Are Night Blades the best balanced Class?

OdinForge

olsborg wrote: »

Stamina nbs are ooverpowered to say the least, with 4k+ weapon dmg combining this with sneak attack and cloak with hit and run and permdodge its hard to miss this as a fact. The class skills they need that cost mana, ie Cloak, fear etc, dont scale of magicka or spelldmg, they are utility spells or cc spells that just need their required mana to cast to make them effective with their stamina/weapon dmg-build.

If you play this build/class correctly, you have much more potential for destruction then any other class.

Any class can get high damage and stealth attack, not specific to Nightblades. And the Nightblades that do spec like that, cannot dodge troll or cloak a lot. I've been instagibbed by every class at this point from stealth.

JDar

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Nightblades, on the other hand, lack a powerful self heal, they lack an aoe root or proper aoe control ability, they dont have any defense against ranged attacks like reflective scales provides for dk's, and they dont have a damage shield.

None of that makes nightblades unbalanced. Just because a class has a ____ or doesn't have a _____ like X class does, doesn't matter. Nightblades, and classes in general, are not supposed to have the same combat mechanics as the other classes. That's why there are classes.

Nightblades who feel like those things are missing from the class aren't fighting the way nightblades were meant to fight.

Those of us who say things like, well my class doesn't have a _____ should be careful what you wish for. We will end up with 1 class but 4 different animations.

Zanen

JDar wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Nightblades, on the other hand, lack a powerful self heal, they lack an aoe root or proper aoe control ability, they dont have any defense against ranged attacks like reflective scales provides for dk's, and they dont have a damage shield.

None of that makes nightblades unbalanced. Just because a class has a ____ or doesn't have a _____ like X class does, doesn't matter. Nightblades, and classes in general, are not supposed to have the same combat mechanics as the other classes. That's why there are classes.

Nightblades who feel like those things are missing from the class aren't fighting the way nightblades were meant to fight.

Those of us who say things like, well my class doesn't have a _____ should be careful what you wish for. We will end up with 1 class but 4 different animations.

This is true, but the differences in the classes mean that other adjustments effect classes differently. There are a lot of known issues outside of the classes themselves that will have a profound impact on class balance if and when they're addressed.

Not having a class shield for example makes mitigation significantly more important than it is for a class that stacks shields.

RavenSworn

Zanen wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Nightblades, on the other hand, lack a powerful self heal, they lack an aoe root or proper aoe control ability, they dont have any defense against ranged attacks like reflective scales provides for dk's, and they dont have a damage shield.

None of that makes nightblades unbalanced. Just because a class has a ____ or doesn't have a _____ like X class does, doesn't matter. Nightblades, and classes in general, are not supposed to have the same combat mechanics as the other classes. That's why there are classes.

Nightblades who feel like those things are missing from the class aren't fighting the way nightblades were meant to fight.

Those of us who say things like, well my class doesn't have a _____ should be careful what you wish for. We will end up with 1 class but 4 different animations.

This is true, but the differences in the classes mean that other adjustments effect classes differently. There are a lot of known issues outside of the classes themselves that will have a profound impact on class balance if and when they're addressed.

Not having a class shield for example makes mitigation significantly more important than it is for a class that stacks shields.

But that comes back to the original thought, Nightblades are meant to be played with a certain gamestyle. Changing any skills outside of class skills doesnt just affect the NBs, it affects all classes.

I don't see NBs having class shields because their gameplay is different. thats why there are classes. damage mitigation can be done differently.

Zanen

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Zanen wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Nightblades, on the other hand, lack a powerful self heal, they lack an aoe root or proper aoe control ability, they dont have any defense against ranged attacks like reflective scales provides for dk's, and they dont have a damage shield.

None of that makes nightblades unbalanced. Just because a class has a ____ or doesn't have a _____ like X class does, doesn't matter. Nightblades, and classes in general, are not supposed to have the same combat mechanics as the other classes. That's why there are classes.

Nightblades who feel like those things are missing from the class aren't fighting the way nightblades were meant to fight.

Those of us who say things like, well my class doesn't have a _____ should be careful what you wish for. We will end up with 1 class but 4 different animations.

This is true, but the differences in the classes mean that other adjustments effect classes differently. There are a lot of known issues outside of the classes themselves that will have a profound impact on class balance if and when they're addressed.

Not having a class shield for example makes mitigation significantly more important than it is for a class that stacks shields.

But that comes back to the original thought, Nightblades are meant to be played with a certain gamestyle. Changing any skills outside of class skills doesnt just affect the NBs, it affects all classes.

I don't see NBs having class shields because their gameplay is different. thats why there are classes. damage mitigation can be done differently.

Yeah, I agree and don't want NB to become more like DK or whatever.

But we can't have any meaningful discussion about class balance until all the broken things that weigh on it are fixed, and those things may effect all classes but they don't effect all classes equally. If they nerf Nirn as they've indicated they intend, that will have zero negative effect on a shield stacking sorc but will radically increase it's potential damage, while the stamina NB will take substantially more damage and won't deal any more.

There needs to be a very comprehensive mechanical bug fix pass followed by a balance pass before any sort of meaningful answer to the thread topic can be found.

There are literally dozens of known issues/planned changes that effect class balance and dozens more that ZOS hasn't even commented on at the moment. Many of these issues have been pending since PC beta and others since 1.6.

I was very much in the wait and see camp prior to console launch because I believed they were trying to relaunch a well-patched game, but very few fixes were actually implemented and they're now ridiculously overdue.

Regarding the other part of the question and build flexibility pretty much all the classes except Sorcerer are pretty flexible at the moment, but they all need to focus on one resource and have one build that outperforms, and probably always will.

Inactive Account

Some very good points of view getting expressed here. Some points brought up, I had not considered.

I welcome the insight into this topic.

Inactive Account

panemetcircenses wrote: »

nobertpaulb16_ESO wrote: »

YES, yes they are ( in some aspects). Although if you look at how the class is "laid out" they are, again to me, seeming to be very well balanced. May be instead of upping their power to be " competitive ", the other classes should be looked at and more closely tailored along the same lines.

From the devs' standpoint, though... wouldn't it be easier to bring 1 of 4 classes up to match the other three rather then bringing 3 of 4 classes down to match the one?

Easier, yes, but if, I repeat IF, Night Blades are actually the most well balanced of the classes, then There would be no point in adding one more " out-of-whack " class to the mix by just a quick tweek to it's mechanics..

I do understand that class balance is one of the most complex parts of any MMO and balance is never truly achieved. Things are added and then tweeked again, then taken away and replaced with something else, but I still feel that the Night Blade class has a very good , if not the best, framework; which the class is built up off of.

alakmir

Endurance wrote: »

1. stack weapon damage on everything even accessories
2. spam stam skills
3. finish off with magicka skills
4. hide/crouch & repeat from step 2

or 1. dodge roll
2. dodge roll
3.dodge roll
4. dodge roll
5. use ultimate (now u have weapon damage stacked + ultimate is charged )
6. hide/fear then hide
7. repeat 1

Aeeeek

F7sus4 wrote: »

And don't forget to use Agony. Read the death recap - it's your first weapon of choice for AoE situations.
</sarcasm>

Agony is really useful in solo PvE, and may even work in group PvE IF your squad has a strategy to avoid your Agony target. So useless for PUGs.
That full 30s lockdown is huge if it can be achieved.

Flameheart

Can't say much about PvP yet and NB magicka dps builds, but I played my NB as stamina dps and as magicka based healer.

Stamina NBs are something like kings of dps when it comes to melee dps in PvE, not sure for ranged dps. You should be able to watch your steps though...

NB healers might miss a true big instant heal, but Rapid Regeneration + Healing Springs + Refreshing Path + Funnel Health = pretty sick health bar filling.

Refreshing Path ticks for me for around 800 every 0,5 seconds (0,5 not 1 or 2...and that makes a big difference).
I saw Funnel Health ticks for over 4,5k.

Usualy alone RP and FH is sufficient to keep a whole group up in trash mob fights.

RP gives you 40% movement bonus, no need to dodge any red circles (only if slowed), just move out with grace.

While healing you are able to inflict around 3k to 5k dps by dotting a trash mob with Structured Entropy and dotting all other mobs of a trash group with RP + Funnel Health. The SE bonus provides a spell damage bonus that impacts both - healing and damage.

lathbury

Flameheart wrote: »

Can't say much about PvP yet and NB magicka dps builds, but I played my NB as stamina dps and as magicka based healer.

Stamina NBs are something like kings of dps when it comes to melee dps in PvE, not sure for ranged dps. You should be able to watch your steps though...

NB healers might miss a true big instant heal, but Rapid Regeneration + Healing Springs + Refreshing Path + Funnel Health = pretty sick health bar filling.

Refreshing Path ticks for me for around 800 every 0,5 seconds (0,5 not 1 or 2...and that makes a big difference).
I saw Funnel Health ticks for over 4,5k.

Usualy alone RP and FH is sufficient to keep a whole group up in trash mob fights.

RP gives you 40% movement bonus, no need to dodge any red circles (only if slowed), just move out with grace.

While healing you are able to inflict around 3k to 5k dps by dotting a trash mob with Structured Entropy and dotting all other mobs of a trash group with RP + Funnel Health. The SE bonus provides a spell damage bonus that impacts both - healing and damage.

stamina nb's the king of dps every dk pyromage just got a good lol

Flameheart

lathbury wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Can't say much about PvP yet and NB magicka dps builds, but I played my NB as stamina dps and as magicka based healer.

Stamina NBs are something like kings of dps when it comes to melee dps in PvE, not sure for ranged dps. You should be able to watch your steps though...

NB healers might miss a true big instant heal, but Rapid Regeneration + Healing Springs + Refreshing Path + Funnel Health = pretty sick health bar filling.

Refreshing Path ticks for me for around 800 every 0,5 seconds (0,5 not 1 or 2...and that makes a big difference).
I saw Funnel Health ticks for over 4,5k.

Usualy alone RP and FH is sufficient to keep a whole group up in trash mob fights.

RP gives you 40% movement bonus, no need to dodge any red circles (only if slowed), just move out with grace.

While healing you are able to inflict around 3k to 5k dps by dotting a trash mob with Structured Entropy and dotting all other mobs of a trash group with RP + Funnel Health. The SE bonus provides a spell damage bonus that impacts both - healing and damage.

stamina nb's the king of dps every dk pyromage just got a good lol

I have no idea about the dps of a magicka based DK nowadays, but this dps seems to be very solid for me:

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/nb-dual-wieldbow-pve-dps-build-1-6-6/

Spindleclutch – Blood Spawn: 22,9k

Aetherian Archive – Varlariel: 18,9k DPS

Sanctum Ophidia – Serpent Hardmode: 14,5k DPS

...although it depends a lot on the type of encounter.

Inactive Account

So, many of the posts being written that say Night Blades have great, or top Dps, seem to be relating to PvP more so than PvE. Am I reading this right?

And I am wondering if these builds are in the " Glass Cannon " genera?

I am curious as to your survive-ability with these top DPS builds.

Just wondering.

F7sus4

nobertpaulb16_ESO wrote: »

So, many of the posts being written that say Night Blades have great, or top Dps, seem to be relating to PvP more so than PvE. Am I reading this right?

Yeah, as someone already said: "Magicka NB in PvP: yeah! Magicka NB in PvE: meh..."

Inactive Account

F7sus4 wrote: »

nobertpaulb16_ESO wrote: »

So, many of the posts being written that say Night Blades have great, or top Dps, seem to be relating to PvP more so than PvE. Am I reading this right?

Yeah, as someone already said: "Magicka NB in PvP: yeah! Magicka NB in PvE: meh..."

@F7sus4 What"s your take on the " Glass Cannon " part ?