A unbiased Nirnhoned/Reinforced poll

Rylana · June 2015

No prefixing, no putting words in mouth, includes an option derived from another thread. (the concept of making reinforced work the same way nirn currently does, to give options vs physical damage builds)

Source thread here http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/169429/why-i-dont-want-nirnhoned-fixed/p1

For simplicity of the idea presented by @vortexman11 , I used the Reinforced trait as the physical equivalent

This is how you make a poll, guys. Also, I put it here because I figured while the mechanics forum was probably more proper, I wanted to get a larger sample size.

Septimus_Magna · June 2015

Nerf Nirn, Buff Reinforced

Nirn needs to get nerfed, at least for medium and heavy armor.
Reinforced needs to get buffed to make it useful.

Rylana · June 2015

Keep Nirnhoned as-is, but change reinforced to apply globally to all armor pieces/trait used as Nirn does now

My position on this is simple. Nirnhoned is the only thing standing between full glass magicka builds being insta one shot monsters.

Current TTK on weapon damage/stamina specs is nearly what Magicka based would be if Nirn was removed.

In the interest of lowering TTK (or maintaining par with current magicka trends), I believe reinforced should be changed to mirror the effects of Nirnhoned, except for with Physical resistances only.

This way a player would have to choose going all-in on magicka "immunity" all-in on physical "immunity" or being less susceptible to both, but in a balanced way that doesnt make the builds already existing deprecated.

With the move towards stamina dodge roll builds being used in conjunction with high impact all physical damage setups, there needs to be a check in the balance, else that spec will become very alpha once some other changes (whip, detect potions, and the like) go in. All of its hard counters are being removes, so we must address physical damage NOW, before it becomes a bigger problem than the sharpened bug. Armor penetration needs a counter, badly.

Attorneyatlawl · June 2015

Nerf Nirn, Buff Reinforced

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Nirn needs to get nerfed, at least for medium and heavy armor.
Reinforced needs to get buffed to make it useful.

This is also my stance. I feel like nirnhoned should see a small percentage reduction when used on medium and heavy armor types, and reinforced should be a higher percentage than nirn but function the same otherwise as nirn, the reasoning being that we have Harness Magicka, but there's no such thing as Harness Stamina (in other words we have access to a strong, high-duration (26s) bubble with no weapon requirement or class required, to everyone... but nothing similar exists for physical shielding).

Rylana · June 2015

Keep Nirnhoned as-is, but change reinforced to apply globally to all armor pieces/trait used as Nirn does now

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Nirn needs to get nerfed, at least for medium and heavy armor.
Reinforced needs to get buffed to make it useful.

This is also my stance. I feel like nirnhoned should see a small percentage reduction when used on medium and heavy armor types, and reinforced should be a higher percentage than nirn but function the same otherwise as nirn, the reasoning being that we have Harness Magicka, but there's no such thing as Harness Stamina (in other words we have access to a strong, high-duration (26s) bubble with no weapon requirement or class required, to everyone... but nothing similar exists for physical shielding).

So to keep it brief you favor

7LA nirn being almost completely immune to magicka, but woefully susceptible to physical
7LA reinforced being a middle ground of moderate resists to both, but no immunity

7MA nirn being highly resistant to magicka, but somewhat weak to physical
7MA reinforced being somewhat weak to magicka, but highly resistant to physical

7HA nirn being a middle ground of moderate resists to both, but no immunity
7HA reinforced being woefully susceptible to magicka, but immune to physical

Sound about right? I do like the concept, until you put wards, blocking, and roll dodge into the equation =/ (7MA Nirn would still be king of the mountain i reckon)

Suntzu1414 · June 2015

Keep Nirnhoned as-is, but change reinforced to apply globally to all armor pieces/trait used as Nirn does now

With the current SD / WD stacking meta.
renforced should get buffed...the only problem i see..
I don't want to go back to --- ALL Skirts...with everyone in LA (and Reinforced).

Nirn has to be nerfed.
the pendulum has moved too far..against magica (our previous meta).
A Nerf on Nirn , and Buff Reinforced . should help game balance....(it it ever happens)

Kill Well
ST

Tankqull · June 2015

Other Solution

other, as nerfiing nirn or buffing reinforced doesent solve the problem.

my attempt of a solution would be:
1. reinstall in cyrodiiil the 50% HP increase on statpoints put into life as an incentive to reduce the burst potential
2. bring nirn down to a balanced value, change reinforced to briing comparable values with a minimum flat value it grants for sure even if the % below value is below that threshold lets say 10% but a minimum of 1000 e.g. (this is ment to bring light armor up in its defensive viability as it currently provides none and a 10% increasemnt of none still remains none)
3. further reduction of cyrodiil dmg additional 5-10%
4. get defensive behavior back in line (to get rid of the unkillable opponents),
a) add the same 50% increase of bolt escape to roll dodging,
b) make a shield stacked on top of another one reduced by 50% in its value (fix the bloody overflow bug alongside!!!!!), another option would be some kind of bleed through - 70% of an attack is covered by the shield 30% bleed through to the healthpool
c) change the entire block behaviour, every blocked attack lowers the value the dmg of the next attack is reduced(resembling some kind of blocking fatigue respectivly geting out of balance or what ever roleplay/sience explanation suits you the most) the dmg reduction is based upon the armor typ worn heavy armor 2% per attack, medium/light 5% per attack, this reduction is stacked so you will reach a spot where blocking doesent reduce dmg anymore, if the block stance has been left it recovers with 2% every second. [this wouldnt change pve much would just require the tank to lift blocking inbetween two attacks of the boss to stay at his max dmg reduction - while significantly effecting pvp blocking]

eliisra · June 2015

Nerf Nirn, Buff Reinforced

Nerfing nirn only slightly, while buffing reinforced, make them more equal. That could work.

My only issue is really how this would make other traits obsolete. You would be forced to always used crafted, because anything besides nirn or reinforced is suicide. Sort of like old impen or todays nirn. They always manage to make one trait better than any 5- set bonus. But I'm to simpleton to come up with another solution lol.

It's pretty unbalanced now. My NB using Concealed Weapon on nirnstacked bodies hits for like 2-3k. Than change to stamina and I do 7-9k dmg with Surprise Attack instead. Not only does weapon dmg go higher, but it's also much harder to mitigate physical dmg. I'm tired of having 5 Steel Tornado on my death recap every single day. Even basic insta-cast ranged skills like Flying Blade can do over 10k on a player in heavy armor with resolve up.

But if we nerf nirn to much, than basic magicka abilities will also do to much dmg and PvP will be even more unbearable. Imagine damage buffed Proxi if we didn't run around with 30-50k spell res

Valnas · June 2015

I would be ok if they let penetration (spell) get up to the 32-35k range with current mechanics, since physical penetration is at that lvl.

hammayolettuce · June 2015

Keep Nirnhoned as-is, but change reinforced to apply globally to all armor pieces/trait used as Nirn does now

I love pvping in blackwater blade because of the increased time to kill. It makes for some really great fights. That's all I want.

Draxys · June 2015

Nerf Nirn, Buff Reinforced

I'm in the "slightly nerf nirn, buff the hell out of reinforced" boat. And give us more health and maybe softcaps.

Agrippa_Invisus · June 2015

Keep Nirnhoned as-is, but change reinforced to apply globally to all armor pieces/trait used as Nirn does now

No matter how they actually end up changing it, the TTL has to go up, and the TTK has to be slower.

The problem is this also affects lag by players not being cleared out of areas (such as keeps) when there's a large concentration.

The lag and the balance issues go hand in hand, and I frankly doubt the ability of ZOS to even fix the lag at this point. I think the code's gotten away from them in the year+ since release.

Iyas · June 2015

Keep Nirnhoned as-is, but change reinforced to apply globally to all armor pieces/trait used as Nirn does now

keep nirnhoned and buff reinforced. The ttk is already too low

Hypertionb14_ESO · June 2015

making Reinforced work like nirn would see the game degrade back to the pre 1.6 days when you still had light armor tanks.'

Nirns mechanics of boosting the overall rating are fine honestly, its just more than 6x too strong per piece.... (25% on one)

reduce it to like 5% per gold pc. it will still be a massive bonus even with just one pc that would be better than reinforced for spell resistance.

think about DPS armor builds, Infused on the pcs that give the biggest enchantment and Divines on the other pcs.. i can imagine tanky builds using reinforced on the heavy pcs and nirnhoned on the smaller pcs in the same way.

either way, Doubling your spell resist after the flat buffs take effect with just 4 pcs containing a single trait is pretty silly. TTK issues are better tackled by changing other things rather than buffing traits.

umagon · June 2015

Other Solution

I think they should just take away the percent values and use flat numbers for nirinhoned. For armor I think heavy armor needs to be modified so that no matter how many armor debuffs (if you want to call them that) are applied the value can only be reduced down to 20k at the most. Basically they need to just set hard floors and ceiling number values. I can understand why they want to use percentage values because it makes things easier when they scale numbers up or down. But it's a lazy way of handling the problem and someone is going to figure out away to beat the floating system. Hard numbers make that nearly impossible.

Xsorus · June 2015

Change nothing

Reinforced can't be made like Nirn because then every Magicka User would just plop full Physical Resist and use Harness Magicka to cover Spell Damage.

Basically make Magicka users impossible to kill.

Think of a sorc with full light armor and 50k Physical resist...Good Luck killing that.

k2blader · June 2015

@ OP, you have a talent for making almost every post sound like you need some RL slaps. :-)

Anyhow, the 2nd option would certainly not work because it'd give too much advantage to heavier armor users.

vortexman11 · June 2015

Keep Nirnhoned as-is, but change reinforced to apply globally to all armor pieces/trait used as Nirn does now

k2blader wrote: »

@ OP, you have a talent for making almost every post sound like you need some RL slaps. :-)

Anyhow, the 2nd option would certainly not work because it'd give too much advantage to heavier armor users.

Advantage at what? Taking damage? Heavy armour has no sustain, and currently you can get enough armour penetration to make 7/7 heavy useless without even thinking.

Germtrocity · June 2015

Nerf Nirn, Buff Reinforced

I think that nirn should be around 20-30% less effective than it is right now and reinforced should be brought up to the level that nirn is brought down to for physical damage.
Penetration (spell and physical) needs to be easier to stack. i.e make more armor set bonuses that give extra penetration in both categories, so that instead of just pure stats and weapon/spell damage, people also have to take into consideration their level of armor or spell penetration (as well as regeneration of course). Players also need high scaling attribute points into health, or a higher health bonus in Cyrodiil.
Basically make PvP builds more dynamic by adding another thing that players can choose to stack into.

Also, the sharpened mace penetration bug needs to be patched.

Germtrocity · June 2015

Nerf Nirn, Buff Reinforced

Xsorus wrote: »

Reinforced can't be made like Nirn because then every Magicka User would just plop full Physical Resist and use Harness Magicka to cover Spell Damage.

Basically make Magicka users impossible to kill.

Think of a sorc with full light armor and 50k Physical resist...Good Luck killing that.

That is basically exactly how nirn is working right now against many magicka users.
That is why penetration needs to be a bigger thing so that these traits can be more or less negated.

(Personal opinion incoming) It is always sorcerers with you. You have such a strong hatred for sorcerers that you can't even sit aside and realize how nirn is basically pigeonholing other builds into the stamina FOTM rocking full nirn. Nirn literally destroys the viability of other magicka build classes.

frozywozy · June 2015

Nerf Nirn, Buff Reinforced

It's either Nerf Nirn, Buff Reinforced OR.....

Keep Nirn as it is, buff Reinforced and nerd Shield Stacking.

How to nerf Shield Stacking ?

- Reduce the strength of all shield abilities in the game significantly
- LA should not only give armor but also come with a stat that increase overall shield strength
- Release new gear bonuses to increase overall shield strength

Waylander · June 2015

Germtrocity wrote: »

I think that nirn should be around 20-30% less effective than it is right now and reinforced should be brought up to the level that nirn is brought down to for physical damage.
Penetration (spell and physical) needs to be easier to stack. i.e make more armor set bonuses that give extra penetration in both categories, so that instead of just pure stats and weapon/spell damage, people also have to take into consideration their level of armor or spell penetration (as well as regeneration of course). Players also need high scaling attribute points into health, or a higher health bonus in Cyrodiil.
Basically make PvP builds more dynamic by adding another thing that players can choose to stack into.

Also, the sharpened mace penetration bug needs to be patched.

Agreed ^

Also address the issues around infinite sustain. If we increase TTK, increase resistance/lower damage, we are going to have a lot of stalemates where you (1) dont have the burst to kill your opponent or (2) can not diminish your opponents resources enough to allow you to cc and dps them before they can heal. With the combination of racial passives, vamp/ww, drinks and tri-pots, everyone can have a decent sustain build without sacrificing much in the way of dps etc.

reften · June 2015

Nerf Nirn, Buff Reinforced

An

And, I use 5 nirm pieces right now, it's just too powerful. Needs to be nerfed. Stam builds are just dominating.

noobfury · June 2015

Nerf Nirn, Buff Reinforced

I have never used Nirn . I use all reinforced HA but recently decided to make some nirn pieces to increase my survivability .

The reason I vote to nerf it a little bit even though I'm planning on using a few pieces is because I find it somewhat strange that out of all CP skills there is not one that buffs defense against physical attack. Yes you can increase whatever armor your wearing percent wise but it's not the same as say being able to buff spell resistance or elemental resistance using CP.

Why should you have Spell Shield ( which I have points in) give 25% spell resist but no Damage Shield ?
Seems a little one sided IMHO.

You can buff any kind of spell resistance with CP and combine it with nirn. You can buff physical damage and penetration with CP but the only resists you can get are poison disease and magic, there is nothing for other physical attacks at all. It's the only thing in the entire CP line that has been left out.

danno8 · June 2015

Nerf Nirn, do not change reinforced

...and bring back soft caps. A more gradual curve would be welcomed too.

Roselle · June 2015

Nerf Nirn, Buff Reinforced

You probably should go to bed.

Snit · June 2015

Nerf Nirn, do not change reinforced

Deciding your armor traits should be an interesting decision. Complexity and variety make character builds better. If one or two traits are unquestionably superior to all others, the game as a whole is a little bit worse.

Xsorus · June 2015

Change nothing

Germtrocity wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Reinforced can't be made like Nirn because then every Magicka User would just plop full Physical Resist and use Harness Magicka to cover Spell Damage.

Basically make Magicka users impossible to kill.

Think of a sorc with full light armor and 50k Physical resist...Good Luck killing that.

That is basically exactly how nirn is working right now against many magicka users.
That is why penetration needs to be a bigger thing so that these traits can be more or less negated.

(Personal opinion incoming) It is always sorcerers with you. You have such a strong hatred for sorcerers that you can't even sit aside and realize how nirn is basically pigeonholing other builds into the stamina FOTM rocking full nirn. Nirn literally destroys the viability of other magicka build classes.

Only stamina users with nirn aren't impossible to kill, they can still be killed with magicka builds and they arent immune to physical builds because you can ignore most armor in this game. Also pen in this game doesn't need a buff either, the very fact that nirn is bloody required to stack 40k to 50k resist just so you can have some form of mitigation is a problem, if they nerf nirn they need to nerf the penetration traits and stats in this game

As for your personal opinion, my personal opinion I find it amusing that you think anyone is falling for the "I'm only trying to help other magicka builds out" ***.. And no class is pingeoned holed into stamina right now, in fact if anything they are pushed into magicka builds. Dragonknights are currently more common as magicka users and we certainly aren't hurting against stamina builds right now. Templars also again while extremely good at stamina builds I will say judging by the shear amount of Jesus beams I eat is say they aren't bring pingeoend holed into stamina. Sorcs are certainly not pushed into stamina based builds right now.. That leaves nightBlades which are about the closest thing to being stamina heavy right now, and it isn't because magicka nb is *** eithe and it has nothing to do with nirn, they simply have amazing syngery with stamina thanks to their passives and stamina morphs they got in the patch.

so I stick with what I said, they shouldn't buff the physical trait overpowering the most powerful class right (sorc). At least not till we know what's in the next balance patch (which could bring sorcs in line)

Joy_Division · June 2015

The Elder Scrolls Online

A unbiased Nirnhoned/Reinforced poll

A unbiased Nirnhoned/Reinforced poll 150 votes