, doesn't mean you can dodge more.

It means. It is not efficient as a stamina regen build but still increase the number of your dodge rolls. And during the increased amount of the dodge rolls you still regenerate some stamina which is less than a stamina regen build. It really depends how long is the fight but for NB is easier to achieve a reasonable stamina regen without sacrificing a lot of damage. Thats is why the best pvp stamina builds are NBs.

Stamina Reg pushs your defense a lot more than Stamina and that's a fact.

With more stamina you have the option to roll once or twice more in the begin of a fight, but that's not the standard.
Most fights take some time and then Stamina recovery will decide.

The boost on defense based on your Stamina pool is just too low and nothing compared to stacking Magicka.

Of course it will take longer before you run out and you will Reg Stamina in this time, but since you stack Stamina your Reg is lower and to notice any real difference you need to boost your pool by a lot.
3k more stamina won't really let you feel a difference, but 3k more Magicka is most likely a boost of over 1k and with all passives and as a sorc it's probably over 1.5k.

DDuke · July 2015

Soulac wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Just cause your Stamina pool is bigger, doesn't mean you can dodge more.

It means. It is not efficient as a stamina regen build but still increase the number of your dodge rolls. And during the increased amount of the dodge rolls you still regenerate some stamina which is less than a stamina regen build. It really depends how long is the fight but for NB is easier to achieve a reasonable stamina regen without sacrificing a lot of damage. Thats is why the best pvp stamina builds are NBs.

Stamina Reg pushs your defense a lot more than Stamina and that's a fact.

Sorry cat, I've got to interrupt you here :P

Stamina regen pushes your sustain* more than Stamina.

More stamina and more weapon dmg actually mean that your Vigor/Rally heals for a lot more, meaning your defenses are a lot stronger (atleast short term, until you run out of stamina).

Soulac · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Just cause your Stamina pool is bigger, doesn't mean you can dodge more.

It means. It is not efficient as a stamina regen build but still increase the number of your dodge rolls. And during the increased amount of the dodge rolls you still regenerate some stamina which is less than a stamina regen build. It really depends how long is the fight but for NB is easier to achieve a reasonable stamina regen without sacrificing a lot of damage. Thats is why the best pvp stamina builds are NBs.

Stamina Reg pushs your defense a lot more than Stamina and that's a fact.

Sorry cat, I've got to interrupt you here :P

Stamina regen pushes your sustain* more than Stamina.

More stamina and more weapon dmg actually mean that your Vigor/Rally heals for a lot more, meaning your defenses are a lot stronger (atleast short term, until you run out of stamina).

Sorry, but we speak about Stamina alone. I know it increases your heals by some amount, but if you push your Stamina for like 5k you won't get an insane difference on your heals.
Of course, in case you also push weapon dmg you will notice more defense.
But for pushing 5k Stamina you sacrifice most likely around 1k Stamina Reg, probably even more. Compare that.

Bashev · July 2015

Soulac wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Just cause your Stamina pool is bigger, doesn't mean you can dodge more.

It means. It is not efficient as a stamina regen build but still increase the number of your dodge rolls. And during the increased amount of the dodge rolls you still regenerate some stamina which is less than a stamina regen build. It really depends how long is the fight but for NB is easier to achieve a reasonable stamina regen without sacrificing a lot of damage. Thats is why the best pvp stamina builds are NBs.

Stamina Reg pushs your defense a lot more than Stamina and that's a fact.

Sorry cat, I've got to interrupt you here :P

Stamina regen pushes your sustain* more than Stamina.

More stamina and more weapon dmg actually mean that your Vigor/Rally heals for a lot more, meaning your defenses are a lot stronger (atleast short term, until you run out of stamina).

Sorry, but we speak about Stamina alone. I know it increases your heals by some amount, but if you push your Stamina for like 5k you won't get an insane different of your heals.
Of course, if you also push weapon dmg you will notice more defense.
But to push 5k Stamina you sacrifice most likely around 1k Stamina Reg, probably even more. Compare this.

Dont get me wrong, I know that stamina regen is better than stamina in terms for survivability. I just wanted to show that it should t be possible that one stat increases attack and defense at the same time. We need more diversity in the stats but that means a lot of rework should be done. ZoS should decrease some default stats increase the number of the glyphs that we can use in one piece and combine armor, weapon and jewelery glyphs in one glyph that can be use where you want.
Anyway I hope that most of you got my point.
@Sypher
Sorry that I spam your topic with some stupid thoughts. Thanks for the video!

DDuke · July 2015

Soulac wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Just cause your Stamina pool is bigger, doesn't mean you can dodge more.

It means. It is not efficient as a stamina regen build but still increase the number of your dodge rolls. And during the increased amount of the dodge rolls you still regenerate some stamina which is less than a stamina regen build. It really depends how long is the fight but for NB is easier to achieve a reasonable stamina regen without sacrificing a lot of damage. Thats is why the best pvp stamina builds are NBs.

Stamina Reg pushs your defense a lot more than Stamina and that's a fact.

Sorry cat, I've got to interrupt you here :P

Stamina regen pushes your sustain* more than Stamina.

More stamina and more weapon dmg actually mean that your Vigor/Rally heals for a lot more, meaning your defenses are a lot stronger (atleast short term, until you run out of stamina).

Sorry, but we speak about Stamina alone. I know it increases your heals by some amount, but if you push your Stamina for like 5k you won't get an insane difference on your heals.
Of course, in case you also push weapon dmg you will notice more defense.
But for pushing 5k Stamina you sacrifice most likely around 1k Stamina Reg, probably even more. Compare that.

Well, in the end it all comes down to what kind of opponent(s) you're facing and how long the fight lasts. If you run out of stamina during the fight, then arguably stamina regen would have contributed to your defense more. If you're at 50% stamina when fight ends, then arguably that stamina contributed more to your defense.

Also, 4k stamina is worth around one weapon damage set bonus, so it contributes to your offensive capacities as well.

Bottom line: it's not that simple, and I don't think comparisons can be made without proper context :P

Soulac · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Just cause your Stamina pool is bigger, doesn't mean you can dodge more.

It means. It is not efficient as a stamina regen build but still increase the number of your dodge rolls. And during the increased amount of the dodge rolls you still regenerate some stamina which is less than a stamina regen build. It really depends how long is the fight but for NB is easier to achieve a reasonable stamina regen without sacrificing a lot of damage. Thats is why the best pvp stamina builds are NBs.

Stamina Reg pushs your defense a lot more than Stamina and that's a fact.

Sorry cat, I've got to interrupt you here :P

Stamina regen pushes your sustain* more than Stamina.

More stamina and more weapon dmg actually mean that your Vigor/Rally heals for a lot more, meaning your defenses are a lot stronger (atleast short term, until you run out of stamina).

Sorry, but we speak about Stamina alone. I know it increases your heals by some amount, but if you push your Stamina for like 5k you won't get an insane difference on your heals.
Of course, in case you also push weapon dmg you will notice more defense.
But for pushing 5k Stamina you sacrifice most likely around 1k Stamina Reg, probably even more. Compare that.

Well, in the end it all comes down to what kind of opponent(s) you're facing and how long the fight lasts. If you run out of stamina during the fight, then arguably stamina regen would have contributed to your defense more. If you're at 50% stamina when fight ends, then arguably that stamina contributed more to your defense.

Also, 4k stamina is worth around one weapon damage set bonus, so it contributes to your offensive capacities as well.

Bottom line: it's not that simple, and I don't think comparisons can be made without proper context :P

Well to get 4k Stamina you still sacrifice many other ressources, you can't deny that.
Also you don't need to compare it :P

Stamina stacking and Magicka stacking are totally different.
Both granting you the same damage scaling since the formula is basically the same, but defense wise..

Bromburak · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

More stamina and more weapon dmg actually mean that your Vigor/Rally heals for a lot more, meaning your defenses are a lot stronger (atleast short term, until you run out of stamina).

Who defined 2H as a standard in this discussion?

DDuke wrote:

Well, in the end it all comes down to what kind of opponent(s) you're facing and how long the fight lasts. If you run out of stamina during the fight, then arguably stamina regen would have contributed to your defense more.

If you run out of stamina you in panic mode and this will always hurt your resource management anyway.